If the Season Ended Today

[wiley]

Couple things to point out regarding the tanking
debate that has arisen again here in this thread...

A number of times this year I've heard opposing team's broadcasters, the
latest example being the Blazers announcers, comment on how
hard the Celtics play.  This gives me a lot of pride as a Celtic fan.
That is the reputation of this Celtics' team and countless past
Celtics' teams

As exciting as it would be to land a top 5 pick this year, it is more
important to continue the tradition of Celtic pride by putting
a product on the floor that gives great effort.

If the Celtics make the 8th seed and show grit and make Indiana
or Miami work their tails off to beat us, maybe even winning two games
in the process, that is a great achievement that will increase the value
of every player on this Celtics' team and be a source of pride
in itself.

Having said all that, if Danny WANTS to lose more games this year
then there's nothing to stop him.  And that's a completely valid
option for a GM to take. As far as a GM setting his team up for the future
under the current NBA draft system, this is absolutely a "good" year to
be bad.  That doesn't guarantee a championship though, but it would
certainly be a good and valid way to acquire another piece of the puzzle.  No guarantees of course, but 3 of the top 6 picks (Parker, Smart, Randle) may help teams improve quickly, while the other 3 (Wiggins, Exum, Embiid) will likely take a bit longer to help their teams out of the doldrums.  So from Danny's perspective for example, why push Rondo hard AT ALL this season?  IMO that would be a classic way to threaten the Celitcs' future.  I hope they limit his minutes no matter how well he plays. Trading Bass or Green?  Up to Danny and his vision for improvement--how much via draft and how much via trades and free agency?  How fast does Danny see us getting back on top?  None of us knows the answer to that, but it's a crucial question regarding keeping
or not keeping a player like Bass, who has great worth to any playoff bound team, even off the bench, and especially for his defense.

What matters to me is that the players on the floor play hard.  If we they play
hard and keep the reputation around the leauge that I mentioned above,
then I'll be happy with any outcome.  A top 5 or 6 pick would just be gravy.

And the guys at pick 15 aren't too shabby either.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Here's why I find the "misconceptions about tankers" thread absurd when PhoSita posed "tankers" as victims. The vocal "tankers" hold very strong positions and are the ones dogmatically misrepresenting the positions of the "non-tankers".

Look, I know it can be a challenge.  I do.

But I think you'll find, if you pay very, very close attention, that LarBrd33 and I are not the same person.

Never said that. Never implied that.

Hell, I actually quite appreciate the care you put into your posts.

But the most dismissive, discussion-halting comments, from what I've seen, have come from the "tankers". I have seen "you don't want to tank...you must think this team is winning a championship: you're delusional" but I have yet to see an analog from "non-tankers". Hence, I find that thread absurd.

[cman88]

I dont like losing, and watching this team this year isnt exactly a joy. BUT looking at the big picture its better to lose now and get a top 5 pick.


most(and I say most because there are always exceptions) championship teams are built from acquiring at least one lottery pick. maybe that pick is trade bait to acquire a disgruntled star(turning our #5 pick into ray allen) or you end up drafting a superstar.

[indeedproceed]

Here's why I find the "misconceptions about tankers" thread absurd when PhoSita posed "tankers" as victims. The vocal "tankers" hold very strong positions and are the ones dogmatically misrepresenting the positions of the "non-tankers".

Look, I know it can be a challenge.  I do.

But I think you'll find, if you pay very, very close attention, that LarBrd33 and I are not the same person.

Never said that. Never implied that.

Hell, I actually quite appreciate the care you put into your posts.

But the most dismissive, discussion-halting comments, from what I've seen, have come from the "tankers". I have seen "you don't want to tank...you must think this team is winning a championship: you're delusional" but I have yet to see an analog from "non-tankers". Hence, I find that thread absurd.

I think you've been missing out on a considerable amount of posts. It's been pretty commonplace to paint people who are okay with the teams current trajectory and equate them with extremism. Heck, there is an awful lot of generalizing from both sides, and it's unfair in either scenario.

Saying you're against the team purposefully losing games (a statement that's lacking in context and nuance in and of its self) is not the same as saying 'I would be okay with getting an 8th seed for the next 10 years and going nowhere', just like saying 'I think gaining a top 5 pick this season' is not the same as saying 'I would accept any move that helped us lose more games, even if we got nothing back'.

Also, you've got the misguided, 'Real fans would blah blah farty fart my opinion' posts that are more offensive than either of my points above. It should all stop.

[PhoSita]

Here's why I find the "misconceptions about tankers" thread absurd when PhoSita posed "tankers" as victims. The vocal "tankers" hold very strong positions and are the ones dogmatically misrepresenting the positions of the "non-tankers".

