Sullinger and Olynyk duo

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They can't just be good players, or play well together.  one of the duo needs to develop into a go-to allstar.  We need one, in any case, and everyone is trade bait unless they have that potential right now.

I'd say there is a chance that one or both gets at least one allstar nod in their career (a la Danny Ainge, Doc Rivers), but there is quite a lot to watch this year for sure, and that pair is surely one of them.

If they made Wallace look so good, could their styles of play make Jeff Green look like what we want him to be as well?

You dont necessarily need both or one to make the all star game. Think about oakly and mason for nyn. Were they ever all stars? Or deserving all stars. But both gave u a chance to win, even without ewing out at times bc of injury

Our roster just lacks strength at the top.  I don't thing we get past the 2nd round with Rondo and a bunch of "solid starters."

We have depth in terms of number of solid rotation guys and even starter-level players, but we're still short at the top end.

Those two look like they have the highest ceilings of the young corps.  Their developing chemistry will be pretty awesome to see.  If we get a top-level SG and keep them, then they perhaps don't need to be stars, but it sure would help.

I agree. We need one or two deadly shooter on the team to work with these guys. Can you imagine a mouse and cat game of oly to sully to an open sharpshooter??

Nightmare to handle

I'm imagining clearing a side for them to work a 2-man game together.  I'm dreaming Bird-McHale level chemistry but possibly that quick ball movement style of play.

Okay, never mind...Rondo and the two of them all moving and moving without the ball.

Okay, never mind...Rondo, an integrated JGreen, and Sully and KO all running a Princeton offense.  Throw in a 3 and D guy and good backups and we have a fun and good team. 

We haven't had both at the same time in a while.  Maybe the healthy Shaq games.

[mmmmm]

Sullinger will break all sorts of records for having his inside shots stuffed this season.

Is that the only thing you care about?? He was the best player of the game for the celts

He looked more mobile also which is a relief.

Sully has got to be dannys biggest steal of the draft yet

No, he wasn't. Gerald Wallace was the best player in the game for the Celtics, which is somewhat unfortunate, given that he's slated for the bench, and will be out the door sooner rather than later.

And yes, given the expectations placed on Sullinger, I care a lot about his limited ability to finish against bigger people. So should you.

Umm... I thought Wallace played well, but no way.

In 26+ minutes, Wallace scored 16, grabbed 2 rebounds, dished 4 assists and grabbed 1 steal.   He was +2 plus/minus.

In under 20 minutes, Sully scored 14, grabbed 6 rebounds, dished 4 assists.  He was +9.

Both in aggregate and especially in per-minute, Sully's impact on the game was bigger.   He was easily the strongest big man on the court and easily our best player in this particular game.

Sully was blocked exactly once.   Do you know who else was blocked?  The much 'longer' Amir Johnson, Jonas Valanciunas and Tyler Hansborough.  All got their shots blocked.

[LarBrd33]

Sullinger will break all sorts of records for having his inside shots stuffed this season.

Is that the only thing you care about?? He was the best player of the game for the celts

He looked more mobile also which is a relief.

Sully has got to be dannys biggest steal of the draft yet

as much as i like rondo, Sullinger will prove to be the bigger steal.

Wowzers.  Really?  WHen Rondo was in his prime he was a 4 time all-star, 2 time assist leader and 1 time All-Defense 1st team.

I don't expect Sully to ever make an allstar team.  He'll be a solid player though.  Some day he could be a good player off the bench for a contender somewhere.  He reminds me of Ryan Gomes.

This is the best LB33 quote of all-time. A Rondo praise, at first glance a love-letter. But read it again, 'was in his prime', implying that he will never again be in his prime.

This is just choice cut grade A Celticsblog forum commenting right there. Had me giggling.

LB33's commentary doesn't always stoop / rise to the level of actual trollery, but even when it does, he spouts it with such smooth, slightly-smirking aplomb that it's actually impressive.  An art form, really.

Sometimes I wonder if he believes any of what he's posting, just because I feel like maybe it's performance art and he's really making fun of the skeptics / pessimists / realists.

