Would the Cs Be WORSE With Pierce and Garnett?

[PhoSita]

Couldn't help asking myself this question, seeing how badly the Nets are doing so far this year.

Imagine that the trades with the Nets and the Clippers never happened.

Imagine Doc Rivers is still the head coach, his heart only half in it because he knows this team can't win.

Imagine Jason Terry is still playing 25+ minutes a night with a leprechaun tattooed to his calf. 

Imagine Paul Pierce is still carrying way too much of an offensive load, taking shots away from Sullinger and Green.  Then he breaks his hand and we don't have a backup SF.

Imagine Garnett is still barking his way at the back of the defense, only his legs are gone so he has no jumpshot, and he's taking minutes away from guys who are less experienced and who will never be truly great, but who are simply better players now because they have the energy to play big minutes, hit shots consistently, and keep pace with younger opponents.


It's not a stretch, I think, to imagine that this team might actually have a worse record right now, especially when you consider the brutal November schedule.

[incoherent]

I dont know...I know they suck with the Nets but I'm not sold on this premise.

If we don't have Humphries/Wallace/Bogans/Brooks then does our team really change that much?

[Interceptor]

Urgh, do we have to take Doc back for the hypothetical? I'd like to think that Stevens is more flexible with rotations and playing time.

[PhoSita]

Urgh, do we have to take Doc back for the hypothetical? I'd like to think that Stevens is more flexible with rotations and playing time.

I think so, yes, because it's my assumption that Doc chose to 'leave' to the Clippers once it was communicated to him that Danny's plan was to move Pierce and Garnett.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Couldn't help asking myself this question, seeing how badly the Nets are doing so far this year.

Imagine that the trades with the Nets and the Clippers never happened.

Imagine Doc Rivers is still the head coach, his heart only half in it because he knows this team can't win.

Imagine Jason Terry is still playing 25+ minutes a night with a leprechaun tattooed to his calf. 

Imagine Paul Pierce is still carrying way too much of an offensive load, taking shots away from Sullinger and Green.  Then he breaks his hand and we don't have a backup SF.

Imagine Garnett is still barking his way at the back of the defense, only his legs are gone so he has no jumpshot, and he's taking minutes away from guys who are less experienced and who will never be truly great, but who are simply better players now because they have the energy to play big minutes, hit shots consistently, and keep pace with younger opponents.


It's not a stretch, I think, to imagine that this team might actually have a worse record right now, especially when you consider the brutal November schedule.

KG would still be a major contributor COMING OFF THE BENCH. he just cannot play long minutes now due to age and his legs.

[gpap]

Tough to say.

I think the fact that KG and especially Pierce probably never wanted to be dealt from Boston to Brooklyn also plays a big variable in answering this question.

Furthermore, I think the Nets hiring Kidd as the coach couldn't have been a worse decision.

I mean back in 2000-2005, Pierce with the Celtics and Kidd while playing for New Jersey were equal when it came to talent (though I might give Kidd a slight edge cause he made it to the finals in 2002.)

And now all of a sudden, Kidd is coaching Pierce....

Bad dynamic.

[PhoSita]

Couldn't help asking myself this question, seeing how badly the Nets are doing so far this year.

Imagine that the trades with the Nets and the Clippers never happened.

Imagine Doc Rivers is still the head coach, his heart only half in it because he knows this team can't win.

Imagine Jason Terry is still playing 25+ minutes a night with a leprechaun tattooed to his calf. 

Imagine Paul Pierce is still carrying way too much of an offensive load, taking shots away from Sullinger and Green.  Then he breaks his hand and we don't have a backup SF.

Imagine Garnett is still barking his way at the back of the defense, only his legs are gone so he has no jumpshot, and he's taking minutes away from guys who are less experienced and who will never be truly great, but who are simply better players now because they have the energy to play big minutes, hit shots consistently, and keep pace with younger opponents.


It's not a stretch, I think, to imagine that this team might actually have a worse record right now, especially when you consider the brutal November schedule.

KG would still be a major contributor COMING OFF THE BENCH. he just cannot play long minutes now due to age and his legs.

