trade idea revisited: rondo for westrbook

[D.o.s.]

  Rondo would help KD a little, getting him some easier looks and (more importantly) not taking more shots than Durant. He'd also probably improve the offense for the other players on the court. I also don't know how much improvement you'll see from Westbrook, who's improved a little but not a lot over the past 2-3 years. He's younger than Rondo but Rondo's still in his 20s, he's not going to fall off of a cliff anytime soon. And I doubt that it's the case that OKX wouldn't have seen any improvement in their play in last year's playoffs with better point guard play. I don't want the trade and I doubt OKC does the trade but they could easily be a better team if they did.

Yeah, that was a little hyperbolic of me-- healthy Rondo's an obvious upgrade over Reggie Jackson, for sure.

The number of shots Durant takes bit seems to be getting overblown, though-- This season, with Westbrook, KD was averaging just under 19 shots a game (over 25 games), and in the 19 games without him he's averaging just over 21.


More importantly, with Westbrook they're 24-4. Without him they're 11-6.

I think RW gets the same criticism that Rondo gets in reverse--that he shoots too often and doesn't look for his teammates enough. Just like with most of the Rondo critiques, though, it doesn't really hold up. OKC desperately needs both guys shooting over 20 times a game to really scare the hell out of teams in the postseason.

they are 11-6 but haven't lost in a lifetime it seems. They are on fire right now. Beat Miami today also without alot of fuzz.

RW does damage to the team by not only butting heads with KD but also not passing it to guys like Ibaka and Lamb enough. And these guys should get more passes to divesity the offense

The Celtics on the other hand, could really use a go to guy.

For me its a win win situation. I bet if we had RW , we would start winning more games then expected. With Rondo, OKC would just keep trucking along and KD having the green light to be the man

I agree that the Thunder need to diversify their offense, but I place that pretty squarely on Scott Brooks.

If Durant and Westbrook were really at each other as much as you seem to think, OKC would've let go of Westbrook instead of Harden.

Fact is, Westbrook is brutally underrated by many casual basketball fans. The guy is putting up numbers we haven't seen since Oscar Robertson, but because he's not passing the ball to Saint Kevin the Anointed and standing in the corner on every possession he gets demonized.

And, for what it's worth, Durant has, over their overlapping careers, used more possessions than Westbrook. Durant has, over their overlapping careers, a higher usage rate than Westbrook. He has, so far, taken four more shots without Westbrook.

Can anyone honestly suggest that taking Westbrook off the team is worth it because KD takes four more shots?

Can we please let this notion that Westbrook is holding back Durant die?

[Endless Paradise]

RW does damage to the team by not only butting heads with KD

Says who?  They're basically best friends; they love each other.  Westbrook even just praised him as the MVP on Twitter after his 54-point game.

but also not passing it to guys like Ibaka

You mean his most effective pick and roll partner whose success is directly related to Westbrook's presence?  The same guy who was floundering for quite some time in Westbrook's absence before KD started on his historic streak?  RW's not passing it to him enough?

[Endless Paradise]

Can we please let this notion that Westbrook is holding back Durant die?

Also, this.  It's not 2011 anymore; this narrative should've been put to rest a long time ago.

[BballTim]

putting westbrook aside, just wanna make the point that the c's won crap without rondo, got knocked out by the knicks in six, and lucky it went to six

Just want to point out that they were on pace to miss the playoffs with Rondo.   They were under .500 before he went down.

They were .500 with him and a .500 team without him. So stop obsessing with the anti-Rondo propanganda.

False. 

We were 3 games below .500 with him.   We were in the midst of a 6 game losing streak when he went down.  We won 7 in a row after he got injured and finished the season above .500.

Factually, the Celtics are on a 12 game losing streak with Rondo at the helm.

  Factually the Thunder are on a 9 game winning streak without Westbrook. Factually the Clips are better without Chris Paul, and the improvement in their winning percentage is *larger* than the Celts was without Rondo last year. Check my math, but it's also a fact that when the Celts were contenders (08-12) we had a better record when KG was out of the lineup than we did with Rondo out of the lineup.