[mmmmm]

Sully is still very young, but yes, he has physical limitations for his position.

I think his potential is at the Paul Milsap level. With just the right complementary, better players, he could be the number 3 on a championship, though more likely not better than a fourth-best on such a team. I'll be very interested to see what Stevens can do with JS and KO to develop them as a defensive unit this year, since that is their area of weakness as a pair.

I do not get the love for Paul Milsap.  He's a perfectly average big man.  He's basically a slightly better rebounding version of Bass, except he scores a little more inside and has no outside jump shot.

Sully is already a better player, imo, than Milsap and is going to be way more valuable (assuming his back problems are mitigated).

[LarBrd33]

Sullinger will break all sorts of records for having his inside shots stuffed this season.

Is that the only thing you care about?? He was the best player of the game for the celts

He looked more mobile also which is a relief.

Sully has got to be dannys biggest steal of the draft yet

as much as i like rondo, Sullinger will prove to be the bigger steal.

Wowzers.  Really?  WHen Rondo was in his prime he was a 4 time all-star, 2 time assist leader and 1 time All-Defense 1st team.

I don't expect Sully to ever make an allstar team.  He'll be a solid player though.  Some day he could be a good player off the bench for a contender somewhere.  He reminds me of Ryan Gomes.

For me , even though its not fair to say, Rondo has never been by himself (not surrounded by future HOF) yet to prove he is one of the best/franchise calibre player.  Last year we saw a small glimpse of what "Rondos" team can do, and honestly it did avg to not so great (considering the horrible losing streak).

Sullinger imo can provide more impact on both ends of the court. He can do so many things, just think about it.
On the offensive end, he is passing, grabbing offensive rebounds, setting ridiculous picks, scoring, shooting. On the defensive end, it seems like its night and day difference when he is on and off the court. But its not even about stats, its about impact/influence.

Sullinger will likely never beat Rondo in terms of stats, triple doubles etc. Not many will.  But i predict he will be more of a impact/influence for the team

... Are you serious?











You can't be serious.



Not to harp, but there's absolutely no way you can really believe this.

Take off your rondo goggles and you may understand my points.

How many years did doc cuddle rondo?  How many years of in your ear instructions? Sullinger hasnt need any of that and forced his way into the starting lineup last year.  Sullinger rate of progression is faster at this pt.

No but seriously we haven't seen squat from Sully to really suggest he'll be "better than Rondo". 

He played 45 games last year and averaged 6 points and 6 rebounds in 20 minutes.  He only started 5 games.

He was also playing a team completely depleted of bigs.  Brandon Bass was brought in here to be our 5th big man off the bench... basically replacing Glen Davis.  Thanks to injuries, retirements, dudes staying in Europe, etc... he somehow was our starting big by default.   There were minutes to be had.

Rondo on the other hand, played 78 games as a rookie and started 25.  This was despite the fact that we had made a rather controversial decision to trade our top lotto pick for Sebastian Telfair and there was pressure to pump minutes into Telfair... When Rondo showed up he was 3rd in the PG depth chart behind Telfair and Delonte West (who had played rather well).  And yet... he started 25 of those games and did enough that Danny Ainge tried really hard not to trade him the following offseason.

That said,  Sully's rookie stats were probably slightly more impressive than Rondo's rookie stats.  But pulling down rebounds and scoring inside is easier than trying to run an offense.  Additionally, Sully had a better College career than Rondo.  I'm still not sold on Sully, but that's mainly because I haven't seen him play enough.  I admittedly avoided most of the games during last year's sitting duck craptastic season.  From what I've seen, I just see him as a smarter Glen Davis or a Ryan Gomes type.  He doesn't seem to have the size or athleticism to be a star in this league.  It's hard for me to get sold on him... it just seems like one of a long line of undersized big men that the fans here lose their minds over.  All you have to do is pull down 10 rebounds in a game and suddenly you're the next Barkley.  Whether it's Eric WIlliams, Brandon Hunter, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe, Chris Mihm, Mark Blount, Glen Davis... I've seen Celtics fans overreact to "big performances" by big men over and over and over again.  You need only to find the "Fab Melo" thread after his big Children's League game to see what I'm talking about.  Dude blocks 80 shots while playing with 4 foot tall 12 year olds and suddenly he's the next Hakeem. 

