Who do we keep? Rondo or Crawford?

[mmmmm]

Understand the preference for 3rd string veterans on a championship level team.  I also think you can have young guys or a mix in those positions. We won in 2008 with Big Baby and Powe developing and contributing.

No big argument re Brooks and Pressey. I too am more impressed with Pressey thus far than Brooks.

However, both Crawford and Bradley were not long ago guys who were projected by many with just about zero chance of anything resembling a successful NBA career.

Playing optimist, I'm hoping Stevens can pull the best out of Brooks within a year or so - find something to salvage. I'm sure if he can't the organization will let him go very quickly...

I've been predicting that Bradley could be the Celtics starting SG of the future since his rookie season.  I admit Crawford has talent, but I am highly skeptical of his ability to stay focused and disciplined for more than half a season.  I just have little regard for players with the skill set of Brooks and I don't see anything worth salvaging.

That's a bold statement, considering AB was hot garbage for the C's his rookie year.

Actually LC and I were two of the few who were high on Bradley from the start and predicted success long term from him.

Yep.  I'll vouch for both of you on this.

[D.o.s.]

Actually LC and I were two of the few who were high on Bradley from the start and predicted success long term from him.

I was very adamant at the time that Bradley was not a PG and that his future was as a SG.  I even dug up that he had never played PG at any level, even high school.  I believed he had a reasonable shot at being at least a 37-38% three-point shooter who could score 12-15 ppg and that his size would not prevent him from being a solid defender as a 2-guard.

Not saying I don't believe either of you, just that AB's rookie year was, in the parlance of Chuck, tuuuurrible.

[Celtics4ever]

We keep Rondo and Crawford.   AB is going to be the odd man out.

[chambers]

Haha I thought this thread would create some discussion.
Actually Crawford's per 36 stats were almost the same in Washington- he was just not passing as well and taking worse shots.

I'd love to have both guys but after Crawford's season I don't know if he's gonna be affordable. Surely he's better than Kemba Walker?

The dilemma is Rondo coming back from injury and the ability to walk away in 15 months time.

I got Rondos stats from basketball-reference.com and yes Rondo's stats are correct.
Perhaps people don't ever actually look at Rondos stats other than rebounds and assists?

Crawfords presence has meant that even if Rondo returns for half a season, his impact wont be as huge as some think unless his shooting percentages improve dramatically.

[BballTim]

Haha I thought this thread would create some discussion.
Actually Crawford's per 36 stats were almost the same in Washington- he was just not passing as well and taking worse shots.

I'd love to have both guys but after Crawford's season I don't know if he's gonna be affordable. Surely he's better than Kemba Walker?

The dilemma is Rondo coming back from injury and the ability to walk away in 15 months time.

I got Rondos stats from basketball-reference.com and yes Rondo's stats are correct.
Perhaps people don't ever actually look at Rondos stats other than rebounds and assists?

Crawfords presence has meant that even if Rondo returns for half a season, his impact wont be as huge as some think unless his shooting percentages improve dramatically.

  People do actually look at Rondo's numbers, the numbers you used weren't Rondo's per36 numbers, I'm not sure what they were. Crawford started 14 games last season and averaged about 16/5/6 although he was turning the ball over more and scoring less efficiently. I'd have to wonder whether he's taking better shots or just hitting more of them, I think he takes some fairly ill-advised shots.

  As for Rondo, it's hard to say what his impact will be this year because nobody knows how long it will take him to get back to full speed. The impact he makes isn't really dependent on  his shooting percentages, just like it hasn't been for the last 7 years. One way he makes an impact, btw, is how well he runs an offense. We've seen a fair amount of discombobulated possessions on offense, more than we generally see with Rondo running the offense. That's something that matters to the team, but you'll never be able to see that by comparing the per36 numbers for two players.

[chambers]

Haha I thought this thread would create some discussion.
Actually Crawford's per 36 stats were almost the same in Washington- he was just not passing as well and taking worse shots.

I'd love to have both guys but after Crawford's season I don't know if he's gonna be affordable. Surely he's better than Kemba Walker?

The dilemma is Rondo coming back from injury and the ability to walk away in 15 months time.

I got Rondos stats from basketball-reference.com and yes Rondo's stats are correct.
Perhaps people don't ever actually look at Rondos stats other than rebounds and assists?

