We Only have three "Real" NBA Players on this team.

[Fafnir]

Garcia more productive?

If you want to bag on Jeff Green you can find ways to do so, but Garcia. My mind is boogled.

Especially when he was a one dimensional low usage 3 point shooter last year.

[Who]

ATL   K.Korver
BKN   P.Pierce
BOS   J.Green
CHA   M.Kidd-Gilchrist
CHI   L.Deng
CLE     A.Gee
DAL   S.Marion
DEN   D.Gallinari
DET   Josh Smith
GSW   H.Barnes
HOU   C.Parsons
IND   P.George
LAC   J.Dudley
LAL   Shawne Williams
MEM   T.Prince
MIA   L.James
MIL    C.Butler
MIN   Derrick Williams
NOH   Al Farouq Aminu
NYK   C.Anthony
OKC   K.Durant
ORL   Moe Harkless
PHI   Evan Turner
PHO    Marcus Morris
POR   N.Batum
SAC   Mbah a Moute
SAS   K.Leonard
TOR   R.Gay
UTA   R.Jefferson
WAS   M.Webster

That is a list of 30 teams with their starting SF listed. So to decide if J.Green is an average starting SF or not, where does Jeff Green rank on the list?

I have Jeff Green ranked middle of the pack. I go back and forth between 11th to 16th (in a mix with C.Parsons, H.Barnes, T.Prince, J.Smith, S.Marion). I rate Jeff Green somewhere within that range.

Among the guys you list, the only one I'd prefer Green over is Tayshaun, and that's because Tay is kinda washed up at this point.


Also, simply listing the starting SFs for all the other teams in the league overlooks the fact that there may be some SFs not starting who are nonetheless better than Green.

Francisco Garcia in Houston, for example, is more productive and efficient, and he can play either wing position.  The Clippers have both Jared Dudley and Matt Barnes.  One of them won't be starting; the one who isn't is nonetheless a better player than Jeff, in my opinion.  Wilson Chandler in Denver doesn't start at SF but he's a better version of Jeff.

Bench SFs are another matter. You can make a second list of bench SFs only and see where Jeff Green ranks there (I have him top 5, probably top 3). And/or a third list of starters + bench SFs and see where Jeff Green ranks on that list (clearly, I have him somewhere in the teens). All three types of lists have value.

This question was how Jeff Green compares to starting SFs -- whether J.Green is an average, or better, or worse starting SF -- so determine that we compare him to starting SFs hence they are the only SFs listed here.

Where would you rank Jeff Green amongst those 30 starting SFs?

[kozlodoev]

So, let's get this straight.

Someone would rather have the following guys over Jeff Green: Aminu, Gee, Harkless, Dudley, Butler (if you think Prince is washed out, you should probably consider Butler dead), Jefferson (see Butler comment), Webster, Mbah a Moute, Morris, Marion, Turner, and Korver?

This can only possibly be based on some subjective dislike for Green, and not on any objective set of skills those players possess.

[PhoSita]

This question was how Jeff Green compares to starting SFs -- whether J.Green is an average, or better, or worse starting SF -- so determine that we compare him to starting SFs hence they are the only SFs listed here.

Where would you rank Jeff Green amongst those 30 starting SFs?

See, I'm rejecting the distinction.  I'm looking at wing players and examining what the numbers so about how useful they are to their teams.  Compared to all wing players who played a significant number of minutes last year in that light, Green does not do well.

There are arguments to be made about the shortcomings of statistics in adequately capturing Green's worth, or inflating the worth of other players, to be sure.  But I have to say that when I consider what Green brings to the table compared to a lot of these other wing players, it's hard to justify the amount of attention he gets, for the reasons I've already stated (he doesn't do anything especially well; he doesn't make his team better; the one thing he does is score and he doesn't do it with efficiency or consistently).

[PhoSita]

Garcia more productive?

If you want to bag on Jeff Green you can find ways to do so, but Garcia. My mind is boogled.

Especially when he was a one dimensional low usage 3 point shooter last year.

I was mainly thinking of Garcia's impact in Houston in the latter part of last year.  He's looking like a great addition for them.  A high quality catch and shoot player who also rebounds fair well for a guard and generally is a poised veteran.

Admittedly, it's a small sample size -- the last two or three years before that he'd been languishing a bit on that awful Kings team.

[PhoSita]

So, let's get this straight.

Someone would rather have the following guys over Jeff Green: Aminu, Gee, Harkless, Dudley, Butler (if you think Prince is washed out, you should probably consider Butler dead), Jefferson (see Butler comment), Webster, Mbah a Moute, Morris, Marion, Turner, and Korver?

