Are we too Good to be Bad but too Bad to get anywhere?

[Jailan34]

NO lotto pick, bad record, but not bad enough.  Stuck in NO MAN's LAND.  Nightmare.  Someone tell me this isn't the scenario.  But it sure looks like it.

The Celtics are not stuck in no man's land.  They have a lot of young players with upside and a ton of draft picks.  Being stuck on what has been called the treadmill of mediocrity means you are a middle team that is locked into a core that is unlikely to improve yet hard to trade, with no cap flexibility to sign a free agent.

If the Celtics are a middle-of-the-pack team this season, there is no reason to believe that guarantees the team will be in the same range next season because Ainge has the flexibility to make many different moves.

Our picks for this year don't seem to be top ten though, which makes them not overly valuable. Also our players don't right have the highest upside. Sully clearly has the highest, he could make a few all star teams. Other than Sully though none of our players would bring back much in a trade.

Also, because the east is so bad this year, we could be WORSE next year. If we make the playoffs as the 4th seed with a losing record and miss out on this draft, what happens next year if the league returns to normal? What if we miss the playoffs next year, IMO that would make this year truly wasted.

[playdream]

NO lotto pick, bad record, but not bad enough.  Stuck in NO MAN's LAND.  Nightmare.  Someone tell me this isn't the scenario.  But it sure looks like it.

The Celtics are not stuck in no man's land.  They have a lot of young players with upside and a ton of draft picks.  Being stuck on what has been called the treadmill of mediocrity means you are a middle team that is locked into a core that is unlikely to improve yet hard to trade, with no cap flexibility to sign a free agent.

If the Celtics are a middle-of-the-pack team this season, there is no reason to believe that guarantees the team will be in the same range next season because Ainge has the flexibility to make many different moves.

Our picks for this year don't seem to be top ten though, which makes them not overly valuable. Also our players don't right have the highest upside. Sully clearly has the highest, he could make a few all star teams. Other than Sully though none of our players would bring back much in a trade.

Also, because the east is so bad this year, we could be WORSE next year. If we make the playoffs as the 4th seed with a losing record and miss out on this draft, what happens next year if the league returns to normal? What if we miss the playoffs next year, IMO that would make this year truly wasted.

agreed, middle first round picks and average players isn't going to help much
we can very possible waste years of time and our only star Rondo can not wait

[LooseCannon]

NO lotto pick, bad record, but not bad enough.  Stuck in NO MAN's LAND.  Nightmare.  Someone tell me this isn't the scenario.  But it sure looks like it.

The Celtics are not stuck in no man's land.  They have a lot of young players with upside and a ton of draft picks.  Being stuck on what has been called the treadmill of mediocrity means you are a middle team that is locked into a core that is unlikely to improve yet hard to trade, with no cap flexibility to sign a free agent.

If the Celtics are a middle-of-the-pack team this season, there is no reason to believe that guarantees the team will be in the same range next season because Ainge has the flexibility to make many different moves.

Our picks for this year don't seem to be top ten though, which makes them not overly valuable. Also our players don't right have the highest upside. Sully clearly has the highest, he could make a few all star teams. Other than Sully though none of our players would bring back much in a trade.

Also, because the east is so bad this year, we could be WORSE next year. If we make the playoffs as the 4th seed with a losing record and miss out on this draft, what happens next year if the league returns to normal? What if we miss the playoffs next year, IMO that would make this year truly wasted.

Well, if you have your heart set on building around a lottery pick, it sounds like you are more likely to be able to draft a mainstay center in 2015 rather than 2014.

That mass of picks has great value because few teams are capable of throwing more than a couple of firsts into a deal should a very good player who is worth a bunch of picks become available.

[Celtics18]

NO lotto pick, bad record, but not bad enough.  Stuck in NO MAN's LAND.  Nightmare.  Someone tell me this isn't the scenario.  But it sure looks like it.

The Celtics are not stuck in no man's land.  They have a lot of young players with upside and a ton of draft picks.  Being stuck on what has been called the treadmill of mediocrity means you are a middle team that is locked into a core that is unlikely to improve yet hard to trade, with no cap flexibility to sign a free agent.

If the Celtics are a middle-of-the-pack team this season, there is no reason to believe that guarantees the team will be in the same range next season because Ainge has the flexibility to make many different moves.

Our picks for this year don't seem to be top ten though, which makes them not overly valuable. Also our players don't right have the highest upside. Sully clearly has the highest, he could make a few all star teams. Other than Sully though none of our players would bring back much in a trade.

