trade idea revisited: rondo for westrbook

[D.o.s.]

No way OKC goes for it.

no way danny does it.  i think okc would jump on having someone pass first to kd, plus, they get a 1st?  wow.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Oklahoma City has been worse as a team without Russell Westbrook. Rondo doesn't alleviate any of their problems, and doesn't bring any of the advantages that Westbrook does.

There's also the fact that Rondo is three years older than Westbrook, so even (and especially) if you believe that Rondo hasn't peaked yet, you've got to acknowledge that Westbrook will be getting better and playing at a high level for much longer than RR, barring additional injury to either player.

There's also the fact that Russell Westbrook is probably better at basketball than RR, but I don't expect that to go over well here.


Didn't we all see just how well KD worked without Westbrook in last year's playoffs? No way they do any better than that with Rondo at point instead of Reggie Jackson.

[Eddie20]

Westbrook is a cancer.  OKC is playing better without him.  He is high up there on the list of players I never want to see in a Celtics uniform.

Guess Rondo is a cancer, too, seeing as how last year's Celtics played better without him.  I'll take it one step even further: the only game the Celtics have won since his return happens to be the one game he sat out.

See how stupid that argument is?

  You'd have to wonder about what conclusions all of the people who claimed that our record without Rondo last year "exposed" him as a player would draw when they heard that the Clips have been playing better with Chris Paul out of the lineup. Imagine the pileup when they all did a 180 on the subject and tripped over each other in the rush to defend CP3 from the same inferences they made about Rondo.

Sadly, Rondo is no Paul. I wish he was.

Tim will now respond with a reference about the 2012 playoffs in 3, 2, 1....

  No, I'll just while away the afternoon listening to your stories about all of Paul's playoff heroics where he's led team after team to the promised land. Since you brought it up, feel free to start with the 2012 playoffs.

I do recall Paul pretty much single-handedly keeping the Hornets alive against the Lakers in the 2011 playoffs. You know the same team that had Kobe play off of Rondo and dared him to shoot just 1 year earlier.

If you're going to compare Paul to Rondo then it's an uphill battle for you. if we had Paul instead of Rondo we would have won at least 2 titles.

Didn't Ainge try to trade Rondo for Paul? 

  So you conveniently skip the 2012 playoffs so we can revel in the way Paul's team won a couple of games against a team that got swept in the next round? I can see why you'd be so excited by that.

  And it's fairly unlikely we'd have 2 titles with Paul instead of Rondo, we probably wouldn't have gotten past the Cavs in 2010 with Paul instead of Rondo. Or were you referring to another season?

  Edit: apparently you were since you said we'd have won at least 1 more title. Which one would we have definitely won, and which ones would we have probably won?

We can talk about 2012 if you'd like. The Clippers beat the Grizzlies and then got swept by the Spurs. I love the C's, but that year we wouldn't have beat either of those teams.

We don't get passed the Cavs in 2010 with Paul instead of Rondo? Tim, do you drink and type? James completely checked out in that series. I would venture to say that had more to do with West than Rondo.

  The Celts played the Grizzlies (who won 2 more games than us that year) and beat them by 20. I'll take your assurances that we'd have lost to them with a grain of salt. And James checked out when it became obvious the Celts were going to win the series, not for the whole series. I'd ask if you watched the series but I don't think that would help in your case.

I give you credit. You're the ultimate hype man regardless of how wacky it makes you sound. The sad thing is that eventually you're going to have to start talking about recent history. All of your Rondo defense is getting old. You need new material.

[makaveli]

I haven't been a fan of Rondo, ever since the C's became "his team". In no sort of fashion is he the guy you would like to build from scratch.
If that's the plan, then I would rather trade him for 1st-3rd round pick, depending on his value.
Facts about Rondo IMO:
1. he will never be a good shooter
2. pounds the ball waayyy too much, it's like, the only way for C's to score is if he creates a open jumpshot. you can say he does that a lot, more or less effective taken on a game to game basis, but other guys tend to go idle, and basicly when you get the ball all you can do is shoot it, and not every player is named Ray Allen
3. his "defense" is atrocious to say at least. please don't argue about this one

to reflect on the topic subject, I would trade Rondo for Russell right now, and get away with murder pretty much.

[BballTim]

Westbrook is a cancer.  OKC is playing better without him.  He is high up there on the list of players I never want to see in a Celtics uniform.

Guess Rondo is a cancer, too, seeing as how last year's Celtics played better without him.  I'll take it one step even further: the only game the Celtics have won since his return happens to be the one game he sat out.