This can only possibly be based on some subjective dislike for Green, and not on any objective set of skills those players possess.

Dudley, Jimmy Butler, Webster, Mbah a Moute (especially -- love his game), Marion, and Korver, sure.  Those guys are all useful role players who have clearly defined skills and don't need to play a lot of minutes to be productive, or have a large role in an offense.

Turner I think has more upside than Green because he's really just a few ticks of efficiency away from being a nice player.  He can create for others and he's a very nice rebounder for his size, plus he's a solid defender.  He's just a really inefficient shooter / finisher.

Harkless will probably end up being more valuable because of defense / rebounding, but right now he's too raw.  I don't particularly care for Aminu, and I agree with you that Caron Butler is washed up.

[Fan from VT]

So, let's get this straight.

Someone would rather have the following guys over Jeff Green: Aminu, Gee, Harkless, Dudley, Butler (if you think Prince is washed out, you should probably consider Butler dead), Jefferson (see Butler comment), Webster, Mbah a Moute, Morris, Marion, Turner, and Korver?

This can only possibly be based on some subjective dislike for Green, and not on any objective set of skills those players possess.

Before you scoff, Harkless is 20 and almost at Green's level on a rookie deal. Mbah a moute has shortcomings, but is all-nba level defense at 1/2 green's cost. Marion still brings more than green at less money. Turner I'm not a huge fan of, but possibly a wash (more upside, currently cheaper). Dudley gives you what green does at much less money and fits great with many teams. Korver vs Green is very team dependent. So it's not much of a scoffer.

[crimson_stallion]

So, let's get this straight.

Someone would rather have the following guys over Jeff Green: Aminu, Gee, Harkless, Dudley, Butler (if you think Prince is washed out, you should probably consider Butler dead), Jefferson (see Butler comment), Webster, Mbah a Moute, Morris, Marion, Turner, and Korver?

This can only possibly be based on some subjective dislike for Green, and not on any objective set of skills those players possess.

Before you scoff, Harkless is 20 and almost at Green's level on a rookie deal. Mbah a moute has shortcomings, but is all-nba level defense at 1/2 green's cost. Marion still brings more than green at less money. Turner I'm not a huge fan of, but possibly a wash (more upside, currently cheaper). Dudley gives you what green does at much less money and fits great with many teams. Korver vs Green is very team dependent. So it's not much of a scoffer.

Hilarious comments.

You do realise that since Green became a starter last season he averaged 20 PPG on >50% FG and >50% 3PT? This was over a stretch of about 15-20 games, including the playoffs.

When was the last time you saw anybody on that list average 20 PPG, 50%  FG and 50% 3PT over a 15-20 game stretch?  The only guy there with any chance of that isd probably dudley, and still not likely.

The people on this board are so disloyal it's hilarious.  When Green was playing well in last year's preseason everybody was in love and riding his bandwagon.  Then season starts and he struggled, everybody was bagging him out claiming he was one of the worst SF's in the NBA, and that he has the worst contract in the league.  Then end of the season when he played great, everyone was on the "Green for MVP" bandwagon.  Now he's struggling in some meaningless preseason games and everybody is hating again.

Every player goes through funks.  Happened to Ray Allen a few seasons back where for a stretch of about 15 games he could not buy a shot. 

Jeff has proven last season that when he is given a real opportunity with proper starters minutes, he can be absolutely dominant and can be the best scorer on the court at times as well as an elite one-on-one defender.  Through the end of the season and the entire playoffs he was the best player on this team.  In the preseason on a per-36 minute basis he is averaging 14 PPG - that's not far off what Wallace is averaging (16 PPG per 36).  Green is struggling on 33% shooting, but Wallace (40%) hasn't shot much better, neither has Sully (who people are also praising to the heavens).  Jeff Green is not going to shoot 33% for the season - he's never shot below about 44% for a season.  His shots will start going in, and when they do his scoring will go back up and everyone will be on his bandwagon again.

Give the guy a break.

[Interceptor]

The people on this board are so disloyal it's hilarious.

Hey, watch where you're aiming that thing, bro. I've been on the Jeff Green bandwagon since The Trade™ v1.0, which is looking better every day. I've defended his rough spots, and will continue to do so unless he gets traded to another team and I don't have to care anymore. He's a heck of a basketball player, and hopefully has not yet seen his best days here.

This seems like a good time to state for the record that I am also on the AB, Hump, Wallace, Sullinger (where I am driving the bus), and Olynyk bandwagons as well.

