Author Topic: Thoughts  (Read 18310 times)

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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 12:49:46 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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One thing to add is that making the playoffs in the East this year is in all likelihood going to be *very* costly in terms of draft position.

As an example, right now the Celts are the 9th seed in the East. However they also have the 9th best lottery slot because so many West teams have superior records. They'd most likely end up with the 9th or 10th pick (93% chance), but would also have a 6% chance at a top 3 pick.

If the C's just make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they would have the 15th pick for sure with no shot at anything better.

So, that one move up - from 9th to 8th - basically drops you six spots in the draft. To me that's not worth it in a good draft.

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 12:54:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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One thing to add is that making the playoffs in the East this year is in all likelihood going to be *very* costly in terms of draft position.

As an example, right now the Celts are the 9th seed in the East. However they also have the 9th best lottery slot because so many West teams have superior records. They'd most likely end up with the 9th or 10th pick (93% chance), but would also have a 6% chance at a top 3 pick.

If the C's just make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they would have the 15th pick for sure with no shot at anything better.

So, that one move up - from 9th to 8th - basically drops you six spots in the draft. To me that's not worth it in a good draft.


But but . . . winning culture!
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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 01:06:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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One thing to add is that making the playoffs in the East this year is in all likelihood going to be *very* costly in terms of draft position.

As an example, right now the Celts are the 9th seed in the East. However they also have the 9th best lottery slot because so many West teams have superior records. They'd most likely end up with the 9th or 10th pick (93% chance), but would also have a 6% chance at a top 3 pick.

If the C's just make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they would have the 15th pick for sure with no shot at anything better.

So, that one move up - from 9th to 8th - basically drops you six spots in the draft. To me that's not worth it in a good draft.

  That's something to think about if there's 2-3 games left in the season, not 60+.

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 01:07:02 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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One thing to add is that making the playoffs in the East this year is in all likelihood going to be *very* costly in terms of draft position.

As an example, right now the Celts are the 9th seed in the East. However they also have the 9th best lottery slot because so many West teams have superior records. They'd most likely end up with the 9th or 10th pick (93% chance), but would also have a 6% chance at a top 3 pick.

If the C's just make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they would have the 15th pick for sure with no shot at anything better.

So, that one move up - from 9th to 8th - basically drops you six spots in the draft. To me that's not worth it in a good draft.


But but . . . winning culture!

Of course, how could I have ignored that, haha.

I'm also ignoring the well-known fact that the best way to build a winning culture is to get eviscerated by Lebron et al. for four straight games.

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 01:18:23 PM »

Offline djbilly33

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San Antonio tanked it for one year when David Robinson was out for to a season ending injury, they ended up with the #1 pick, getting Duncan and Robinson back the following season and see what happened to them.  Theres no reason why we can't hold back Rondo, limit Green and Sully, play the rest to give an effort but in reality be tanking and land a top 5 pick and come back next year with a good team to go forward with.  Making the playoffs with this current team is not going to be beneficial long term because the team as constructed will be drastically different next year.

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 01:25:42 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Theres no reason why we can't hold back Rondo, limit Green and Sully, play the rest to give an effort but in reality be tanking and land a top 5 pick and come back next year with a good team to go forward with.

So, basically, you're voting for removing Sullinger from the starting lineup?
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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 01:34:26 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Because teams that win 34-49 games are twice as likelyto become a contender within five years as a team with less than 25 wins.

why, though?

My theory is that teams that are bad enough to win 25 or fewer games are in such a talent hole that even if they draft a future All-Star, it takes years to surround that player with a solid supporting cast.  The Celtics this season always struck me as a team that had too much talent to be that bad unless they got hit by injuries, Brad Stevens was a bad coach, or the locker room became a toxic cesspool.


I personally disagree with that writers logic.  I think he uses the wrong window (4 years), the wrong criteria (35-49 wins, 54 wins), I believe he's using overlapping time frames, and he's lumping all drafts together.

1. The 4 year window.  I can't think of one marquee top 3 pick, that left his team after his rookie deal.  LeBron, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Derrick Rose, Kevin Love, those guys all re-signed with their team after their rookie deal.  Howard and Anthony spent 8 years with their original teams, Bosh and LeBron 7, Chris Paul 6.  Kevin Love, a threat to leave, has already spent 6 years in Minnesota,  and it will be 7 if he opts out, or 8 if he takes the player option.  I think he should use a 7 year window.

