Could not be more proud of this team

[PhoSita]

Second, do you know how good the 2015, 2016, 2017 or 2018 class of draftees is going to be?

I don't.  I do know, however, that many people who know a lot more about the draft than I do -- people who scout draft prospects for a living -- have said repeatedly that this draft is uncommonly strong, with multiple guys who would be the consensus number 1 in a different year.

So no, I can't say that every single draft after this one won't be just as strong.  But I think there's reason to believe that won't be the case.

[BudweiserCeltic]

A ton of money without the means to spend is not worth much, particularly with Brooklyn having pretty much depleted all their future assets, so they're quite stuck.

Yeah, I understand.  I just see that the Nets are still going to have Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Lopez moving forward, and they have no incentive at all to not go all-in every season since they have no picks.

I think they'll find ways to at least be a break-even team and compete for the playoffs.

That's the point, what does all-in even mean when you have pretty much nothing to go all-in with?

They have no cap space, they're way over the luxury tax, so they'll only have the mini-mle to work with, etc.

They're screwed, particularly since two of their core players are often injured.

[PhoSita]

A ton of money without the means to spend is not worth much, particularly with Brooklyn having pretty much depleted all their future assets, so they're quite stuck.

Yeah, I understand.  I just see that the Nets are still going to have Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Lopez moving forward, and they have no incentive at all to not go all-in every season since they have no picks.

I think they'll find ways to at least be a break-even team and compete for the playoffs.

That's the point, what does all-in even mean when you have pretty much nothing to go all-in with?

They have no cap space, they're way over the luxury tax, so they'll only have the mini-mle to work with, etc.

They're screwed, particularly since two of their core players are often injured.

Their options are certainly limited, but they do have options.  Like I said, if they had to, I think they'd trade Deron and / or Lopez in order to put together a marketable semi-competitive roster.

[BudweiserCeltic]

A ton of money without the means to spend is not worth much, particularly with Brooklyn having pretty much depleted all their future assets, so they're quite stuck.

Yeah, I understand.  I just see that the Nets are still going to have Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Lopez moving forward, and they have no incentive at all to not go all-in every season since they have no picks.

I think they'll find ways to at least be a break-even team and compete for the playoffs.

That's the point, what does all-in even mean when you have pretty much nothing to go all-in with?

They have no cap space, they're way over the luxury tax, so they'll only have the mini-mle to work with, etc.

They're screwed, particularly since two of their core players are often injured.

Their options are certainly limited, but they do have options.  Like I said, if they had to, I think they'd trade Deron and / or Lopez in order to put together a marketable semi-competitive roster.

Which has nothing to do with having a rich owner with money to spend to win at all cost, which was the particular point I was addressing.

And after these stinkers, good luck moving Deron and Lopez, once again without having draft picks available to them to help make a move to improve themselves, particularly with Deron's massive contract.

Their best move would be to trade Pierce at the trade deadline, and Garnett if possible who'll be a bit more difficult with his two year deal, considered old, and threatening retirement year after year. So we'll see how that pans out because outside of that, if they don't start clicking, they're screwed for years to come, and I have little doubt about that on that regard.

[PhoSita]

A ton of money without the means to spend is not worth much, particularly with Brooklyn having pretty much depleted all their future assets, so they're quite stuck.

Yeah, I understand.  I just see that the Nets are still going to have Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Lopez moving forward, and they have no incentive at all to not go all-in every season since they have no picks.

I think they'll find ways to at least be a break-even team and compete for the playoffs.

That's the point, what does all-in even mean when you have pretty much nothing to go all-in with?

They have no cap space, they're way over the luxury tax, so they'll only have the mini-mle to work with, etc.

They're screwed, particularly since two of their core players are often injured.

Their options are certainly limited, but they do have options.  Like I said, if they had to, I think they'd trade Deron and / or Lopez in order to put together a marketable semi-competitive roster.

Which has nothing to do with having a rich owner with money to spend to win at all cost, which was the particular point I was addressing.

And after these stinkers, good luck moving Deron and Lopez, once again without having draft picks available to them to help make a move to improve themselves, particularly with Deron's massive contract.

There will be teams willing to trade for Deron or Lopez.

The money comes into play because it means the Nets will have no qualms about taking on bad contracts or otherwise making further financial commitments even just to improve enough to be a half-decent team.



Imagine, for example -- the Nets trade Deron, Terry, and filler for Kemba Walker, Cody Zeller, MKG, and Ben Gordon.

[LooseCannon]

I do openly regret, however, that the league is so top heavy that the Celtics, despite being so far away from having the pieces to compete with the best in the league, are still good enough in such a weak division and conference to get out of the running for a really valuable pick in the upcoming draft.  I just don't see what there is to celebrate about that.