And I basically agree with triboy's point.  Rondo always had potential, but I don't think Rondo would have peaked as a Top 10 PG if it hadn't been for a perfect storm of circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".  ROndo came in as a 3rd string and had to work hard to earn his place.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  His coach was a former all-star PG.  His second season he's thrusted into a winning culture with 3 jedi master hall-of-famers carrying the team to a title and imparting endless wisdom on the young padawan.  The team signs a hall-of-fame backup (Sam Cassell) to impart more wisdom.  Later the team brings in another former all-star for Rondo to spar with in practice (Marbury).  He had multiple seasons to learn from Ray, KG and Pierce who were all vastly different in their approach to greatness.  KG was pure intensity, heart, desire and determination... a born leader of men.   Ray was clinically OCD and it impacted his routines, preparation, diet, etc... also barely ever showed emotion.  Pierce was more loosey goosey, relaxed, party guy, but his talent spoke for itself.   Rondo had all of these mentors to guide him into the player he was prior the injury. He also had players around him and a system that maximized his talents and hid his weaknesses.  They surrounded him with shooters and gave him free reign to load up on boatloads of assists.  It was a perfect storm of circumstances.  I sincerely don't believe ROndo would have ended up the player he became if he had been stuck getting minutes by default on some bottomfeeder lotto squad.  Unfortunately, that's what Sully is dealing with.  He'll be force-fed minutes on a bottomfeeder lotto squad with no quality mentors to guide him to greatness.  That's an Antoine Walker recipe... if Sully was anywhere near as naturally talented as Antoine Walker had been. 

[snively]

It's hardly a dream combo, but I think they need to be starting together until Rondo comes back.

This is a team that can only function offensively out of the high-post without Rondo.  We don't have a single player who can consistently create for himself or others from the perimeter (unless you count low-efficiency chuckers like Crawford/Brooks).

Bass & Hump are hopelessly ill-equipped for on-ball, decision-making roles.  Both guys are athletic garbage men whose primary instinct with the ball is to face-up, drive hard to their strong hand and force up a shot, or, more often, to hold the ball helplessly until a guard makes himself available to pass it off to.

Sully and KO on the other hand are both cerebral players with high levels of comfort handling, passing and making decisions with the ball.  Their joint presence on the court frees up Bradley/Green/Wallace to focus on cutting, attacking and shooting.

[D.o.s.]

I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".

Incidentally, I read a great article last night that pretty much perfectly summarized Gladwell's approach.

Accessorizing your otherwise inconsistent or incoherent story-based argument with pieces of science is a profitable rhetorical strategy because references to science are crucial touchpoints that help readers maintain their default instinct to believe what they are being told. They help because when readers see "science" they can suppress any skepticism that might be bubbling up in response to the inconsistencies and contradictions. I believe that most of Gladwell’s readers think he is telling stories to bring alive what science has discovered, rather than using science to attach a false authority to the ideas he has distilled from the stories he chooses to tell.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/10/malcolm_gladwell_critique_david_and_goliath_misrepresents_the_science.html

Although I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis, I do think that MG leaves a whole lot to be desired in his work.

[BballTim]

Not sure sully will get all those things.

But imo if we can isolate, i bet with sully on the floor the team will be at a higher plus/minus vs if rondo were on the floor and no sully

  I wouldn't be surprised if Rondo didn't have a great +/- because (as we saw last year) he plays the most minutes on the team and ends up on the court with the crappier lineups.

Here is a site that calculates adjusted +/- for nba players, it goes back quite a ways. And by adjusted it uses regressions (I believe though maybe its a different statistical method in this case) to isolate individual player performance.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

Rondo was having the worst year in quite some time, but was still solidly better than Sullinger. Rondo in prior years blows Sullinger away.