With Doc coaching this team, I sincerely doubt KG would ever come off the bench.  Same with Pierce.

[Interceptor]

I think so, yes, because it's my assumption that Doc chose to 'leave' to the Clippers once it was communicated to him that Danny's plan was to move Pierce and Garnett.

I think that the "run it back" team could possibly be worse, but probably wouldn't be. They could have beaten some of those teams that we shouldn't have lost to. No better than .500, though; just look at last year. Biggest difference this time would be KO and a returned year-older Sully. We're missing Rondo, but last year's team proved that they could win without him.

I think that Stevens with the old crew is a more interesting hypothetical, though. Doc has hemmed and hawed every year, not just this past one.

[gpap]

Another thing to keep in mind too is if Pierce and KG are back, then this team looks dramatically different on paper.

Obviously the Brooklyn deal doesn't happen and instead of going with guys like Crawford, Faverani, Pressy and Olynyk in key spots, Ainge likely lands a couple veteran players during the summer to help Pierce/KG go for another playoff run.

It would basically be another veteran team with probably better balance instead of the young team we have now.

[PhoSita]

Another thing to keep in mind too is if Pierce and KG are back, then this team looks dramatically different on paper.

Obviously the Brooklyn deal doesn't happen and instead of going with guys like Crawford, Faverani, Pressy and Olynyk in key spots, Ainge likely lands a couple veteran players during the summer to help Pierce/KG go for another playoff run.

It would basically be another veteran team with probably better balance instead of the young team we have now.

That sounds nice, but this team would have had basically zero space to operate under the luxury tax.  So maybe they could add one player for ~3 million, but only if they were willing to pay the tax.

Also recall that Danny worked his magic adding "veteran talent" in the summer of 2012; Terry and Lee didn't really provide the expected boost.


I imagine that Crawford, Faverani, Olynyk, and Pressey would actually be precisely the guys the Celtics would be relying on.

[LooseCannon]

It's hard to answer this question without imagining what roster moves are made.

Imagine that Ainge still moves up to draft Olynyk, then parlays Utah's love for the guy into a sign-and-trade: Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, the rights to Kelly Olynyk, and a top 12-protected 2015 pick for Paul Millsap.  Elton Brand signs for the mini-MLE with the idea that Doc would play him as a smallball center sometimes when Garnett rests.  Beno Udrih signs for the league minimum.

The roster is then:

Garnett, Millsap, Sullinger, Brand, Melo
Pierce, Green
Rondo, Bradley, Lee, Udrih, Crawford

Fill out the roster with guys like DeShawn Sims, Phil Pressey, and Tim Ohlbrecht.

[oldtype]

I don't know how good we'd be relatively but this is definitely more fun.

[PhoSita]

I don't know how good we'd be relatively but this is definitely more fun.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

[D.o.s.]

It's hard to answer this question without imagining what roster moves are made.

Agreed, but to my mind the big roster moves are before the season starts.

If the Clippers and Nets trades never happen;

-Doc Rivers and the Celtics brass agree to a buyout with a one-year non-compete clause. Doc bolts for ESPN or TNT and spends the season as a guest/infrequent commentator before possibly becoming the head coach of a non-Celtic team at the advent of the 2014/2015 season.

-KG retires during the off-season. If Pierce spent three hours convincing KG to put off retiring to play on a roster as stacked as the Nets looked, there's no way our team is enticing him back into the fold.

-Pierce begins the season as a starter, breaks his hand, the "should Pierce come off the bench" talk happens again, only this time he's actually cosigned to 18 minutes off the bench. He ends up retiring at the end of the year.

-Rondo returns in early January, they win enough games against the tanking teams to make the 7th or 6th seed, only to be bounced in the first round.

[Kane3387]

Don't think so. The east would still be bad. I don't see how exchanging kg and pierce for Wallace and humphries hurts us. I think the change of scenery, coaching, and lack of chemistry has really hurt them.

As crazy as it sounds, I believe the only reason we might be worse is Doc's coaching and lack of trust in guys versus Steven's demeanor and style.

The young coach is very impressive for a rookie with no NBA experience.