I'm celebrating that I was right about this team not being a surefire bottom five team.  Sure, they could still end up there (especially with the help of injuries), but I feel good about myself predicting that this Celtics roster could make the playoffs with a bit of hard work and luck.

[PhoSita]

I do openly regret, however, that the league is so top heavy that the Celtics, despite being so far away from having the pieces to compete with the best in the league, are still good enough in such a weak division and conference to get out of the running for a really valuable pick in the upcoming draft.  I just don't see what there is to celebrate about that.

I'm celebrating that I was right about this team not being a surefire bottom five team.  Sure, they could still end up there (especially with the help of injuries), but I feel good about myself predicting that this Celtics roster could make the playoffs with a bit of hard work and luck.

Well, cool.  I don't begrudge you that.  Feel good about being right.

What you seem to have correctly predicted however, is not something especially positive for the future of the team, in my opinion.

[obnoxiousmime]

There's no doubt in my mind Ainge intended to "tank" (i don't mean lose intentionally, just take a step back and start rebuilding the core) this season. They could have rebooted multiple times the last few seasons but they chose this one before a great draft that every lottery team is salivating over. That's not a coincidence and it's the reason Rivers left. He didn't want to be on a rebuilding team, which is what we are this year. Why do you think they're being super-extra-careful with Rondo?

I get it, it's great to see the team win. It's exciting when they outperform expectations. However it shouldn't cloud the fact that this team still isn't very close to being a contender. If the Eastern Conference were not historically bad this season we wouldn't be close to the playoffs and our record wouldn't be as inflated.

Obviously the quotes from Ainge are meaningless. Of course he is going to say positive, team-rallying things. But ask him if he's going make any moves this season to make the team better THIS year as opposed to the future and the true answer would undoubtedly be no. Instead of saying he's not surprised the team is playing better than expected, he should be saying "Nobody expected that the East would be so pathetic this year."

[PhoSita]

There's no doubt in my mind Ainge intended to "tank" (i don't mean lose intentionally, just take a step back and start rebuilding the core) this season. They could have rebooted multiple times the last few seasons but they chose this one before a great draft that every lottery team is salivating over. That's not a coincidence and it's the reason Rivers left. He didn't want to be on a rebuilding team, which is what we are this year. Why do you think they're being super-extra-careful with Rondo?

I get it, it's great to see the team win. It's exciting when they outperform expectations. However it shouldn't cloud the fact that this team still isn't very close to being a contender. If the Eastern Conference were not historically bad this season we wouldn't be close to the playoffs and our record wouldn't be as inflated.

Obviously the quotes from Ainge are meaningless. Of course he is going to say positive, team-rallying things. But ask him if he's going make any moves this season to make the team better THIS year as opposed to the future and the true answer would undoubtedly be no. Instead of saying he's not surprised the team is playing better than expected, he should be saying "Nobody expected that the East would be so pathetic this year."

Agreed. TP

[BballTim]

This team has shown some fight.  I like some of the players on this team.

That said, I really think the better than expected record has more to do with how weak the league is outside of the top 8-10 teams.  A team has to be truly, truly terrible through the first part of this season in order to "tank."

That's one way to look at it.  I must point at, though, that during the off-season, and the early part of the season, many of you were absolutely convinced that our Celtics couldn't possibly be anything but one of the five worst teams in the league.

At the time, some of us (me) tried to point out that one of the primary reasons for thinking this team could compete for a playoff berth was exactly because there were a lot of other teams in the league that didn't look like they'd be particularly imposing as challengers by comparison to the Celtics. 

Of course, I was mostly derided, scoffed at, or just completely ignored for suggesting such anti-Wiggins or Parker heresy. 

Now that the Celtics look like they may be in a better position relative to everybody else than most of you thought was possible, it turns out that no one could have foreseen that this team may be able to compete for a playoff berth?

The truth is that those of us (me) who were paying a little attention could have foreseen it . . . and did.

I still don't believe this team will make the playoffs.

You should get credit, though, for thinking the team would be better than abysmal.  You were right.


That said, though, so far the only record that really means much to me is the team's record against good teams.  I don't really care much how good the Celtics are relative to the other mediocre teams.

So far, the Celtics have played 8 or 9 games against good teams -- depending on your opinion of the Nuggets sans Gallinari and McGee -- and other than the Nuggets game, they've managed to win one of those games, on a miraculous last-second shot.  In the other games -- against Memphis, Indiana, San Antonio, Houston, Minnesota, etc -- they weren't really competitive.

  Right now the Celts are 3-5 against teams that currently have .500 or better records. Clearly they have work to do but things aren't as dire as you're describing.

This team is still nowhere close to really competing against the best teams in the league, in my opinion.  I think that'll be true even once Rondo returns.  It just turns out the middle and bottom of the league are even weaker than I had expected.