[PhoSita]

The people on this board are so disloyal it's hilarious.

It doesn't have anything to do with loyalty or lackthereof.

Indeed, I like Green.  He seems like a good person, and I know he's worked really hard to come back from his injury.  I thought trading for him was a worthwhile gamble considering the team's needs at that time.  Having an inconsistent guy who occasionally could help win you a game with a big offensive performance was a useful weapon to have, and we didn't need to rely on him too much for game-to-game production, even though we inevitably began to wish that we could.

Anyways, all I've been trying to say is that if you want to argue that Green is something more than a mediocre player, you have to appeal to something other than objective statistics or production over a large sample size.  You have to point to individual plays where he made use of his athleticism to get by defenders and attack the rim in an aesthetically pleasing way, or you have to talk about individual games or a handful of games where he played aggressively and his shot was falling and he scored a lot of points.  Even when Green does well, though, he almost never brings much more to the table than points, aside from the occasional steal or block.

Green is a crowd pleaser, and it's easy to see why.  But compared to other players at his position it's hard to justify his role or his pay. 

I'd prefer a guy who has fewer 20 point games but who rebounds, defends, creates for others a bit, hits plenty of corner threes, and costs about third as much; a guy who can do all of those things without needing a large role or a lot of minutes.  I'd even take a guy who only does one or two of those things, but does it really, really well.

[Eja117]

  Gotta love a thread claiming that players in their 20s who have started many games (even on playoff teams) aren't "real" nba players.

I rankled at that a bit, too, but in context it's clear the OP meant "NBA starters."

  What he really meant was "average or better nba starters",  unless you can think of a reason someone who's started regularly in 4 of his 5 seasons doesn't qualify as an "NBA starter".

Claiming that Jeff Green isn't an average NBA starter, and Sullinger is constitutes either not knowing the NBA landscape, or intentional trolling.

Well it's just that Jeffy is allergic to rebounds and effort, whereas Sully wants every rebound he ever saw....

  I don't think Green's really allergic to effort. You rarely if ever see that in good defenders.

Avery Bradley is a good defender. Avery Bradley plays with effort. Green is here to get a check

  We've had a lot of lazy players go through Boston, Green isn't really among them.

I'd agree. In Green's (and similar players') case, we ascribe the term "lazy" because it's easier than acknowledging he's just "not that great" and that "we were really wrong judging his talent."

  Possibly, although most expectations of Green's talent weren't centered around his rebounding. His overall rebounding rate last year was fairly close to that of players like Batum, Prince, Webster, Budinger, Artest and Parsons. Not necessarily what you'd hope for, not average for his position, but it's not the biggest crisis you'll come across either.

Well wait a second.....Budinger was hurt a lot so let's not do him.  Tayshaun averaged more rebs (4.2 vs 3.9) despite being 33 years old and a lot skinnier and being traded half way through the year.

Lets look at Batum.....an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter.....5.6 rebs vs 3.9, but that's not all folks. We have 4.9 assists vs 1.6.  1.2 steals vs .7 

Parsons was 5.3 rebs and 3.5 assists

Martell was the same amount of rebs despite being 2 inches shorter and 5 lbs lighter but shot the ball far better

These guys played more minutes so I give them that.  It could be for a reason.  Green has never averaged more than 6.7 in a year (his second year).

Oh right Budinger was hurt...I forgot Jeff Green only had heart surgery.

But Jeff was a bad rebounder even before that. Plus he was cleared to play and Bud wasn't. So he's a year removed from heart surgery. What's the excuse now? It's preseason? That's how we're going to approach the first preseason with a new coach? In the mean time are we all going to give a pass to Oden or Bynum because they were hurt? Having been hurt isn't a good thing. You aren't just as good as other players because you were hurt. Also as much as I may not like other guys like Garcia over Jeff at least Garcia isn't getting paid $9mill. You get paid like that then you should put in effort like that. Is Jeff putting in $9mill of effort? $9mill of performance? $9mill of leadership?

[mmmmm]

The point here is that Green is an extremely replaceable player.

Which Jeff Green?

The one in the earlier part of the season, fresh off a full season away from the game after open heart surgery who averaged just 24.6 mpg, shot just 44.3% FG%, 34.0% 3PT% and had per-36 rates of 15.1 pts, 1.5 assists & 4.8 rebounds (pre-all star break numbers)?

Or the one later in the season who played 33.3 mpg, shot 49.3% FG%, 43.9% 3PT% and had per-36 rates of 18.4 pts, 2.9 assists & 5.4 rebounds (post-all star break)?

I'm going to suggest that the latter guy is a bit harder to replace.