2.  54 wins.  I think it's too high.  He's saying Cleveland wasn't a contender in any the 5 years after LeBron (despite making the Finals)?  This is a little more arbitrary, so it's not a big deal.  But I think any fan would be ecstatic to win 50-53 wins within 5 years of tanking and getting a top 3 pick.

3.  Overlapping window.  I don't know his data, but to me it looks like this:

2003 Cleveland - Won 17 games in 2003 to get LeBron, never won more than 50 in the next 5.  You don't want to be them.  Instead, you'd be much better off being 2005 Cleveland (42 to 50 wins) or 2008 Cleveland (45 wins to 66 the next year).

2004 Orlando - Won 21 games to get Dwight, then had to wait 4 long years to get to 52 wins.  Why would you be 2004 Orlando when you could be 2007 Orlando who went from 42 wins to the Finals in 2 years.

The question is, how do you get to be in the 34-49 win with a young stud, without tanking first to get there?

I imagine some of those teams he's labeled as mediocre are really teams that tanked previously but were then on the rise (Cleveland, OKC, Orlando, etc.).

4. I feel there's only a few seasons when several teams are really tanking.  1996 is one of the best drafts ever, but teams weren't really tanking for the chance to draft Iverson or Camby (at least the way I remember it).  1985, 1997, 2007, and 2014 are the only drafts I recall being thought to have game changers going in that teams were tanking for (maybe '92 but it was even harder to tank then, and don't remember tanking talks then).  Teams might be bad and rebuild in other years, but they're not really tanking for the chance to draft Olowakandi, Kenyon Martin, Elton Brand, Kwame Brown, Bogut, Bargnani, etc.  There's only a few particular seasons where several teams are thought to be tanking hard, so I don't think you can count them with teams that are just bad ahead of the 2000, 2001, 2005, 2006, etc. drafts.


Not necessarily saying I disagree with the anti-tanking approach, just I have a few questions/concerns/disagreements with the way he came to his conclusions.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:03:38 PM by bdm860 »

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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2013, 02:20:23 PM »

Offline djbilly33

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So, basically, you're voting for removing Sullinger from the starting lineup?
Quote

Yes, limited minutes

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2013, 02:21:21 PM »

Offline djbilly33

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Quote
So, basically, you're voting for removing Sullinger from the starting lineup?

Yes

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2013, 02:25:31 PM »

Offline djbilly33

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If you don't think tanking this season to draft a stud that could help the franchise win starting next year then you're crazy.  Again making the playoffs does nothing for us this year. Limit minutes, trade away the high salaried players and do whatever means necessary to land a top 5 pick. I would much rather have a losing season this year with a shot at being a dark horse next year with a lineup of a healthy rondo, draft pick, Green, Sully and whoever we have at center plus Bass, Olynyk and Bradley off the bench then the team we have right now.

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 02:34:31 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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San Antonio tanked it for one year when David Robinson was out for to a season ending injury, they ended up with the #1 pick, getting Duncan and Robinson back the following season and see what happened to them.  Theres no reason why we can't hold back Rondo, limit Green and Sully, play the rest to give an effort but in reality be tanking and land a top 5 pick and come back next year with a good team to go forward with.  Making the playoffs with this current team is not going to be beneficial long term because the team as constructed will be drastically different next year.



But SA didn't.  The admiral did come back, and then got hurt again that season. 

Re: Thoughts
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 02:39:40 PM »

Offline Section301

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If you don't think tanking this season to draft a stud that could help the franchise win starting next year then you're crazy.  Again making the playoffs does nothing for us this year. Limit minutes, trade away the high salaried players and do whatever means necessary to land a top 5 pick. I would much rather have a losing season this year with a shot at being a dark horse next year with a lineup of a healthy rondo, draft pick, Green, Sully and whoever we have at center plus Bass, Olynyk and Bradley off the bench then the team we have right now.

Again - I'm not sure who you're arguing with.  It feels like you've set yourself as the lone voice of reason that thinks a high pick in this year's draft will help the Celtics.  Um...no duh? 

Nobody's spitting on the idea of getting a high draft pick.  That said, I think that those from both the pro- and anti- tank factions would probably agree that you're greatly oversimplifying the ease with which this can be done.  You do remember 2007, yes?  and 1997?  Even if they throw away the whole darn team there's no guarantee that the ping pong balls don't screw us over again. Even if they do get a stud pick, they're not likely to rise to "dark horse" status next year.  Rebuilds just don't happen that fast.     