  What do those facts tell you about Rondo, Westbrook, CP3 and KG? That's up to you, but whatever it says about one of them it says about all of them. Take all of the comments you've made about Rondo because the Celts had a better record without him and apply them to this year's version of Chris Paul and the Clips. However ridiculous you think they'd sound about Chris Paul is exactly how ridiculous they were when you posted them about Rondo.

[BballTim]

  Rondo would help KD a little, getting him some easier looks and (more importantly) not taking more shots than Durant. He'd also probably improve the offense for the other players on the court. I also don't know how much improvement you'll see from Westbrook, who's improved a little but not a lot over the past 2-3 years. He's younger than Rondo but Rondo's still in his 20s, he's not going to fall off of a cliff anytime soon. And I doubt that it's the case that OKX wouldn't have seen any improvement in their play in last year's playoffs with better point guard play. I don't want the trade and I doubt OKC does the trade but they could easily be a better team if they did.

Yeah, that was a little hyperbolic of me-- healthy Rondo's an obvious upgrade over Reggie Jackson, for sure.

The number of shots Durant takes bit seems to be getting overblown, though-- This season, with Westbrook, KD was averaging just under 19 shots a game (over 25 games), and in the 19 games without him he's averaging just over 21.


More importantly, with Westbrook they're 24-4. Without him they're 11-6.

I think RW gets the same criticism that Rondo gets in reverse--that he shoots too often and doesn't look for his teammates enough. Just like with most of the Rondo critiques, though, it doesn't really hold up. OKC desperately needs both guys shooting over 20 times a game to really scare the hell out of teams in the postseason.

they are 11-6 but haven't lost in a lifetime it seems. They are on fire right now. Beat Miami today also without alot of fuzz.

RW does damage to the team by not only butting heads with KD but also not passing it to guys like Ibaka and Lamb enough. And these guys should get more passes to divesity the offense

The Celtics on the other hand, could really use a go to guy.

For me its a win win situation. I bet if we had RW , we would start winning more games then expected. With Rondo, OKC would just keep trucking along and KD having the green light to be the man

I agree that the Thunder need to diversify their offense, but I place that pretty squarely on Scott Brooks.

If Durant and Westbrook were really at each other as much as you seem to think, OKC would've let go of Westbrook instead of Harden.

Fact is, Westbrook is brutally underrated by many casual basketball fans. The guy is putting up numbers we haven't seen since Oscar Robertson, but because he's not passing the ball to Saint Kevin the Anointed and standing in the corner on every possession he gets demonized.

And, for what it's worth, Durant has, over their overlapping careers, used more possessions than Westbrook. Durant has, over their overlapping careers, a higher usage rate than Westbrook. He has, so far, taken four more shots without Westbrook.

Can anyone honestly suggest that taking Westbrook off the team is worth it because KD takes four more shots?

Can we please let this notion that Westbrook is holding back Durant die?

  Check out last year's team. Westbrook had a TS% of 53%. Every member of the team aside from him and Perk with 1000+ minutes (5 players in total) had a TS% of over 60%. Westbrook shot the ball more than any of them. He's the point guard, so it was his decision to shoot so much instead of distributing the ball to more efficient scorers. If you don't understand why people see a problem with this then I don't know what to tell you.

[D.o.s.]

That's a brutal oversimplification using one flimsy stat and you know it and I know it. You could just as easily argue that Westbrook's ability and willingness to shoot keeps people from double teaming their more effective scorers--we saw the opposing team smother KD in the playoffs last year doing exactly that--ignoring everyone else on the floor and making the rest of the team win the game. I'm going to bed, but feel free to look up the TS% splits of the Thunder from this year between with Westbrook and Without.

Here's a great breakdown of the Thunder's offense from this year via their SBN blog:
http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2013/12/28/5249732/the-thunders-offense-without-russell-westbrook
(warning, they call Kemba Walker a great defender in that one).

Now, if you're a traditionalist, and being the "ball handling guard" means that you're a point guard and  you must look to pass the ball first, second, fourth, fifth, and seventy-seventh. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

But that doesn't have dick to do with how good Westbrook is at hoops.

