Author Topic: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.  (Read 24918 times)

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Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2013, 10:44:54 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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This is preposterous! Paul Pierce was the leader of this team as soon as Antoine left. And that didn't change till he was traded to Brooklyn.

ESPN/TNT would have you believing it was KG. Everybody associated with the team would tell you it was Pierce.

I can't believe this is actually being questioned... 

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2013, 10:51:09 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Pierce was a leader? No he wasn't. KG was the alpha male of this team clearly, before that it was 'Toine. Pierce as great as he was, he was never a leader until KG came into town.

I disagree.  Maybe on Defense but not offense.   He was a very good leader.   Look at all the guys who blossomed into good pros under his watch.   Tony Allen, Big Al and tons of others some of these guys were mentored by PP and never played with KG.

Quote
I agree.  Paul took the shots, but this was KG's team from the moment he arrived here until the day he left.  KG changed the culture and the team took on his persona first and foremost.

When the game was on the line PP was our go to guy and leader.   There are different types of leadership.   I think vocal leadership is one of the least effective.   PP gave up shots and sacrificed for team (something Melo will never do).  He lead by example and set the tone.   He also refuses to let us fold when things got tough.  In short, he put the team and others before himself.

Do you even realize who they called the CAPTAIN?  I guess if you poke some holes in a guys post they feel they can warp reality or change history...

Same player, my foot...

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2013, 11:00:46 AM »

Offline BballTim

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This is preposterous! Paul Pierce was the leader of this team as soon as Antoine left. And that didn't change till he was traded to Brooklyn.

ESPN/TNT would have you believing it was KG. Everybody associated with the team would tell you it was Pierce.

I can't believe this is actually being questioned...

  Did you hear something from everyone on the team that was different than what they reported to the media?

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2013, 11:46:34 AM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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If I was PP and I played with an inefficient guy as AW I would be selfish too.  Melo got some guys on his team but he played the same old me first ball.

I think one area your really selling Paul short on is toughness.  Melo is not as mentally or physically as tough as PP was.  I never seen anyone talk PP out of his game.  I seen KG do it to Melo multiple times.

I haven't seen Melo get talked out of a game any time other than KG. There's a tonne of pressure on him in New York. He's also never had team mates that come close to KG, Ray and Rondo on his team. I mean who are the best guys he's gone to war in the playoffs with? Amare on one leg and Tyson Chandler?

You are completely forgetting his Denver years. Pierce never had teammates that good early in his career. Coaching, management, and the system were all pretty top notch for the first 6 or 7 years of Carmelo's career. He really lucked out, imo, and he was never able to do anything with it. First round exit every year except once. I never thought Denver would win the championship, but they were certainly better than one and done. Carmelo barely showed up in 4 out of his first 5 seasons in the playoffs.

Since when did Melo get enough help during his Denver days? Let's list the notable good players (i'd leave the rest, as you know why) he played with during his time with the Nuggets and their opponents when he was "one and done" during the Playoffs.



03-04: Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Nene (2nd year), Voshon Leonard, Earl Boykins. Lost to Minny (KG's MVP year, Sprewell, Cassell).

04-05: Miller, Leonard, Boykins, Camby, Kenyon Martin, Nene. Lost to San Antonio (eventual Champs. Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen)

05-06: Miller, Boykins, Martin, Nene, Camby, Reggie Evans, Linas Kleiza. Lost to Clippers (Brand 24 ppg-10rpg), Maggette (17 ppg), Cassell (17 ppg), Mobley, Kaman)

06-07: Camby, Miller, Martin, Nene, Allen Iverson (biggest help so far, star power wise), Evans. Lost to Spurs (eventual Champions. Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen)

07-08: Camby, Iverson, Martin, Nene, young JR Smith. Swept by Lakers (went to the Finals. Kobe, Pau, Lamar Odom, Fisher)

08-09: Nene, Iverson (half the season), Chauncey Billups (other half and Playoffs), Smith, Martin. Lost to Lakers (eventual Champions. Kobe, Bynum, Pau, Odom) in WCF

09-10: Nene, Aron Afflalo, Smith, Billups, rookie Ty Lawson, Martin. Lost to Utah (Deron Williams, AK47, Boozer)

10-11: With the Knicks now. Chauncey Billups, Landry Fields, Toney Douglas, Jared Jefferies (AMare injured). Lost to us (Big Three and Rondo).