Also, because the east is so bad this year, we could be WORSE next year. If we make the playoffs as the 4th seed with a losing record and miss out on this draft, what happens next year if the league returns to normal? What if we miss the playoffs next year, IMO that would make this year truly wasted.

Do you think that if we tank our way to a bottom three record this year and land a top draft pick, that we will automatically be a playoff team by next year?  I don't think that's anywhere near a given. 

And, what if we do make the playoffs this year and miss them next year?  It just means you'll get your lottery wish a year later. 

[More Banners]

Look, that's where our roster is for this year, sure.  No big deal.

We have the ability to improve the team in a number of ways:

A)  Trades, using expirings and picks, or solid veteran role players.

B)  Return of a star to the top of the roster.

C)  Development of current players (happening w/Sully)

D)  $10M TPE to use in early FA

E)  Oh, and of course, we could use those picks ourselves.


The draft is probably only a small part of the way that we'll improve in the next two years.  Let's not screw everything else up by focusing too much on a high pick.

Those shooting for the draft probably don't have much else going for them.  We do.

[hpantazo]

The KG-Pierce-Terry trade was brilliant, and its why we are in great shape. The Nets picks are just going to get better every year, we don't have to tank to get good draft picks. This year is the only exception because of the Hawks right to swap picks, otherwise we are golden. As others have said, we can also offer a ton of picks and cap space if an all-star becomes available, and said all-star would likely be much more inclined to come here if we are winning and our young guys and coach are doing well.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

[hpantazo]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

exactly, and Danny didn't have a trade exception or so many 1st round picks back then and he still landed KG and Ray for lesser players than what he can offer now. Sullinger, KO, Bradley, Green, Bass, Crawford are all solid assets to go along with Humphs expiring contract, a trade exception, and draft picks. Ainge has an arsenal of assets, he just has to use them wisely.

[wdleehi]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

exactly, and Danny didn't have a trade exception or so many 1st round picks back then and he still landed KG and Ray for lesser players than what he can offer now. Sullinger, KO, Bradley, Green, Bass, Crawford are all solid assets to go along with Humphs expiring contract, a trade exception, and draft picks. Ainge has an arsenal of assets, he just has to use them wisely.

Al Jefferson had a higher ceiling at that point then anyone the Celtics have now.  And he didn't have an back injury concern.



Green then was still considered a prospect.

They had a near max player to go with them


And they had the 5th pick to get Ray to make a Vet like KG want to go to Boston.




Boston today has more "picks", but are any of them the "5th pick" level?

[jambr380]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

exactly, and Danny didn't have a trade exception or so many 1st round picks back then and he still landed KG and Ray for lesser players than what he can offer now. Sullinger, KO, Bradley, Green, Bass, Crawford are all solid assets to go along with Humphs expiring contract, a trade exception, and draft picks. Ainge has an arsenal of assets, he just has to use them wisely.

Al Jefferson had a higher ceiling at that point then anyone the Celtics have now.  And he didn't have an back injury concern.



Green then was still considered a prospect.

They had a near max player to go with them


And they had the 5th pick to get Ray to make a Vet like KG want to go to Boston.




Boston today has more "picks", but are any of them the "5th pick" level?

Don't forget the sixth pick (could have been Curry, who was taken directly after Flynn) and an additional first in the KG deal. We had a LOT to trade back then - better players/potential, better picks, and very good contracts. If all we have now are picks in the late teens or worse, then we may just end up like Houston a couple of years ago and use them and hope for the best.

[BballTim]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

exactly, and Danny didn't have a trade exception or so many 1st round picks back then and he still landed KG and Ray for lesser players than what he can offer now. Sullinger, KO, Bradley, Green, Bass, Crawford are all solid assets to go along with Humphs expiring contract, a trade exception, and draft picks. Ainge has an arsenal of assets, he just has to use them wisely.

Al Jefferson had a higher ceiling at that point then anyone the Celtics have now.  And he didn't have an back injury concern.



Green then was still considered a prospect.

They had a near max player to go with them


And they had the 5th pick to get Ray to make a Vet like KG want to go to Boston.




Boston today has more "picks", but are any of them the "5th pick" level?

  It's true Sully has a back issue but I'd say he's at least close to the prospect Al (who'd had ankle issues back then) was. And we don't have a 5th pick, but we have a ton of other picks. An aside, but I think we'd likely have made the Ray trade with a pick lower than 5th, or if it was much lower with a future pick thrown in. For Seattle the trade was (IMO) more about moving Ray than acquiring assets.

[Spicoli]

I find myself rooting for them to win against teams that i despise, but i also find myself rooting for losses (better draft position) against everyone else. I don't know how right or wrong this is, but this is how i've been getting through such a strange season, where it's impossible to determine how good or bad the team actually is.