[BballTim]

That's a brutal oversimplification using one flimsy stat and you know it and I know it. You could just as easily argue that Westbrook's ability and willingness to shoot keeps people from double teaming their more effective scorers--we saw the opposing team smother KD in the playoffs last year doing exactly that--ignoring everyone else on the floor and making the rest of the team win the game. I'm going to bed, but feel free to look up the TS% splits of the Thunder from this year between with Westbrook and Without.

  The difference is fairly slight, but the Thunder's TS%, eFG% and offensive efficiency are all *up* since Westbrook left the lineup in December. I don't think the "Westbrook makes everyone else better scorers with his volume shooting" theory holds a lot of water. TP for describing my post as brutal though.

Here's a great breakdown of the Thunder's offense from this year via their SBN blog:
http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2013/12/28/5249732/the-thunders-offense-without-russell-westbrook
(warning, they call Kemba Walker a great defender in that one).

  That article is from December 28th. The Thunder had just played their first game without Westbrook and apparently played rather poorly. They seem to have adjusted quite nicely. He wrote that after 1 game where they scored under 90 points. Think he'd write the same thing today, with the Thunder on a 9 game win streak where they've scored 100+ points in every game?

Now, if you're a traditionalist, and being the "ball handling guard" means that you're a point guard and  you must look to pass the ball first, second, fourth, fifth, and seventy-seventh. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

  That's a pretty obtuse comment. I'd characterize it as a brutal misrepresentation of my point of view.

[makaveli]

Too much attention is given to the "we had the better record without him" thing. What really matters is the way we played without him, imo much better as a team. But that reall doesnt mean anything right now, since no one of those other guys is around anymore( God i wish them back every day).
What matters is can you build youre franchise around a not the top but top10 pointguard(with the acl, he has to work his way to the top again).
Somebody mentioned a max type contract, imo he is nowhere near that neigborhood.

[Phil125]

The jury is still out but Westbrook seems to be a better version of Starbury.   He might pan out better, but history is against him.  Most players like him never pan out. 

I for one don't want to take that chance.

[D.o.s.]

That's a brutal oversimplification using one flimsy stat and you know it and I know it. You could just as easily argue that Westbrook's ability and willingness to shoot keeps people from double teaming their more effective scorers--we saw the opposing team smother KD in the playoffs last year doing exactly that--ignoring everyone else on the floor and making the rest of the team win the game. I'm going to bed, but feel free to look up the TS% splits of the Thunder from this year between with Westbrook and Without.

  The difference is fairly slight, but the Thunder's TS%, eFG% and offensive efficiency are all *up* since Westbrook left the lineup in December. I don't think the "Westbrook makes everyone else better scorers with his volume shooting" theory holds a lot of water. TP for describing my post as brutal though.

Here's a great breakdown of the Thunder's offense from this year via their SBN blog:
http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2013/12/28/5249732/the-thunders-offense-without-russell-westbrook
(warning, they call Kemba Walker a great defender in that one).

  That article is from December 28th. The Thunder had just played their first game without Westbrook and apparently played rather poorly. They seem to have adjusted quite nicely. He wrote that after 1 game where they scored under 90 points. Think he'd write the same thing today, with the Thunder on a 9 game win streak where they've scored 100+ points in every game?

Now, if you're a traditionalist, and being the "ball handling guard" means that you're a point guard and  you must look to pass the ball first, second, fourth, fifth, and seventy-seventh. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

  That's a pretty obtuse comment. I'd characterize it as a brutal misrepresentation of my point of view.

I actually found a better article, but I was too tired to go back..

Here it is:
http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2014/1/24/5311044/the-three-pointer-an-insurmountable-obstacle

The jury is still out but Westbrook seems to be a better version of Starbury.   He might pan out better, but history is against him.  Most players like him never pan out. 

I for one don't want to take that chance.

Are there any players you do like? Rondo is a cancer, Westbrook is a better Starbury. Lots of claims, not a lot of evidence.

[LarBrd33]

Through 6 games, Rondo really could not be worse.  He doesn't even look like a rotation player right now.  THere are 60 PGs in the league outperforming him.

That can't last.  I'm sure eventually he'll show improvement... or he'll be out of the league in a couple years.  He's playing at a D-League level right now.  Even though he's past his prime, he can't be THAT bad yet.