  I think Rondo's numbers were down because the team (and the other players) were so inconsistent last year. Green, Terry and PP all went through longish health-related slumps last year and all of those happened during the first half of the season. Also, the defense was significantly worse earlier in the season than late in the season.

[BballTim]

And I basically agree with triboy's point.  Rondo always had potential, but I don't think Rondo would have peaked as a Top 10 PG if it hadn't been for a perfect storm of circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".  ROndo came in as a 3rd string and had to work hard to earn his place.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  His coach was a former all-star PG.  His second season he's thrusted into a winning culture with 3 jedi master hall-of-famers carrying the team to a title and imparting endless wisdom on the young padawan.  The team signs a hall-of-fame backup (Sam Cassell) to impart more wisdom.  Later the team brings in another former all-star for Rondo to spar with in practice (Marbury).  He had multiple seasons to learn from Ray, KG and Pierce who were all vastly different in their approach to greatness.  KG was pure intensity, heart, desire and determination... a born leader of men.   Ray was clinically OCD and it impacted his routines, preparation, diet, etc... also barely ever showed emotion.  Pierce was more loosey goosey, relaxed, party guy, but his talent spoke for itself.   Rondo had all of these mentors to guide him into the player he was prior the injury. He also had players around him and a system that maximized his talents and hid his weaknesses.  They surrounded him with shooters and gave him free reign to load up on boatloads of assists.  It was a perfect storm of circumstances.  I sincerely don't believe ROndo would have ended up the player he became if he had been stuck getting minutes by default on some bottomfeeder lotto squad.

  One would assume that the "jedi masters" imparted the same amount of wisdom on Rondo that the did on Glen Davis, or that Doc and Danny tutored Rondo the same way they did Telfair and Delonte. And really, Marbury? Tutoring Rondo on the finer points of eating vaseline perhaps? Too funny.

  Many people could see that Rondo could be a special player very early on, as in his first few exhibition games. He's a great player because he has skills that extend well beyond the ability of any of the people who were mentoring him, skills that really can't be taught. If your theory was at all reasonable we'd see many other cases of players getting "mentored" to perennial all-stars, but no such players come to mind.

[LarBrd33]

And I basically agree with triboy's point.  Rondo always had potential, but I don't think Rondo would have peaked as a Top 10 PG if it hadn't been for a perfect storm of circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".  ROndo came in as a 3rd string and had to work hard to earn his place.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  His coach was a former all-star PG.  His second season he's thrusted into a winning culture with 3 jedi master hall-of-famers carrying the team to a title and imparting endless wisdom on the young padawan.  The team signs a hall-of-fame backup (Sam Cassell) to impart more wisdom.  Later the team brings in another former all-star for Rondo to spar with in practice (Marbury).  He had multiple seasons to learn from Ray, KG and Pierce who were all vastly different in their approach to greatness.  KG was pure intensity, heart, desire and determination... a born leader of men.   Ray was clinically OCD and it impacted his routines, preparation, diet, etc... also barely ever showed emotion.  Pierce was more loosey goosey, relaxed, party guy, but his talent spoke for itself.   Rondo had all of these mentors to guide him into the player he was prior the injury. He also had players around him and a system that maximized his talents and hid his weaknesses.  They surrounded him with shooters and gave him free reign to load up on boatloads of assists.  It was a perfect storm of circumstances.  I sincerely don't believe ROndo would have ended up the player he became if he had been stuck getting minutes by default on some bottomfeeder lotto squad.

  One would assume that the "jedi masters" imparted the same amount of wisdom on Rondo that the did on Glen Davis, or that Doc and Danny tutored Rondo the same way they did Telfair and Delonte. And really, Marbury? Tutoring Rondo on the finer points of eating vaseline perhaps? Too funny.