See how stupid that argument is?

  You'd have to wonder about what conclusions all of the people who claimed that our record without Rondo last year "exposed" him as a player would draw when they heard that the Clips have been playing better with Chris Paul out of the lineup. Imagine the pileup when they all did a 180 on the subject and tripped over each other in the rush to defend CP3 from the same inferences they made about Rondo.

Sadly, Rondo is no Paul. I wish he was.

Tim will now respond with a reference about the 2012 playoffs in 3, 2, 1....

  No, I'll just while away the afternoon listening to your stories about all of Paul's playoff heroics where he's led team after team to the promised land. Since you brought it up, feel free to start with the 2012 playoffs.

I do recall Paul pretty much single-handedly keeping the Hornets alive against the Lakers in the 2011 playoffs. You know the same team that had Kobe play off of Rondo and dared him to shoot just 1 year earlier.

If you're going to compare Paul to Rondo then it's an uphill battle for you. if we had Paul instead of Rondo we would have won at least 2 titles.

Didn't Ainge try to trade Rondo for Paul? 

  So you conveniently skip the 2012 playoffs so we can revel in the way Paul's team won a couple of games against a team that got swept in the next round? I can see why you'd be so excited by that.

  And it's fairly unlikely we'd have 2 titles with Paul instead of Rondo, we probably wouldn't have gotten past the Cavs in 2010 with Paul instead of Rondo. Or were you referring to another season?

  Edit: apparently you were since you said we'd have won at least 1 more title. Which one would we have definitely won, and which ones would we have probably won?

We can talk about 2012 if you'd like. The Clippers beat the Grizzlies and then got swept by the Spurs. I love the C's, but that year we wouldn't have beat either of those teams.

We don't get passed the Cavs in 2010 with Paul instead of Rondo? Tim, do you drink and type? James completely checked out in that series. I would venture to say that had more to do with West than Rondo.

  The Celts played the Grizzlies (who won 2 more games than us that year) and beat them by 20. I'll take your assurances that we'd have lost to them with a grain of salt. And James checked out when it became obvious the Celts were going to win the series, not for the whole series. I'd ask if you watched the series but I don't think that would help in your case.

I give you credit. You're the ultimate hype man regardless of how wacky it makes you sound. The sad thing is that eventually you're going to have to start talking about recent history. All of your Rondo defense is getting old. You need new material.

  Hopefully I'll get some when he's healthy.

[TheFlex]

If this deal was proposed two years ago I could see it happening. Rondo was a top ten player and probably equally as effective as Westbrook. Would've fit perfectly next to today's uber aggressive Durant. Alas, Westbrook is locked up while Rondo is not, and Danny cannot point to Westbrook's injury as a cause for concern because Rondo's long-term health is equally as unstable. For the C's, Westbrook's style of play is more beneficial on a team with no real discernible alpha dog (on and off the court) than Rondo's, who fits better next to a scorer than Westbrook. Won't happen now.

[Phil125]

Westbrook is a cancer.  OKC is playing better without him.  He is high up there on the list of players I never want to see in a Celtics uniform.

Guess Rondo is a cancer, too, seeing as how last year's Celtics played better without him.  I'll take it one step even further: the only game the Celtics have won since his return happens to be the one game he sat out.

See how stupid that argument is?

Rondo is a cancer.  Then again I hate point guards.  The best teams barely have one.

[Endless Paradise]

Westbrook is a cancer.  OKC is playing better without him.  He is high up there on the list of players I never want to see in a Celtics uniform.

Guess Rondo is a cancer, too, seeing as how last year's Celtics played better without him.  I'll take it one step even further: the only game the Celtics have won since his return happens to be the one game he sat out.

See how stupid that argument is?

Last year: .500 team with Rondo playing. After he went down, .500 team + a 1st round playoff round exit. So by your definition, how was the team "better"?

This year: we were 1-9 in our last 10 games prior to Rondo's return. We weren't setting the league on fire before he got back, we won't with him back. Because this isn't a good team.

There were TONS of arguments about how the team was playing better without Rondo because they rode a hot streak for a while.  Look at the archives.

[BballTim]

No way OKC goes for it.

no way danny does it.  i think okc would jump on having someone pass first to kd, plus, they get a 1st?  wow.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Oklahoma City has been worse as a team without Russell Westbrook. Rondo doesn't alleviate any of their problems, and doesn't bring any of the advantages that Westbrook does.

There's also the fact that Rondo is three years older than Westbrook, so even (and especially) if you believe that Rondo hasn't peaked yet, you've got to acknowledge that Westbrook will be getting better and playing at a high level for much longer than RR, barring additional injury to either player.