11-12: Tyson Chandler, JR Smith, overweight Baron Davis, Landry Fields (you get the sarcasm), Steve Novak (Amare and Shumpert injured). Lost to the Heat (you know who they are)

12-13: Chandler, Smith, Shumpert, Felton. Lost to Indiana (Paul George, Hibbert, David West)



Out of all those times Melo was in the Playoffs and got bounced in the first round, the only times his team was probably not outmatched was the Clippers series and when he and Iverson went against the Lakers. To the rest, he went against teams with at least two All Stars, one of them being a top 10 player.

They were not better than one and done, outside of 05-06 (they can beat that Clips team) and probably 07-08 (with Iverson). Denver with Anthony was a borderline 6th-8th seed team, because he has no help. Same in New York.

Won't be the same in Boston with Rondo and a possibility of adding another high caliber player with the assets we have.

Never said they were championship caliber, but I'm sorry those rosters are much better than one and done with a legitimate star wing. Pierce would have had those teams playing at a much higher level. I would have loved for Pierce to have guys like Miller, Camby, Billups, Nene, Martin, Smith, or hell even Affalo. All of these guys are arguably more impactful players than Pierce ever got to play with for the most part. (I really don't like Walker in retrospect, game 3 ECF aside). You are really underrating Denver's supporting cast there and are forgetting how weak the NBA was compared to now. You didn't need three big time players to move forward in the playoffs like it feels like nowadays. Pierce would have had these guys at a higher seed and would have given them a better opportunity to move on in the playoffs because they probably wouldn't have had to play the Spurs or Lakers in the first round.

My only real point is that people have to stop comparing Melo to Pierce in terms of them 'figuring' it out. Pierce always knew. He literally had no teammates to play with. Melo, though? He's had plenty of opportunity to lead his team somewhere further than the first round and fails almost every time. His rosters barely had holes in them and were incredibly balanced compared to the rosters we had. Melo actually had real point guards. He had real second options for the most part. He usually had bigs that could actually rebound and defend. All things Pierce never had until '08.

EDIT: ok I'll admit I went a little overboard saying most of those guys are more impactful than Walker. I guess I'm just bitter about what he could have been haha. One thing I won't take back though is the overall talent and balance of those rosters. That's something we never saw here until 2008. I stand by that, and I actually thank you for listing the rosters. I still don't understand how you don't see how talented those rosters are. Those Denver teams are built similarly to the Pacers, IMO, but Melo didn't have the mindset or playmaking ability to take them anywhere past a low seed.

This is preposterous! Paul Pierce was the leader of this team as soon as Antoine left. And that didn't change till he was traded to Brooklyn.

ESPN/TNT would have you believing it was KG. Everybody associated with the team would tell you it was Pierce.

I can't believe this is actually being questioned...

  Did you hear something from everyone on the team that was different than what they reported to the media?

To be fair, I think it's a little silly trying to choose who the leader was of these past 5 years. It was clearly both and Ray. I don't like that KG gets so much credit in the media honestly. Makes me wonder who would get the credit in the media if Pierce was traded to Minny instead. It was obviously equal parts from all sides but I guess the media always has to choose a champion/'savior' to play up storylines.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 12:03:26 PM by DarkAzcura »

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2013, 11:54:10 AM »

Offline Moranis

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How exactly is Boston acquiring Melo, plus all these other players being mentioned in this thread?

We'll be able to offer a max deal this summer. Obviously New York can offer more, but we got a [dang] solid amount of money coming off the books. We can definitely give him a big chunk of change.


We can acquire a good center via trade without exception and picks. I also believe we can move bad contracts with our picks to clear even more space, but that's no guarantee.
Um, Boston doesn't have cap room for a max deal until the summer of 2015 and that only happens if Rondo signs a fairly reasonable deal i.e. about what he makes now.  Otherwise no cap room for a max deal till 2016.
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Starters - Luka, JB, Lebron, Wemby, Shaq
Rotation - D. Daniels, Mitchell, G. Wallace, Melo, Noah
Deep Bench - Korver, Turner

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Never said they were championship caliber, but I'm sorry those rosters are much better than one and done with a legitimate star wing. Pierce would have had those teams playing at a much higher level. I would have loved for Pierce to have guys like Miller, Camby, Billups, Nene, Martin, Smith, or hell even Affalo. All of these guys are arguably more impactful players than Pierce ever got to play with for the most part. (I really don't like Walker in retrospect, game 3 ECF aside). You are really underrating Denver's supporting cast there and are forgetting how weak the NBA was compared to now. You didn't need three big time players to move forward in the playoffs like it feels like nowadays. Pierce would have had these guys at a higher seed and would have given them a better opportunity to move on in the playoffs because they probably wouldn't have had to play the Spurs or Lakers in the first round.