  Many people could see that Rondo could be a special player very early on, as in his first few exhibition games. He's a great player because he has skills that extend well beyond the ability of any of the people who were mentoring him, skills that really can't be taught. If your theory was at all reasonable we'd see many other cases of players getting "mentored" to perennial all-stars, but no such players come to mind.

Look all I'm saying is that in a few years when Rondo medically retires from the Pacers, I think we'll look back on his pretty successful career and wonder if he would have still made 4 all-star teams if he had been drafted into a different situation. 

[mmmmm]

And I basically agree with triboy's point.  Rondo always had potential, but I don't think Rondo would have peaked as a Top 10 PG if it hadn't been for a perfect storm of circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".  ROndo came in as a 3rd string and had to work hard to earn his place.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  His coach was a former all-star PG.  His second season he's thrusted into a winning culture with 3 jedi master hall-of-famers carrying the team to a title and imparting endless wisdom on the young padawan.  The team signs a hall-of-fame backup (Sam Cassell) to impart more wisdom.  Later the team brings in another former all-star for Rondo to spar with in practice (Marbury).  He had multiple seasons to learn from Ray, KG and Pierce who were all vastly different in their approach to greatness.  KG was pure intensity, heart, desire and determination... a born leader of men.   Ray was clinically OCD and it impacted his routines, preparation, diet, etc... also barely ever showed emotion.  Pierce was more loosey goosey, relaxed, party guy, but his talent spoke for itself.   Rondo had all of these mentors to guide him into the player he was prior the injury. He also had players around him and a system that maximized his talents and hid his weaknesses.  They surrounded him with shooters and gave him free reign to load up on boatloads of assists.  It was a perfect storm of circumstances.  I sincerely don't believe ROndo would have ended up the player he became if he had been stuck getting minutes by default on some bottomfeeder lotto squad.

  One would assume that the "jedi masters" imparted the same amount of wisdom on Rondo that the did on Glen Davis, or that Doc and Danny tutored Rondo the same way they did Telfair and Delonte. And really, Marbury? Tutoring Rondo on the finer points of eating vaseline perhaps? Too funny.

  Many people could see that Rondo could be a special player very early on, as in his first few exhibition games. He's a great player because he has skills that extend well beyond the ability of any of the people who were mentoring him, skills that really can't be taught. If your theory was at all reasonable we'd see many other cases of players getting "mentored" to perennial all-stars, but no such players come to mind.

Look all I'm saying is that in a few years when Rondo medically retires from the Pacers, I think we'll look back on his pretty successful career and wonder if he would have still made 4 all-star teams if he had been drafted into a different situation.

That's an interesting alternate universe you live in.    Pacers?

I love the way you have worked this from lauding Rondo's greatness relative to Sully's potential all the way to your usual thread of conversation.

Oh, the clever and witty backhanded 'complements'!   It leaves one positively chortling over the keyboard!

Whatever.   The comparison of Rondo's achievements to Sully's potential was strange anyway.

[BballTim]

And I basically agree with triboy's point.  Rondo always had potential, but I don't think Rondo would have peaked as a Top 10 PG if it hadn't been for a perfect storm of circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think this is a perfect example of Gladwell's "Outliers".  ROndo came in as a 3rd string and had to work hard to earn his place.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  His coach was a former all-star PG.  His second season he's thrusted into a winning culture with 3 jedi master hall-of-famers carrying the team to a title and imparting endless wisdom on the young padawan.  The team signs a hall-of-fame backup (Sam Cassell) to impart more wisdom.  Later the team brings in another former all-star for Rondo to spar with in practice (Marbury).  He had multiple seasons to learn from Ray, KG and Pierce who were all vastly different in their approach to greatness.  KG was pure intensity, heart, desire and determination... a born leader of men.   Ray was clinically OCD and it impacted his routines, preparation, diet, etc... also barely ever showed emotion.  Pierce was more loosey goosey, relaxed, party guy, but his talent spoke for itself.   Rondo had all of these mentors to guide him into the player he was prior the injury. He also had players around him and a system that maximized his talents and hid his weaknesses.  They surrounded him with shooters and gave him free reign to load up on boatloads of assists.  It was a perfect storm of circumstances.  I sincerely don't believe ROndo would have ended up the player he became if he had been stuck getting minutes by default on some bottomfeeder lotto squad.