There's also the fact that Russell Westbrook is probably better at basketball than RR, but I don't expect that to go over well here.


Didn't we all see just how well KD worked without Westbrook in last year's playoffs? No way they do any better than that with Rondo at point instead of Reggie Jackson.

  Rondo would help KD a little, getting him some easier looks and (more importantly) not taking more shots than Durant. He'd also probably improve the offense for the other players on the court. I also don't know how much improvement you'll see from Westbrook, who's improved a little but not a lot over the past 2-3 years. He's younger than Rondo but Rondo's still in his 20s, he's not going to fall off of a cliff anytime soon. And I doubt that it's the case that OKX wouldn't have seen any improvement in their play in last year's playoffs with better point guard play. I don't want the trade and I doubt OKC does the trade but they could easily be a better team if they did.

[LarBrd33]

I'm holding off on creating Rondo trade ideas until he starts to show a pulse.  With the way he has played so far, you'd be lucky to get a pack of cigarettes for him. 

6.7 points, 5.7 assists,  3.8 rebounds, 1 steal, 3.3 turnovers, 28%/23%/50% shooting...

His EFF of 6 isn't even in the to 60 for PGs.  Right now, Austin Rivers is outperforming him.  We haven't won a single game with Rondo on the court.   

It's still super early... he has a bit of a grace period.  But until he starts playing above d-league level we can forget about trading him.  Right now, You have a better shot of trading Chris Johnson for Westbrook.

  There were plenty of rumors of teams trying to trade for Rondo when he was out with an injury. It's pretty naive to think that the market for him is worse now that he's playing again, or that his play in his first week or two back from a knee injury would deter other teams from wanting him. Luckily Ainge seems to have no interest in trading him unless he gets a star player in return.

Well first of all, thanks Tim.  I can always count on you to bump one of my posts.

There was an argument some of us had a few months back.  One side felt that you needed to "wait until Rondo was 100%" before trading him so you could get the best return.    My side felt that you should trade him before he returned, because it was possible he would never return 100%.   I understood the concept behind waiting, but it seemed to me that there was a good shot Rondo would come back, look like crap or get exposed in a post KG/Pierce/Doc world.  He's a flawed player.  Without a proper system and team surrounding him, he might not flourish.  There's a chance he could come back from his surgery and never be the same.  To me, it seemed we were taking a risk waiting for him to return.  "Playoff superstar Rondo" isn't really relevant when he's leading a bottomfeeder team to the lotto. 

Now here we are... 6 games into his return.  He's be absolutely horrible.  I don't doubt that teams had interest in Rondo before he came back... perhaps they saw Rondo as an all-star they could snatch up. 

Now, I'm sure they are waiting to see if he produces.  What if he doesn't produce?  So far he hasn't produced.  If I was offering big assets for him prior to his return, I'd be thinking twice about it now.  He doesn't look like someone who can help a team win.  Maybe that will change, but right now he doesn't look like someone worth trading for. 

I think it's fair to say his stock was a bit low when he was injured.  As of right now, it's even lower.  Hopefully he has a nice streak of games leading into the deadline.  He has 10 more to go.

[LarBrd33]

putting westbrook aside, just wanna make the point that the c's won crap without rondo, got knocked out by the knicks in six, and lucky it went to six

Just want to point out that they were on pace to miss the playoffs with Rondo.   They were under .500 before he went down.

[Tr1boy]

I haven't been a fan of Rondo, ever since the C's became "his team". In no sort of fashion is he the guy you would like to build from scratch.
If that's the plan, then I would rather trade him for 1st-3rd round pick, depending on his value.
Facts about Rondo IMO:
1. he will never be a good shooter
2. pounds the ball waayyy too much, it's like, the only way for C's to score is if he creates a open jumpshot. you can say he does that a lot, more or less effective taken on a game to game basis, but other guys tend to go idle, and basicly when you get the ball all you can do is shoot it, and not every player is named Ray Allen
3. his "defense" is atrocious to say at least. please don't argue about this one

to reflect on the topic subject, I would trade Rondo for Russell right now, and get away with murder pretty much.

I thought the same as you before. But you have too much hate for a guy that has accomplished more than most pg's in the nba

Rondo is a precise fit for a team that has the talent, vet pieces for a possible run but not the person to organize the offense. For example teams like the knicks and kings would really benefit with Rondo on their team

You just can't stick a felton and pray he can do the job efficiently. Rondo can

But Rondo we haven't seen yet be able to lead a team on his own or as one of the main guys. Probably will never be able to imo.  Most pure pg's likely can't. If they can score a little , it helps but where is such team going to go without talent.