My only real point is that people have to stop comparing Melo to Pierce in terms of them 'figuring' it out. Pierce always knew. He literally had no teammates to play with. Melo, though? He's had plenty of opportunity to lead his team somewhere further than the first round and fails almost every time. His rosters barely had holes in them and were incredibly balanced compared to the rosters we had. Melo actually had real point guards. He had real second options for the most part. He usually had bigs that could actually rebound and defend. All things Pierce never had until '08.

And yet the teams Melo lost to in Denver were far superior to the teams Pierce lost to in Boston.  Melo lost to the eventual NBA champion or WCF champion on multiple occasions.  The competition in the West was far tougher for Melo than it was for Pierce.

Melo has warts, but so did Pierce once upon a time.  I don't think it's entirely fair to put all the blame on Melo when year after year he faces better 'teams', and loses.  The only team I would say was inferior that Melo lost to was the Clippers, and that is questionable.  Put Melo on the '08 Celtics and I wouldn't call it preposterous at all to think they would have still won the title.

Melo can win a title.  Plenty of people thought Pierce/KG/Ray couldn't either, until they did.  It's all about putting the right pieces around him.  No different that any other NBA player.

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2013, 12:05:40 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Never said they were championship caliber, but I'm sorry those rosters are much better than one and done with a legitimate star wing. Pierce would have had those teams playing at a much higher level. I would have loved for Pierce to have guys like Miller, Camby, Billups, Nene, Martin, Smith, or hell even Affalo. All of these guys are arguably more impactful players than Pierce ever got to play with for the most part. (I really don't like Walker in retrospect, game 3 ECF aside). You are really underrating Denver's supporting cast there and are forgetting how weak the NBA was compared to now. You didn't need three big time players to move forward in the playoffs like it feels like nowadays. Pierce would have had these guys at a higher seed and would have given them a better opportunity to move on in the playoffs because they probably wouldn't have had to play the Spurs or Lakers in the first round.

My only real point is that people have to stop comparing Melo to Pierce in terms of them 'figuring' it out. Pierce always knew. He literally had no teammates to play with. Melo, though? He's had plenty of opportunity to lead his team somewhere further than the first round and fails almost every time. His rosters barely had holes in them and were incredibly balanced compared to the rosters we had. Melo actually had real point guards. He had real second options for the most part. He usually had bigs that could actually rebound and defend. All things Pierce never had until '08.

And yet the teams Melo lost to in Denver were far superior to the teams Pierce lost to in Boston.  Melo lost to the eventual NBA champion or WCF champion on multiple occasions.  The competition in the West was far tougher for Melo than it was for Pierce.

Melo has warts, but so did Pierce once upon a time.  I don't think it's entirely fair to put all the blame on Melo when year after year he faces better 'teams', and loses.  The only team I would say was inferior that Melo lost to was the Clippers, and that is questionable.  Put Melo on the '08 Celtics and I wouldn't call it preposterous at all to think they would have still won the title.

Melo can win a title.  Plenty of people thought Pierce/KG/Ray couldn't either, until they did.  It's all about putting the right pieces around him.  No different that any other NBA player.

My point is that Pierce wouldn't had those teams playing the eventual champions in the first round. Remember all the hype about Denver? Those teams were underachievers. It's all anyone really talked about 5-6 years ago. There's a reason the Nuggets didn't really skip a beat replacing Melo's production with Galinari and Wilson Chandler. Both players took care of Melo's scoring easily when combined and since Melo doesn't offer too much else, the Nuggets didn't really change too much. That would have never happened with Pierce. He's not that replaceable.

The '08 Celtics would not have won a championship with Melo. We were highly dependent on Pierce's passing that year. He basically ran our offense while Rondo was still getting his feet wet in the NBA. Melo has not shown this kind of ability in his 10 year career so far.

Pierce lost to the ECF champs twice (the '03 Nets were actually pretty decent and gave the Spurs a run for their money). The '02 Nets were pretty meh, though, so I'll give you that one even if they were the champs of our weak conference. Pierce then lost to the Pacers (a 60 win team) which featured Ron Artest in his prime, Jermaine, and Reggie Miller. They probably would have won the championship if it weren't for Detroit. The next year after that Pierce and Walker lost to the Pacers, which is a series I think the Celtics should have won. That's the only time I was really disappointed with Pierce's maturity, but we still won the that game at least. Lucky for him.

So yeah, Pierce actually did play some really good teams in the playoffs and the Celtics were generally known as overachievers if anything.