Crawfords presence has meant that even if Rondo returns for half a season, his impact wont be as huge as some think unless his shooting percentages improve dramatically.

  People do actually look at Rondo's numbers, the numbers you used weren't Rondo's per36 numbers, I'm not sure what they were. Crawford started 14 games last season and averaged about 16/5/6 although he was turning the ball over more and scoring less efficiently. I'd have to wonder whether he's taking better shots or just hitting more of them, I think he takes some fairly ill-advised shots.

  As for Rondo, it's hard to say what his impact will be this year because nobody knows how long it will take him to get back to full speed. The impact he makes isn't really dependent on  his shooting percentages, just like it hasn't been for the last 7 years. One way he makes an impact, btw, is how well he runs an offense. We've seen a fair amount of discombobulated possessions on offense, more than we generally see with Rondo running the offense. That's something that matters to the team, but you'll never be able to see that by comparing the per 36 numbers for two players.

I'm one of those people that HATED Crawford. I do think that Brad Stevens has pulled the guys head in some how. His shots are still fairly crazy but they are shots he hits- and he's taking less of those terrible shots and dishing the ball as the point guard more.
He's getting 4 more minutes per game as a starter in Boston than he did in Washington, yet he's taking one less shot per game and increased his assist total by almost 2 assists per game in 4 more minutes. He's also improved his turnovers from 2.3 to 2 a game. His head is screwed on a bit more. Playing with some professionals, in a secure environment- and now being given a chance to prove his worth as a young man transitioning into adulthood- has changed him just enough to make him understand what he needs to do in order to make some rap music money playing this game.

Ok to cut confusion we'll look at last season per 36 minutes. (I'll put these on the first page of the OP too)
The numbers from Rondo's 38 games last year based on 36 minutes per game(he averaged 37.4 mins per game) and Jordan Crawfords 24 games this year( he averages 30 mins per game).

Rajon Rondo per 36 minutes:

13.2 ppg (13.7 per 37.4 mins)
10.6 assists (11.1 per 37.4 mins)
5.4 rebounds (5.8 per 37.4)
1.8 steals
3.7 turnovers
3 point shooting 24%
Free throws 64.5%
Offensive rating 103
Defensive rating 103
Usage rate 21.7%
Win shares per 100 games= 10.8 wins
PER 18.1


Jordan Crawford per 36 minutes


17.1 points (currently 14.2 on 30 mins per game)
6.6 assists (currently 5.5 per 30 mins)
4 rebounds (3.3 per 30 mins)
1.2 steals, (currently 1 per 30 mins)
2.4 turnovers (currently 2)
3 point shooting 39.6%
Free throws 85.9%
Offensive rating 115
Defensive rating 106
Usage rate 21.8%
Win shares per 100 games= 17.3 per 100 games
PER 19.6

I agree Rondo's effect can't always be seen- but Crawford shooting ability (although only 24 games in) is something that counters the rest of our teams poor shooting.
I guess an argument is that if Rondo comes back and can't get to the rim- does his lack of shooting make it even harder for a team that struggles to score in the paint to score points?

Anyway, I'm not dissing Rondo here- I just want people to see how well Crawford is playing and how I seriously believe Ainge (a numbers guy), will be going through a tough decision on what to do with JCraw. Even 2 months ago I would have said 'get rid of him because his hot streak will end soon'. But I don't think it will end- he's changed his game and his decision making has matured immensely- he's getting numbers that are somewhat comparable to production with a top 5 point guard.
Ainge hit the jackpot- too bad we didn't sign him a few months earlier.

[chambers]

Do we have an All Star on our hands? (posted in another thread but very relevant here)

Jrue Holiday per 36 Philly 2012-13
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/holidjr01.html#per_minute::none

J Craw per 36 2013-14
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crawfjo02.html#per_minute::none

better turnovers, threes, same points, slightly lower assists (with arguably worse shooters), better FT, better offensive and defensive ratings, better win shares for Craw.

[BballTim]

Do we have an All Star on our hands? (posted in another thread but very relevant here)

Jrue Holiday per 36 Philly 2012-13
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/holidjr01.html#per_minute::none

J Craw per 36 2013-14
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crawfjo02.html#per_minute::none

better turnovers, threes, same points, slightly lower assists (with arguably worse shooters), better FT, better offensive and defensive ratings, better win shares for Craw.