Look, I know it can be a challenge.  I do.

But I think you'll find, if you pay very, very close attention, that LarBrd33 and I are not the same person.

Never said that. Never implied that.

Hell, I actually quite appreciate the care you put into your posts.

But the most dismissive, discussion-halting comments, from what I've seen, have come from the "tankers". I have seen "you don't want to tank...you must think this team is winning a championship: you're delusional" but I have yet to see an analog from "non-tankers". Hence, I find that thread absurd.

I think you've been missing out on a considerable amount of posts. It's been pretty commonplace to paint people who are okay with the teams current trajectory and equate them with extremism. Heck, there is an awful lot of generalizing from both sides, and it's unfair in either scenario.

Saying you're against the team purposefully losing games (a statement that's lacking in context and nuance in and of its self) is not the same as saying 'I would be okay with getting an 8th seed for the next 10 years and going nowhere', just like saying 'I think gaining a top 5 pick this season' is not the same as saying 'I would accept any move that helped us lose more games, even if we got nothing back'.

Also, you've got the misguided, 'Real fans would blah blah farty fart my opinion' posts that are more offensive than either of my points above. It should all stop.

I agree with all of the above; there are people on both "sides" of the debate who generalize and unfairly paint people into corners. 

That, really, was the point of the post that I made.  I think that labeling people and taking sides undermines productive discussion, because people become more invested in their "side" winning than in getting closer to the truth, and so support people who they perceive to be on their side and try to take down those they perceive not to be, regardless of the arguments being made.

For the past year or so, I think it's been all too common around these parts to forget that we're all, ultimately, on the same side.  We're all Celtics fans, whatever that means to each one of us.

[Celtics4ever]

If we get a top five pick, I think everyone will be happy.

I'd rather have this than the playoffs.   How we get there isn't important.

I think this team is designed to play hard but not win.   I don't think we have the talent to win all the time.  We are scrappy we play hard and we lose close games a lot.  Is this tanking?   Who knows but DA assembled a roster with only 4's down low and a bunch of generalists at backcourt positions.  A lot of these guys can do some things but not do them well.

[DesertDweller]

If we get a top five pick, I think everyone will be happy.

I'd rather have this than the playoffs.   How we get there isn't important.

I think this team is designed to play hard but not win.   I don't think we have the talent to win all the time.  We are scrappy we play hard and we lose close games a lot.  Is this tanking?   Who knows but DA assembled a roster with only 4's down low and a bunch of generalists at backcourt positions.  A lot of these guys can do some things but not do them well.

If, what you say is true, don't you think It's a pretty unfair position for Danny Ainge to put Brad Stevens in???  I mean this guy is all about winning.

[Moranis]

If we get a top five pick, I think everyone will be happy.

I'd rather have this than the playoffs.   How we get there isn't important.

I think this team is designed to play hard but not win.   I don't think we have the talent to win all the time.  We are scrappy we play hard and we lose close games a lot.  Is this tanking?   Who knows but DA assembled a roster with only 4's down low and a bunch of generalists at backcourt positions.  A lot of these guys can do some things but not do them well.

If, what you say is true, don't you think It's a pretty unfair position for Danny Ainge to put Brad Stevens in???  I mean this guy is all about winning.

Only if Stevens didn't know what was going on, which would make him pretty darn stupid (something Stevens is not).  Stevens knew the drill, I mean after all that is why Doc Rivers left.  Everyone in the world knew the drill and knew what was going on with this team.  This team is building towards the future, which means acquiring higher draft picks.

[BleedGreen1989]

I agree with IP and Phosita.

We all want the same thing, we just have different ways of getting there.

Neither side is "right", neither side is "wrong" and its unfair to paint somebody as such.

[DesertDweller]

Here's where the problem is when the word "tanking" is used. most fans, and I will include myself, consider the word "tanking" a vile word meaning to deliberately lose a game with all being knowledgeable about what is happening including the coaches and players. now a general manager can try and hide tanking but believe it or not the players and the fans can smell a rat. they know when the decks been stacked against them and when certain players are on the court that makes it more difficult for them to win with. and I don't care what purpose it might serve down the road with obtaining a possible top draft pick, tanking, besides destroying morale, sends the wrong message to players that have busted their butts playing with integrity to now know it's okay to not give 100% all the time and this my friends opens a whole new can of worms and it also makes me and Tommy very, very angry!!!

[mmmmm]

Is this the high water mark?

We currently sit 13-25 going into tonight's game against the Rockets.  We could be 13-26 after that, sitting in the 5th worst record and thus the 5th best lottery odds.

That said, we will still have 43 more games remaining.

And Rondo should be back within the next week or two.