  One would assume that the "jedi masters" imparted the same amount of wisdom on Rondo that the did on Glen Davis, or that Doc and Danny tutored Rondo the same way they did Telfair and Delonte. And really, Marbury? Tutoring Rondo on the finer points of eating vaseline perhaps? Too funny.

  Many people could see that Rondo could be a special player very early on, as in his first few exhibition games. He's a great player because he has skills that extend well beyond the ability of any of the people who were mentoring him, skills that really can't be taught. If your theory was at all reasonable we'd see many other cases of players getting "mentored" to perennial all-stars, but no such players come to mind.

Look all I'm saying is that in a few years when Rondo medically retires from the Pacers, I think we'll look back on his pretty successful career and wonder if he would have still made 4 all-star teams if he had been drafted into a different situation.

  Not people who understand that he'd have been scoring more and putting up better stats if he wasn't on a team of stars, much like pretty much every other great player in the league. I can see how the people who have been claiming for years that Rondo won't be as good without the big three even though we've been watching his play improve as PP/KG/Ray became significantly less effective might be confused about the situation, but there's no need to lump the rest of us into that lot.

[bleedGREENdon]

TBH they are both role players. If sully doesn't get a knock down mid ranger he will forever be a good bench player. Not enough height to be anywhere near rondo level caliber being talked about the top 5 of his position. Sully is great to have off the bench to get boards and hustle. Once again unless he gets a knock down mid ranger then he won't be anywhere near rondo.

Kelly on the other hand. I can see him being a starting PF on a contending team.
Reasons for this-

1. Has potential to be a knock down shooter. He's 7ft and already has great touch. If he continues to work on his 3 point and midrange he can easily be a great shooter with his height.

2. Height height height. He is 7' any 7' in the league will stick around, look at fab Melo. On top of this he isn't a sped at 7' he is smart and makes smart decisions.

3. Array of moves. Yes I seen him go up against Tyson chandler today and get absolutely rejected 3x in one play, he kept trying to fake Tyson out, but Tyson is one of TE leagues best defending centers, and TBH over time Kelly will make guys like Tyson look like a clown.

4. RONDO/ Running the floor- Kelly runs up and down the court great. Him and Faveroni were outrunning the Knicks bigs almost every time down. Now with rondo, this will lead to easy baskets for Kelly, I will also enjoy seeing rondo pass back to Kelly on the fast break for 3s. Drive and dish for 3.

AT WORST I see Kelly Being a Okur/Bargnani player, with more post moves, and IMO that is a great piece to have in a starting lineup of a championship team who scores a lot of points. Yes his defense needs to improve , but if he's paired with a great defending Center he will be good.

[Celtics18]

Seeing Kelly O. in person tonight, I was struck by the fact that he really doesn't look like an exceptional athlete.  And, he doesn't look like he ever will be.  On the other hand, even though, he hasn't really been super impressive in his first two preseason games, the thing that I really like about him is that he always looks like he's a threat to make a really sweet looking basketball play.  The kid is just a "baller" in a very old school sense of the term. 

I'm excited about watching him develop.  I think he has the tools, the smarts, and the basketball instincts to overcome his physical limitations and become something pretty special. 

[Tr1boy]

Seeing Kelly O. in person tonight, I was struck by the fact that he really doesn't look like an exceptional athlete.  And, he doesn't look like he ever will be.  On the other hand, even though, he hasn't really been super impressive in his first two preseason games, the thing that I really like about him is that he always looks like he's a threat to make a really sweet looking basketball play.  The kid is just a "baller" in a very old school sense of the term. 

I'm excited about watching him develop.  I think he has the tools, the smarts, and the basketball instincts to overcome his physical limitations and become something pretty special.

His iq, motor is great. But he is overpassing right now. Too much respect and prob overwhelmed with playing with players he grew up watching on tv.