  He'd definitely need to keep up his shooting to have a chance. Right now there are 5 point guards (Irving, Wall, Teague, Jennings and Lowry) that are averaging more ppg and more apg than Crawford. He'd also probably need Rondo to stay on the sidelines for a while to even have an outside shot.

[BballTim]

Haha I thought this thread would create some discussion.
Actually Crawford's per 36 stats were almost the same in Washington- he was just not passing as well and taking worse shots.

I'd love to have both guys but after Crawford's season I don't know if he's gonna be affordable. Surely he's better than Kemba Walker?

The dilemma is Rondo coming back from injury and the ability to walk away in 15 months time.

I got Rondos stats from basketball-reference.com and yes Rondo's stats are correct.
Perhaps people don't ever actually look at Rondos stats other than rebounds and assists?

Crawfords presence has meant that even if Rondo returns for half a season, his impact wont be as huge as some think unless his shooting percentages improve dramatically.

  People do actually look at Rondo's numbers, the numbers you used weren't Rondo's per36 numbers, I'm not sure what they were. Crawford started 14 games last season and averaged about 16/5/6 although he was turning the ball over more and scoring less efficiently. I'd have to wonder whether he's taking better shots or just hitting more of them, I think he takes some fairly ill-advised shots.

  As for Rondo, it's hard to say what his impact will be this year because nobody knows how long it will take him to get back to full speed. The impact he makes isn't really dependent on  his shooting percentages, just like it hasn't been for the last 7 years. One way he makes an impact, btw, is how well he runs an offense. We've seen a fair amount of discombobulated possessions on offense, more than we generally see with Rondo running the offense. That's something that matters to the team, but you'll never be able to see that by comparing the per 36 numbers for two players.

I'm one of those people that HATED Crawford. I do think that Brad Stevens has pulled the guys head in some how. His shots are still fairly crazy but they are shots he hits- and he's taking less of those terrible shots and dishing the ball as the point guard more.
He's getting 4 more minutes per game as a starter in Boston than he did in Washington, yet he's taking one less shot per game and increased his assist total by almost 2 assists per game in 4 more minutes. He's also improved his turnovers from 2.3 to 2 a game. His head is screwed on a bit more. Playing with some professionals, in a secure environment- and now being given a chance to prove his worth as a young man transitioning into adulthood- has changed him just enough to make him understand what he needs to do in order to make some rap music money playing this game.

Ok to cut confusion we'll look at last season per 36 minutes. (I'll put these on the first page of the OP too)
The numbers from Rondo's 38 games last year based on 36 minutes per game(he averaged 37.4 mins per game) and Jordan Crawfords 24 games this year( he averages 30 mins per game).

Rajon Rondo per 36 minutes:

13.2 ppg (13.7 per 37.4 mins)
10.6 assists (11.1 per 37.4 mins)
5.4 rebounds (5.8 per 37.4)
1.8 steals
3.7 turnovers
3 point shooting 24%
Free throws 64.5%
Offensive rating 103
Defensive rating 103
Usage rate 21.7%
Win shares per 100 games= 10.8 wins
PER 18.1


Jordan Crawford per 36 minutes


17.1 points (currently 14.2 on 30 mins per game)
6.6 assists (currently 5.5 per 30 mins)
4 rebounds (3.3 per 30 mins)
1.2 steals, (currently 1 per 30 mins)
2.4 turnovers (currently 2)
3 point shooting 39.6%
Free throws 85.9%
Offensive rating 115
Defensive rating 106
Usage rate 21.8%
Win shares per 100 games= 17.3 per 100 games
PER 19.6

I agree Rondo's effect can't always be seen- but Crawford shooting ability (although only 24 games in) is something that counters the rest of our teams poor shooting.
I guess an argument is that if Rondo comes back and can't get to the rim- does his lack of shooting make it even harder for a team that struggles to score in the paint to score points?

Anyway, I'm not dissing Rondo here- I just want people to see how well Crawford is playing and how I seriously believe Ainge (a numbers guy), will be going through a tough decision on what to do with JCraw. Even 2 months ago I would have said 'get rid of him because his hot streak will end soon'. But I don't think it will end- he's changed his game and his decision making has matured immensely- he's getting numbers that are somewhat comparable to production with a top 5 point guard.
Ainge hit the jackpot- too bad we didn't sign him a few months earlier.