Danny feels the org has invested alot in Rondo already. So without getting back enough he won't be going anywhere.

The issue is, can the team take a risk on Rondo (giving him a fat deal), while the rebuild will take place. I mean it could take a while to get a proper executing team. We could have parker, wiggins, embiid on the same team but likely there will be lots of turnovers, lack of executions etc.

I think unless Danny can pull another 2007-2008 and trade for some big pieces or hits some home run draft choices for 2014 , Rondo is likely going to be traded by latest next year deadline.  The team has to improve and win instead of dwelling on the what if.

[RJ87]

putting westbrook aside, just wanna make the point that the c's won crap without rondo, got knocked out by the knicks in six, and lucky it went to six

Just want to point out that they were on pace to miss the playoffs with Rondo.   They were under .500 before he went down.

They were .500 with him and a .500 team without him. So stop obsessing with the anti-Rondo propanganda.

[D.o.s.]

  Rondo would help KD a little, getting him some easier looks and (more importantly) not taking more shots than Durant. He'd also probably improve the offense for the other players on the court. I also don't know how much improvement you'll see from Westbrook, who's improved a little but not a lot over the past 2-3 years. He's younger than Rondo but Rondo's still in his 20s, he's not going to fall off of a cliff anytime soon. And I doubt that it's the case that OKX wouldn't have seen any improvement in their play in last year's playoffs with better point guard play. I don't want the trade and I doubt OKC does the trade but they could easily be a better team if they did.

Yeah, that was a little hyperbolic of me-- healthy Rondo's an obvious upgrade over Reggie Jackson, for sure.

The number of shots Durant takes bit seems to be getting overblown, though-- This season, with Westbrook, KD was averaging just under 19 shots a game (over 25 games), and in the 19 games without him he's averaging just over 21.


More importantly, with Westbrook they're 24-4. Without him they're 11-6.

I think RW gets the same criticism that Rondo gets in reverse--that he shoots too often and doesn't look for his teammates enough. Just like with most of the Rondo critiques, though, it doesn't really hold up. OKC desperately needs both guys shooting over 20 times a game to really scare the hell out of teams in the postseason.

[Tr1boy]

  Rondo would help KD a little, getting him some easier looks and (more importantly) not taking more shots than Durant. He'd also probably improve the offense for the other players on the court. I also don't know how much improvement you'll see from Westbrook, who's improved a little but not a lot over the past 2-3 years. He's younger than Rondo but Rondo's still in his 20s, he's not going to fall off of a cliff anytime soon. And I doubt that it's the case that OKX wouldn't have seen any improvement in their play in last year's playoffs with better point guard play. I don't want the trade and I doubt OKC does the trade but they could easily be a better team if they did.

Yeah, that was a little hyperbolic of me-- healthy Rondo's an obvious upgrade over Reggie Jackson, for sure.

The number of shots Durant takes bit seems to be getting overblown, though-- This season, with Westbrook, KD was averaging just under 19 shots a game (over 25 games), and in the 19 games without him he's averaging just over 21.


More importantly, with Westbrook they're 24-4. Without him they're 11-6.

I think RW gets the same criticism that Rondo gets in reverse--that he shoots too often and doesn't look for his teammates enough. Just like with most of the Rondo critiques, though, it doesn't really hold up. OKC desperately needs both guys shooting over 20 times a game to really scare the hell out of teams in the postseason.

they are 11-6 but haven't lost in a lifetime it seems. They are on fire right now. Beat Miami today also without alot of fuzz.

RW does damage to the team by not only butting heads with KD but also not passing it to guys like Ibaka and Lamb enough. And these guys should get more passes to divesity the offense

The Celtics on the other hand, could really use a go to guy.

For me its a win win situation. I bet if we had RW , we would start winning more games then expected. With Rondo, OKC would just keep trucking along and KD having the green light to be the man

[LarBrd33]

putting westbrook aside, just wanna make the point that the c's won crap without rondo, got knocked out by the knicks in six, and lucky it went to six

Just want to point out that they were on pace to miss the playoffs with Rondo.   They were under .500 before he went down.

They were .500 with him and a .500 team without him. So stop obsessing with the anti-Rondo propanganda.

False. 

We were 3 games below .500 with him.   We were in the midst of a 6 game losing streak when he went down.  We won 7 in a row after he got injured and finished the season above .500.

Factually, the Celtics are on a 12 game losing streak with Rondo at the helm.