  I think if you added Rondo and brought in a decent center you'd be a step below the top teams but a solid playoff team. After that you'd probably want to bring in a good wing player. Considering all of the assets Danny has that's not out of the question, and you'd be at least a fringe contender.

[PhoSita]

  Right now the Celts are 3-5 against teams that currently have .500 or better records. Clearly they have work to do but things aren't as dire as you're describing.

The Celtics own solid wins against Atlanta and Denver, and a miracle, last-second win against Miami.

They weren't competitive against Indiana, San Antonio, Houston, or Portland.  They got blown out by Minnesota, too.

That's a small sample size.  Admittedly, those results are better than what I would have predicted before the start of the season.  But my impression from that group of games is that this team isn't especially competitive.

This team is still nowhere close to really competing against the best teams in the league, in my opinion.  I think that'll be true even once Rondo returns.  It just turns out the middle and bottom of the league are even weaker than I had expected.

  I think if you added Rondo and brought in a decent center you'd be a step below the top teams but a solid playoff team. After that you'd probably want to bring in a good wing player. Considering all of the assets Danny has that's not out of the question, and you'd be at least a fringe contender.

Not sure about fringe contender.  Entertaining little team, sure.

Trading for / signing a couple second tier stars (e.g. Greg Monroe and Arron Afflalo) without gutting the team seems plausible to me.  That could be a fun group for a few years before it got to be too expensive to be worth it.  Might even make it past the second round once or twice.

[BballTim]

  Right now the Celts are 3-5 against teams that currently have .500 or better records. Clearly they have work to do but things aren't as dire as you're describing.

The Celtics own solid wins against Atlanta and Denver, and a miracle, last-second win against Miami.

They weren't competitive against Indiana, San Antonio, Houston, or Portland.  They got blown out by Minnesota, too.

That's a small sample size.  Admittedly, those results are better than what I would have predicted before the start of the season.  But my impression from that group of games is that this team isn't especially competitive.

This team is still nowhere close to really competing against the best teams in the league, in my opinion.  I think that'll be true even once Rondo returns.  It just turns out the middle and bottom of the league are even weaker than I had expected.

  I think if you added Rondo and brought in a decent center you'd be a step below the top teams but a solid playoff team. After that you'd probably want to bring in a good wing player. Considering all of the assets Danny has that's not out of the question, and you'd be at least a fringe contender.

Not sure about fringe contender.  Entertaining little team, sure.

Trading for / signing a couple second tier stars (e.g. Greg Monroe and Arron Afflalo) without gutting the team seems plausible to me.  That could be a fun group for a few years before it got to be too expensive to be worth it.  Might even make it past the second round once or twice.

  I would argue that a team that makes the conference finals more than once is a fringe contender. But you're bringing up a couple of fairly doable moves and it's possible that other players (say Asik or DeRozan) could also be available. You'd have a good team full of young(ish) players and some time for Danny to pull off a big move.

[Jailan34]

Just upset this team has to completely rely on a trade to get back into contention. I was looking forward to having some real high potential young talent to watch develop. Hope Danny finds this trade everyone seems to be talking about. I just don't see the plan for the future of this team, any other year in the nba and this is a bottom of the barrel team. They could be worse next year than they are this year.

[BballTim]

Just upset this team has to completely rely on a trade to get back into contention. I was looking forward to having some real high potential young talent to watch develop. Hope Danny finds this trade everyone seems to be talking about. I just don't see the plan for the future of this team, any other year in the nba and this is a bottom of the barrel team. They could be worse next year than they are this year.

  Clearly you were counting on a top draft pick this year, but this isn't the end of the world. I guess you could root for injuries or a strong resurgence from the rest of the bad teams though.

[PhoSita]

  I would argue that a team that makes the conference finals more than once is a fringe contender. But you're bringing up a couple of fairly doable moves and it's possible that other players (say Asik or DeRozan) could also be available. You'd have a good team full of young(ish) players and some time for Danny to pull off a big move.

Yeah, look, if this season continues this way, and it looks like the Celtics are headed for a middle of the road finish, I'd be okay if Danny looked at acquiring a couple of players like Monroe and Afflalo as a Plan B.

As I said in another thread in the trade forum, you'd be exchanging the potential highs of drafting a really great player for the comparative security of having a starting lineup of well established yet reasonably young players.  Maybe you get lucky and one of them breaks out, or a true superstar becomes available and you can make a move.

I wouldn't necessarily consider a team that occasionally makes it past the first round a fringe contender, but if, within a season or two after trading Pierce and KG, Ainge gets the opportunity to put together a core that could win 45-55 games a year for a handful of seasons, that could be worth it, provided the price is right.