There were 20 players last year who averaged 18 pts, 2 assists & 5 rebounds per 36 who played at least 25 mpg.

Only 6 of them were small forwards.   You can probably guess all their names.

Now, you can choose to think that it's the pre-AS break Jeff Green that we have to replace if you believe that he is going to struggle with his endurance and timing going forward to the same extent that he clearly and obviously did last Fall.   'Seems like a bit of a wild, unfounded presumption though.

[Fan from VT]

So, let's get this straight.

Someone would rather have the following guys over Jeff Green: Aminu, Gee, Harkless, Dudley, Butler (if you think Prince is washed out, you should probably consider Butler dead), Jefferson (see Butler comment), Webster, Mbah a Moute, Morris, Marion, Turner, and Korver?

This can only possibly be based on some subjective dislike for Green, and not on any objective set of skills those players possess.

Before you scoff, Harkless is 20 and almost at Green's level on a rookie deal. Mbah a moute has shortcomings, but is all-nba level defense at 1/2 green's cost. Marion still brings more than green at less money. Turner I'm not a huge fan of, but possibly a wash (more upside, currently cheaper). Dudley gives you what green does at much less money and fits great with many teams. Korver vs Green is very team dependent. So it's not much of a scoffer.

Hilarious comments.

You do realise that since Green became a starter last season he averaged 20 PPG on >50% FG and >50% 3PT? This was over a stretch of about 15-20 games, including the playoffs.

When was the last time you saw anybody on that list average 20 PPG, 50%  FG and 50% 3PT over a 15-20 game stretch?  The only guy there with any chance of that isd probably dudley, and still not likely.

The people on this board are so disloyal it's hilarious.  When Green was playing well in last year's preseason everybody was in love and riding his bandwagon.  Then season starts and he struggled, everybody was bagging him out claiming he was one of the worst SF's in the NBA, and that he has the worst contract in the league.  Then end of the season when he played great, everyone was on the "Green for MVP" bandwagon.  Now he's struggling in some meaningless preseason games and everybody is hating again.

Every player goes through funks.  Happened to Ray Allen a few seasons back where for a stretch of about 15 games he could not buy a shot. 

Jeff has proven last season that when he is given a real opportunity with proper starters minutes, he can be absolutely dominant and can be the best scorer on the court at times as well as an elite one-on-one defender.  Through the end of the season and the entire playoffs he was the best player on this team.  In the preseason on a per-36 minute basis he is averaging 14 PPG - that's not far off what Wallace is averaging (16 PPG per 36).  Green is struggling on 33% shooting, but Wallace (40%) hasn't shot much better, neither has Sully (who people are also praising to the heavens).  Jeff Green is not going to shoot 33% for the season - he's never shot below about 44% for a season.  His shots will start going in, and when they do his scoring will go back up and everyone will be on his bandwagon again.

Give the guy a break.

I want to be wrong, because then that means the C's have a better player.

Green has had ~20 game stretches like that before.

Unfortunately for Green and his teams, the season is 82 games long and all games count.

[mmmmm]

I want to be wrong, because then that means the C's have a better player.

Green has had ~20 game stretches like that before.

Unfortunately for Green and his teams, the season is 82 games long and all games count.

Your comments suggest you think that it is Green's second half performance that is 'an outlier' and thus not representative of who he is.   That's fair.

I would suggest flipping it around:  Do you think the first half of last year is representative of something we will see from Green going forward?   As far as I can tell, he's never had a stretch in his career as bad as last Fall, when it comes to production.   If anything, THAT stretch looks much more like an outlier.

Folks shouldn't aggregate all of last year into one bundle and suggest that that is what we can expect from Jeff Green unless they expect him to reproduce the way he played coming off a missed season, post-heart-surgery.

[Roy H.]

I would suggest flipping it around:  Do you think the first half of last year is representative of something we will see from Green going forward?   As far as I can tell, he's never had a stretch in his career as bad as last Fall, when it comes to production.   If anything, THAT stretch looks much more like an outlier.

For whatever it's worth, I wouldn't call it an outlier.  Rather, Green was producing almost exactly at his career averages, at least in terms of scoring per minute and his efficiency / shooting.  He just wasn't getting as many minutes, so his production looks down in comparison.

Prior to the All-star game, he averaged something like 15.0 points per 36 minutes, shooting 44.3% FG%, 34.0% 3PT%, .540 TS%.  When you look at his career, that' pretty much who Green is, and he's been remarkably consistent in that regard.  The latter half of last year was the aberration, and let's hope it's a precursor of things to come.