[Jailan34]

NO lotto pick, bad record, but not bad enough.  Stuck in NO MAN's LAND.  Nightmare.  Someone tell me this isn't the scenario.  But it sure looks like it.

The Celtics are not stuck in no man's land.  They have a lot of young players with upside and a ton of draft picks.  Being stuck on what has been called the treadmill of mediocrity means you are a middle team that is locked into a core that is unlikely to improve yet hard to trade, with no cap flexibility to sign a free agent.

If the Celtics are a middle-of-the-pack team this season, there is no reason to believe that guarantees the team will be in the same range next season because Ainge has the flexibility to make many different moves.

Our picks for this year don't seem to be top ten though, which makes them not overly valuable. Also our players don't right have the highest upside. Sully clearly has the highest, he could make a few all star teams. Other than Sully though none of our players would bring back much in a trade.

Also, because the east is so bad this year, we could be WORSE next year. If we make the playoffs as the 4th seed with a losing record and miss out on this draft, what happens next year if the league returns to normal? What if we miss the playoffs next year, IMO that would make this year truly wasted.

Do you think that if we tank our way to a bottom three record this year and land a top draft pick, that we will automatically be a playoff team by next year?  I don't think that's anywhere near a given. 

And, what if we do make the playoffs this year and miss them next year?  It just means you'll get your lottery wish a year later. 

I never said if we tank this year that we'd be in the playoffs the next. I realize it's a process and would take time.

If we tank this year (which isn't looking realistic) I would expect us to be back into the playoffs in 3-4 years. One to two years drafting players with picks, year three if DA brings in the right vets and missing parts we would make a run for a low seed.

And if we miss this draft just to make the playoffs and get booted in the first round thats not all bad. It does give the team something to build on. However, if the east returns to normal and we don't make the playoffs we wouldn't be building upon anything. We'd go into the lottery next year, then we wasted a great draft class full of potential.

Essentially we'd be putting the re-build off for another two years just to make the playoffs in a very down year for the east. Seems silly.

[SHAQATTACK]

I think we ll always be bad until we get some elite talent to go with KO and Sully.

[D.o.s.]

That's exactly where we are OP. Also, we currently have only one high value trade asset, which is Rondo. Everything else is mediocre and wouldn't bring much back in a trade. It's a tough spot. Danny will have to rely on a trade to get this team some premium talent and I don't believe he has enough chips to make a big deal.

I don't know. Danny got KG for, essentially, Al Jeff and a bunch of spare parts. I think Boston currently could offer better than that if Danny wanted (Sully, Green, AB, KO, picks).

Anyway, yeah, I wish the East were a lot better, so we could just enjoy our guys developing while knowing we'd still be in line for a good draft pick.

But who knows, if we get a middling pick, maybe Danny will package some picks and players to move up, or just go for a KG-type trade.

It does seem kind of silly to me, though, to ship off, say, Sully, Bradley, and a pick or two for a top-3 pick this year—we'd be getting (allegedly) a can't-miss franchise player, but taking a step back (in my opinion) in overall team talent.

exactly, and Danny didn't have a trade exception or so many 1st round picks back then and he still landed KG and Ray for lesser players than what he can offer now. Sullinger, KO, Bradley, Green, Bass, Crawford are all solid assets to go along with Humphs expiring contract, a trade exception, and draft picks. Ainge has an arsenal of assets, he just has to use them wisely.

Al Jefferson had a higher ceiling at that point then anyone the Celtics have now.  And he didn't have an back injury concern.



Green then was still considered a prospect.

They had a near max player to go with them


And they had the 5th pick to get Ray to make a Vet like KG want to go to Boston.




Boston today has more "picks", but are any of them the "5th pick" level?

Don't forget the sixth pick (could have been Curry, who was taken directly after Flynn) and an additional first in the KG deal. We had a LOT to trade back then - better players/potential, better picks, and very good contracts. If all we have now are picks in the late teens or worse, then we may just end up like Houston a couple of years ago and use them and hope for the best.

If the Houston Rockets had been in the East they would've made the playoffs every year for the last ten years, and most of the time with at least one round of home court advantage--and that's during their accumulating assets phases as well as during the McGrady/Yao injuryfest:


02-03: 43-39
03-04: 45-37
04-05: 51-31
05-06: 34-48
06-07: 52-30
07-08: 55-27
08-09: 53-29
09-10: 42-40
10-11: 43-39
11-12: 34-32
12-13: 45-37

I've got no real problem with that.