Bench Sullinger? Really?
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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2013, 02:41:27 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If you don't think tanking this season to draft a stud that could help the franchise win starting next year then you're crazy.  Again making the playoffs does nothing for us this year. Limit minutes, trade away the high salaried players and do whatever means necessary to land a top 5 pick. I would much rather have a losing season this year with a shot at being a dark horse next year with a lineup of a healthy rondo, draft pick, Green, Sully and whoever we have at center plus Bass, Olynyk and Bradley off the bench then the team we have right now.

If the Celtics make the playoffs this season, I think it would make the Celtics a dark horse for next season because it provides a firm foundation for Ainge to make moves to improve the team.  What those moves are, I am not sure, but there are going to be teams which will be looking to trade good players because they are changing the direction of their franchise.
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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2013, 02:51:30 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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We had people complaining about paying to see the team struggle against mediocre teams when we were winning 50+ games a season.

I'd posit that perhaps people complained about that precisely because the team was winning 50+ games a season.  When you know your team is built to win now, and the window for competing is short because your best players are in their early to mid 30s, every loss to a mediocre team seems like a wasted opportunity. 

I don't think many people have any illusions about the team this season -- this is a bridge year.  This group is going to take one step forward, two steps back.  Even those who think this team can win 30-40 games and make the playoffs can probably agree with that.  So it's hard to complain when the team loses to mediocre opponents because our team is mediocre, and never meant to be anything better than mediocre.

I agree that if the team is mediocre season after season with no clear plan in place to get better, then people will tune out.  But I think fans in Boston are pretty smart, despite what Mike Felger will tell you.  What matters is that in the long run, the team takes two steps forward for every step back.

So far, the team appears to have a plan in place to get better over the next few years, and so I see no reason to complain about the fact that the team this year is going to lose far more often than they will win.  I believe that the majority of Celtics fans feel similarly.

1) Half the people on this blog don't think of things the way you describe - hence all the debates on this.

2) What makes you really think that 'real' people paying out hundreds to go see the games live would think the way you assert?

I know I sure as heck don't think that way.  I want the team to put a competitive, entertaining product on the floor when I fork out that money.  And I do go to games.

I disagree completely with the contention that it is necessary to be 'really really bad' in order to become a contender.   So why would I be 'okay' with paying for a purposely sub-par product?

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Re: Thoughts
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2013, 03:38:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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We had people complaining about paying to see the team struggle against mediocre teams when we were winning 50+ games a season.

I'd posit that perhaps people complained about that precisely because the team was winning 50+ games a season.  When you know your team is built to win now, and the window for competing is short because your best players are in their early to mid 30s, every loss to a mediocre team seems like a wasted opportunity. 

I don't think many people have any illusions about the team this season -- this is a bridge year.  This group is going to take one step forward, two steps back.  Even those who think this team can win 30-40 games and make the playoffs can probably agree with that.  So it's hard to complain when the team loses to mediocre opponents because our team is mediocre, and never meant to be anything better than mediocre.

I agree that if the team is mediocre season after season with no clear plan in place to get better, then people will tune out.  But I think fans in Boston are pretty smart, despite what Mike Felger will tell you.  What matters is that in the long run, the team takes two steps forward for every step back.

  First of all, you missed my point. It's not about having the same expectations as when the Celts were contending, it's about paying big money to attend games when the team isn't making an effort to be competitive. I'd suspect it's a bigger issue for teams than you realize.

  People here keep making the statement that it's better to get a high draft pick and get better prospects than it is to try and sneak into the playoffs and get drummed if you're trying to build a winning team. That's obviously true. In fact, it's so obviously true that it's impossible to imagine that any team in the league is unaware that their chances of improving aren't greatly improved by tanking. You'd expect to see a minimum of 10-12 teams vying for the first pick in the draft every year, but you don't. Why not? Because the teams will all end up with Atlanta-like fan bases. 

So far, the team appears to have a plan in place to get better over the next few years, and so I see no reason to complain about the fact that the team this year is going to lose far more often than they will win.  I believe that the majority of Celtics fans feel similarly.

  How many games the team will lose is far from a given. Right now you'd have to say they're at least as likely to make the playoffs as finish near enough to the bottom of the league to follow that apparent plan.