Like I've said before, though, I would actually love to have Melo on this team. I think Rondo could actually reign him in and turn him into a great off the ball player. He's no Pierce, though, and I would never want to have Melo with the ball in his hands with 20 seconds left like Pierce. Melo is too one dimensional and only looks to shoot in those situations.

Paul George is the guy who is very similar to Pierce. Not Melo.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 12:23:04 PM by DarkAzcura »

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2013, 12:40:35 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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This is preposterous! Paul Pierce was the leader of this team as soon as Antoine left. And that didn't change till he was traded to Brooklyn.

ESPN/TNT would have you believing it was KG. Everybody associated with the team would tell you it was Pierce.

I can't believe this is actually being questioned...

  Did you hear something from everyone on the team that was different than what they reported to the media?

uhh...yeah I've heard KG many times refer to Pierce as the leader, the captain, the man, go to guy in numerous post game, pre game interviews etc.

KG didn't even "change the culture" like the prognosticators would have you believe. it was the move to get ray & KG here that "changed the culture". I'll give KG all the credit in the world for bringing the defensive emphasis to the team though.


Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2013, 01:00:34 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Carmelo's buddies are thugs, gangsters, and drug dealers. He's a worthless human being to me and I don't want him near the Celts.

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2013, 01:03:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This is preposterous! Paul Pierce was the leader of this team as soon as Antoine left. And that didn't change till he was traded to Brooklyn.

ESPN/TNT would have you believing it was KG. Everybody associated with the team would tell you it was Pierce.

I can't believe this is actually being questioned...

  Did you hear something from everyone on the team that was different than what they reported to the media?

uhh...yeah I've heard KG many times refer to Pierce as the leader, the captain, the man, go to guy in numerous post game, pre game interviews etc.

KG didn't even "change the culture" like the prognosticators would have you believe. it was the move to get ray & KG here that "changed the culture". I'll give KG all the credit in the world for bringing the defensive emphasis to the team though.

  I've heard PP and KG refer to Rondo as the leader of the team. I don't take that to mean neither of them are leaders. PP was a life-long Celtic and KG moved onto Paul's team. I'd say referring to the team as Paul's team was more a sign of respect than anything else. How would it have sounded if KG (or other players) had said it wasn't Paul's team?

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2013, 01:20:11 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/12/5/5178580/george-karl-carmelo-anthony-championships

this guy nails how is different than PP

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12/02/schmeelk-enough-is-enough-its-time-for-carmelo-to-be-a-leader/

leadership, PP had it.  Carmelo has me-dership

Pierce was a leader? No he wasn't. KG was the alpha male of this team clearly, before that it was 'Toine. Pierce as great as he was, he was never a leader until KG came into town.

I agree.  Paul took the shots, but this was KG's team from the moment he arrived here until the day he left.  KG changed the culture and the team took on his persona first and foremost.
I don't recall the rest of the team turning into punks that pick on smaller people like a puff fish.
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Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2013, 01:41:32 PM »

Offline BballTim

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http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/12/5/5178580/george-karl-carmelo-anthony-championships

this guy nails how is different than PP

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12/02/schmeelk-enough-is-enough-its-time-for-carmelo-to-be-a-leader/

leadership, PP had it.  Carmelo has me-dership

Pierce was a leader? No he wasn't. KG was the alpha male of this team clearly, before that it was 'Toine. Pierce as great as he was, he was never a leader until KG came into town.

  There was quite a gap between the Antione trade and the KG trade, and it's hard to make the claim that PP wasn't the leader of the team in those years.

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2013, 06:04:06 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I would like to point to the Knicks Celtics game today.   Did all watch it?   Anyone see Melo lead his team to victory with his all star play.  It was another classic example of the league hyping someone as the latest and greatest.  Melo could not lead a thirsty horse to water.

Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2013, 06:19:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I would like to point to the Knicks Celtics game today.   Did all watch it?   Anyone see Melo lead his team to victory with his all star play.  It was another classic example of the league hyping someone as the latest and greatest.  Melo could not lead a thirsty horse to water.

  He doesn't have to lead the team, just score. (with some defense, rebounding and the like thrown in)


Re: Rondo+ Carmelo+ (insert player here?) on Celtics= Legit contender.
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 06:31:56 PM »

Offline jc3celticsphan

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I would like to point to the Knicks Celtics game today.   Did all watch it?   Anyone see Melo lead his team to victory with his all star play.  It was another classic example of the league hyping someone as the latest and greatest.  Melo could not lead a thirsty horse to water.
lol so far hes lead em to the bottom of the division they should trade him while they still have the chance so they can build a future thats what a smart GM would do... poor knicks