[Tr1boy]

Through 6 games, Rondo really could not be worse.  He doesn't even look like a rotation player right now.  THere are 60 PGs in the league outperforming him.

That can't last.  I'm sure eventually he'll show improvement... or he'll be out of the league in a couple years.  He's playing at a D-League level right now.  Even though he's past his prime, he can't be THAT bad yet.

what is it your expecting?

Without KG/PP/RA (2 out of the three), Rondo is not a triple double threat anymore

Danny is just waiting for an overpay to deal Rondo away.

two scenerios will occur if an overpay doesn't come to him by next year

1) With some added firepower + Rondo, we play better than expected. Give Rondo an extension

or

2) We are still as bad as today or only marginally better before the trade deadline. If all can get is Greg Monroe, he will pull the trigger.

Rondo has to prove he is worth the long term extension. Stacked team or not, Rondo has to lead us to wins, or we have to move towards another direction

[LarBrd33]

Through 6 games, Rondo really could not be worse.  He doesn't even look like a rotation player right now.  THere are 60 PGs in the league outperforming him.

That can't last.  I'm sure eventually he'll show improvement... or he'll be out of the league in a couple years.  He's playing at a D-League level right now.  Even though he's past his prime, he can't be THAT bad yet.

what is it your expecting?

Without KG/PP/RA (2 out of the three), Rondo is not a triple double threat anymore

Danny is just waiting for an overpay to deal Rondo away.

two scenerios will occur if an overpay doesn't come to him by next year

1) With some added firepower + Rondo, we play better than expected. Give Rondo an extension

or

2) We are still as bad as today or only marginally better before the trade deadline. If all can get is Greg Monroe, he will pull the trigger.

Rondo has to prove he is worth the long term extension. Stacked team or not, Rondo has to lead us to wins, or we have to move towards another direction

I expected 12 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds 1.5 steal 3 turnovers on 44%/30%/60% shooting in about 32 minutes per game.   Hopefully he still has that in him.   Solid fringe all-star player.  Top 20 PG.   Right now he's been horrible.  It's just odd, because he said he wasn't coming back until he was 100% healthy.   I have to imagine his early play has hurt his trade value, but there are still some games to play before the deadline.  Maybe he will show some flashes that can lure a team in.

[BballTim]

Through 6 games, Rondo really could not be worse.  He doesn't even look like a rotation player right now.  THere are 60 PGs in the league outperforming him.

That can't last.  I'm sure eventually he'll show improvement... or he'll be out of the league in a couple years.  He's playing at a D-League level right now.  Even though he's past his prime, he can't be THAT bad yet.

what is it your expecting?

Without KG/PP/RA (2 out of the three), Rondo is not a triple double threat anymore

  The guy is far from healthy, rusty as hell and he's already had a 13/8/8 game. "Rondo is not a triple double threat anymore" is nonsensical.

[D.o.s.]

Through 6 games, Rondo really could not be worse.  He doesn't even look like a rotation player right now.  THere are 60 PGs in the league outperforming him.

That can't last.  I'm sure eventually he'll show improvement... or he'll be out of the league in a couple years.  He's playing at a D-League level right now.  Even though he's past his prime, he can't be THAT bad yet.

what is it your expecting?

Without KG/PP/RA (2 out of the three), Rondo is not a triple double threat anymore

Danny is just waiting for an overpay to deal Rondo away.

two scenerios will occur if an overpay doesn't come to him by next year

1) With some added firepower + Rondo, we play better than expected. Give Rondo an extension

or

2) We are still as bad as today or only marginally better before the trade deadline. If all can get is Greg Monroe, he will pull the trigger.

Rondo has to prove he is worth the long term extension. Stacked team or not, Rondo has to lead us to wins, or we have to move towards another direction

I expected 12 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds 1.5 steal 3 turnovers on 44%/30%/60% shooting in about 32 minutes per game.   Hopefully he still has that in him.   Solid fringe all-star player.  Top 20 PG.   Right now he's been horrible.  It's just odd, because he said he wasn't coming back until he was 100% healthy.   I have to imagine his early play has hurt his trade value, but there are still some games to play before the deadline.  Maybe he will show some flashes that can lure a team in.

Being healthy is not the same as being rust free.