  Sure, Crawford's played better than expected, although I'm skeptical that "His shots are still fairly crazy but they are shots he hits" will last. I think he'd be a great 3rd guard but he's not a great point guard and the thought that we should keep him over Rondo is fairly ludicrous.

[Celtics4ever]

Crawford makes AB expendable....

[European NBA fan]

Please do not label a post as trolling because you do not agree with its content. 

It could be a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. Like any pejorative term, it can be used as an ad hominem attack, suggesting a negative motivation.

The post was neither confusing or off topic.

I'm sorry if you real meant it.

I just don't get it:

Rondo not having any good coaches? (Oak Hill Academy, Orlando Smith, Doc Rivers)

Sitting on the bench trying to learn about team concept?
(Ubuntu/being a team leader/acting as assistant coach/coming back from ACL injury/being most vocal player at practice - take your pick)

Rondo who? 4*all star, 4*all defensive teams, 2*NBA assist leader, 1*NBA champion ao. Everyone is replaceable, but Rondo might be harder to replace, than you think.

[crimson_stallion]

Ok, vast exhageration of a Player's ability based on a short early sample size...fair enough, I've seen this  before.

Let me just clarify something...Jordan Crawford right now is averaging 14 PPG, 5.5 APG and 3 RPG.

Last season Rondo averaged 14 PPG, 11 APG and 5.5 RPG.

Rajon Rondo is an elite PG in this league, one of the All-Time leaders in triple doubles (already), and a multi-time All Star and All Defensive team selection.  Crawford will never make an All Defensive team, and I seriously doubt he'll ever make an All Star team.

Don't get me wrong, I am really thrilled with what I've seen from Crawford so far this season, but he's not a star.  I think his celing is Jamal Crawford (an elite 6th man or solid starter).

I think he'd be an absolutely fantastic 6th man for us backing up both Bradley (at SG) and Rondo (at PG) for about 30 minutes a night.  I wouldn't start him over Rondo or over Bradley because he doesn't have Rondo's skill level or (IMO) Bradley's potential. 

[Roy H.]

Ok, vast exhageration of a Player's ability based on a short early sample size...fair enough, I've seen this  before.

That's how I feel.  Call me a skeptic, but I'm hesitant to reward anybody with a big contract after they suddenly, in a contract year, showcase skills and commitment that they've never consistently shown before.

Remember this guy?

[Sketch5]

I love what Crawford is doing right now, but Im not confident that he could lead a contending team. Rondo has proven he can do just that.

I don't see why we can't have both. 

[Chris]

Ok, vast exhageration of a Player's ability based on a short early sample size...fair enough, I've seen this  before.

That's how I feel.  Call me a skeptic, but I'm hesitant to reward anybody with a big contract after they suddenly, in a contract year, showcase skills and commitment that they've never consistently shown before.

Remember this guy?

I am not sure that is what is happening here.  I just think that we are seeing a bit of a statistical aberation, due to a relatively small sample size, and a perfect situation for him.

The thing about Crawford is that he is a solid all-around offensive player (defense is still a big question-mark).  He is a guy who can be a volume scorer when he is hot, and he can pass a bit, and even be a solid floor leader on a mediocre team that doesn't have a better player to have the balls in his hands.  And unfortunately, Crawford has shown throughout his career that he really needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

I think two things are going to start happening sooner rather than later.

1. Teams are going to really get a book on him, and start taking away HIS shots. 

2. He is going to be replaced with simply a better player (Rondo), and will be forced to not always have the ball in his hands. 

How will he respond to those?

I do however, think Crawford is legitimately improving and maturing.  I just don't think he is a starting PG on a good team.  His role is likely going to be as a backup PG/combo-guard.  Someone in the Jamal Crawford/Jason Terry mold. 

Honestly, the number that is most important from this season, isn't the assists, or the scoring numbers, or even the regular shooting percentage.  It is the 39+% from 3.  If Jordan Crawford is going to remain an impact player in this league, it is going to be as an instant offense player off the bench.  Those guys really need to be good outside shooters.  If he can become a consistent high thirties+ percentage three point shooter, then I think he is going to have a long career, and get paid.