On paper, the worst stretches of the season are over.  November and the first half of January always loomed as by far the roughest parts of the season.

Of the 43 remaining games, I count around 26 that look 'winnable', given the teams as they are right now.

We have slightly more home games than road games (21-22) in the remaining schedule and a lot of games against teams with similarly miserable (or worse) records.   The remaining extended road trip is a late February 4 game swing against the Suns, Lakers, Kings & Jazz.

Now, this is not to say we will win all 26 of those 'winnable' games.  But we should win a fairly large chunk of them.  And we might win a surprise win or two over the 'scheduled losses' remaining.

Beating a .500 pace through the remaining part of the schedule is 22 games.  It may seem shocking, but that's not really all that unreasonable, when you look at the schedule closely.

Thus, over the remainder of the season, don't be surprised if our lottery position "gets worse".

Now, obviously, everything could change dramatically by the time we get through the trading deadline.     If Danny trades away talent to make us worse, then that could maintain or even make our 'lottery standing' better.   If he trades to make us stronger (say, revives the "Bass+stuff for Asik" trade), then maybe we can do even better than .500.

And obviously, injury, as always, can totally wipe out a season.

If things remain the same (no major trade or injury), I still see this team winning around 36 games, which was my original off-season projection.

That will likely leave us right on the razor's edge of either in or out of the playoffs.

[Celtics18]

Is this the high water mark?

We currently sit 13-25 going into tonight's game against the Rockets.  We could be 13-26 after that, sitting in the 5th worst record and thus the 5th best lottery odds.

That said, we will still have 43 more games remaining.

And Rondo should be back within the next week or two.

On paper, the worst stretches of the season are over.  November and the first half of January always loomed as by far the roughest parts of the season.

Of the 43 remaining games, I count around 26 that look 'winnable', given the teams as they are right now.

We have slightly more home games than road games (21-22) in the remaining schedule and a lot of games against teams with similarly miserable (or worse) records.   The remaining extended road trip is a late February 4 game swing against the Suns, Lakers, Kings & Jazz.

Now, this is not to say we will win all 26 of those 'winnable' games.  But we should win a fairly large chunk of them.  And we might win a surprise win or two over the 'scheduled losses' remaining.

Beating a .500 pace through the remaining part of the schedule is 22 games.  It may seem shocking, but that's not really all that unreasonable, when you look at the schedule closely.

Thus, over the remainder of the season, don't be surprised if our lottery position "gets worse".

Now, obviously, everything could change dramatically by the time we get through the trading deadline.     If Danny trades away talent to make us worse, then that could maintain or even make our 'lottery standing' better.   If he trades to make us stronger (say, revives the "Bass+stuff for Asik" trade), then maybe we can do even better than .500.

And obviously, injury, as always, can totally wipe out a season.

If things remain the same (no major trade or injury), I still see this team winning around 36 games, which was my original off-season projection.

That will likely leave us right on the razor's edge of either in or out of the playoffs.

I'd love to see this team win 35 games.  Whether that's good enough for the playoff or the lottery doesn't really matter to me at this point. 

I'm all about rooting for the 2013-2014 Celtics right now. 

The future will come, one way or another. 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

If we get a top five pick, I think everyone will be happy.

I'd rather have this than the playoffs.   How we get there isn't important.

I think this team is designed to play hard but not win.   I don't think we have the talent to win all the time.  We are scrappy we play hard and we lose close games a lot.  Is this tanking?   Who knows but DA assembled a roster with only 4's down low and a bunch of generalists at backcourt positions.  A lot of these guys can do some things but not do them well.

If, what you say is true, don't you think It's a pretty unfair position for Danny Ainge to put Brad Stevens in???  I mean this guy is all about winning.

Only if Stevens didn't know what was going on, which would make him pretty darn stupid (something Stevens is not).  Stevens knew the drill, I mean after all that is why Doc Rivers left.  Everyone in the world knew the drill and knew what was going on with this team.  This team is building towards the future, which means acquiring higher draft picks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[BleedGreen1989]

After last nights loss I believe we are tied with Utah for the 4th worst record and close to PHI for the 3rd

Now the remaining January schedule again gets tough:

@MIA
@WAS (back to back)
OKC
BRK
@NY
PHI (back to back)

[bleedGREENdon]

I see us winning tops 15-17 games the rest of the season leaving us at 30 wins as the best record we can have. That's also with the roster we have now.

We trade bass, I say we win 14 games.
We make any significant trade involving Avery or Rondo or Green.
I see us winning maybe 8 more games lol.

We are not making the playoffs. We will be in TE lottery barring any major trade that benefits this current team.
I see us losing the next 5 games. Easily.

:DDDD