Author Topic: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!  (Read 15038 times)

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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 12:53:16 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Getting creative?

Maybe he listed the wings in one group?

Green
Wallace
(big space)
Bradley (should he be on this list?)
Bogans
Brooks
Lee
(big space)
Crawford

And then just take the top four as the rotation?

If Bradley is backup point (heaven help us), then after Green/Wallace come Bogans and Brooks. 

I think a rotation can be made out of that that involves Wallace starting for 6 minutes, then Bogans coming in.  It would also allow a showcase of Wallace and Bogans, and perhaps the defensive combination is working?

I mean, I think I've been lumping the Forwards in together into a Green/Wallace/Sully/Bass/KO group.  Organizing by "wing" and "big" perhaps makes as much sense?

And I suppose our Forwards are, generally, better than our SG crop...

Most of us would drop Lee and Crawford, perhaps Brooks and Bogans even, for absolutely nothing.  Pretty much all of our Forwards can play.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:04:17 PM by More Banners »

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 02:46:55 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm not a big fan of Green at the 2, but it makes sense considering the amount of PFs we have on the team plus Gerald Wallace being one of the better players on the team.  Comparatively, the talent level at guard is much lower.
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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 03:01:26 PM »

Online snively

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I'm assuming the purpose of this would be to play Wallace at the 3, since we have such a logjam at the 4.

We will be really suffering from a lack of offensive skill with that wing tandem, especially with Bradley likely taking the lion's share of minutes at PG. 

I guess Stevens is willing to sacrifice skill for sheer defensive size.  Either that or he's willing to ignore positions to get his 5 best players on the court.


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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 03:04:16 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Makes sense. We only have 5 other guys at that position.

Haha this made me chuckle aloud.

Like someone else says, not really news. Green played the SG position last year alongside Pierce. I liked that line up on paper. But with the players we have this year I would much rather see Green play his minutes (majority) at the Forward position.

I could've sworn those lineups had Pierce at the 2 guard spot.
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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 03:24:40 PM »

Offline mgent

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All in all, I don't see many unguardable guys. The ones who are unguardable like Wade and Harden are unguardable by anyone, not just Green.

I think you're missing the point.  The idea isn't to just find guys that won't torch Green, or that he can "hold his own" against.  A player should be able to control his opponent while gaining a greater advantage to justify playing him out of position where he's comfortable.


Quote
He can cover smaller guards like Mayo, Beal, etc and even if he can't, they're going to struggle to guard him as well.

This is, 99% of the time, not a viable basketball strategy/argument, no one ever advocates a Yao Ming or Shaq should play PF because PF's are going to struggle to guard them as well.

Defense should always be the first priority, especially when you've got a guy like Rondo running the offense.


Quote
In a league in which defensive wing role players have to be able to guard both positions, it's an interchangeable position.

So you're talking about all of 2 or 3 elite "defensive wing role players" who are effective at guarding both positions on a consistent basis?  And Green isn't even close to a stopper on defense, let alone elite or versatile.  Nor is he a role player anymore, we're talking about a 30+ minute guy.

Then you've got the long list of players that are offensively talented enough to remain consistently effective at both positions, which I believe starts and ends with Joe Johnson.

I'm sorry, but despite a league that is starting to become interchangeable at the 4/5 and 1/2, SG and SF are still far from interchangeable aside from spot minutes or specific matchups.

Quote
Green should be able to cover the role players like Sefolosha, Green, Butler, Allen and Shumpert.

Ehhh, I'm pretty sure Butler and Shumpert torched the Celtics last with guys like Lee and Bradley on them.

You're saying that just because certain players don't always bring consistency on offense that a SF like Green should have no problem covering them.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 03:30:51 PM by mgent »
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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 04:27:03 PM »

Offline Galeto

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All in all, I don't see many unguardable guys. The ones who are unguardable like Wade and Harden are unguardable by anyone, not just Green.

I think you're missing the point.  The idea isn't to just find guys that won't torch Green, or that he can "hold his own" against.  A player should be able to control his opponent while gaining a greater advantage to justify playing him out of position where he's comfortable.


Quote
He can cover smaller guards like Mayo, Beal, etc and even if he can't, they're going to struggle to guard him as well.

This is, 99% of the time, not a viable basketball strategy/argument, no one ever advocates a Yao Ming or Shaq should play PF because PF's are going to struggle to guard them as well.

Defense should always be the first priority, especially when you've got a guy like Rondo running the offense.


Quote
In a league in which defensive wing role players have to be able to guard both positions, it's an interchangeable position.

So you're talking about all of 2 or 3 elite "defensive wing role players" who are effective at guarding both positions on a consistent basis?  And Green isn't even close to a stopper on defense, let alone elite or versatile.  Nor is he a role player anymore, we're talking about a 30+ minute guy.

Then you've got the long list of players that are offensively talented enough to remain consistently effective at both positions, which I believe starts and ends with Joe Johnson.

I'm sorry, but despite a league that is starting to become interchangeable at the 4/5 and 1/2, SG and SF are still far from interchangeable aside from spot minutes or specific matchups.

Quote
Green should be able to cover the role players like Sefolosha, Green, Butler, Allen and Shumpert.

Ehhh, I'm pretty sure Butler and Shumpert torched the Celtics last with guys like Lee and Bradley on them.

You're saying that just because certain players don't always bring consistency on offense that a SF like Green should have no problem covering them.

Did I miss the point?  I just didn't want to break down how I thought Green would fare in every match but I wasn't saying, "Green won't get torch by so and so guys, therefore he should be capable of playing SG."  No, my point was, he won't get torched because you are wildly overrating the quickness advantage of shooting guards over Green as well as their offensive abilities as a whole.

Be specific.  Aside from guys like Wade or Harden, who are unguardable by almost anyone and plus utilize screens so well that it's not a one-man effort anyway, who will torch Green?

Take the Atlantic Conference:

1) Derozon.  What disadvantage does Green have defensively in this matchup? He can contain Derozan off the dribble and in the post, where Derozan improved, Green's size should serve well if not outright discourage any post ups.

2) Evan Turner.  No reason he couldn't guard him.  He's not quicker. 

3) Joe Johnson. Johnson was never the quickest guy anyway, relying on great ballhandling ability and strength to almost walk his way down the basket.  The size advantage he's enjoyed has been a big part of his game and Green would nullify that.

4) Shumpert.  First of all, I just wanted to say that your memory of who guarded who is inaccurate.  When Pierce and Green played the wings together, it was Pierce who spent most of the time defending guards.  Anyway, as for Shumpert, did he have some good games?  Well yeah, he shot better than expected.  Would I call it torching and indefensible?  Hardly.  You're really claiming that Green wouldn't stand a chance against Shumpert, really? Your supposition that because Bradley and Lee (OMG actual guards who defended him!!!) struggled, therefore what chance does Green have is, I don't know, kind of silly too. 

What it comes down to for me with Green defending 2s is that most of them are not quicker.  2-Guards and Small forwards are not much different athletically.  This is a concept that won't die.  People still mindlessly think that because a prospect isn't the best ballhandler, therefore he's automatically a small forward.  The main difference is size.  The real quickness gap exists between points and wings and this is why I wouldn't advocate Green guarding points.  Further, a lot of the 2-guards aren't even penetrating types anyway. Green is capable of keeping them out of the paint and contesting their shots on the perimeter.  If Danny Green, who I acknowledge is an underrated athlete, can defend 2-guards, yeah, I think Jeff Green is athletically capable of it too. 

Instead of praying he would hold his own, I think he might be better suited to being a guard.  Defensively, I think he'll fine and offensively, since he's not all that good penetrating against fellow wing players anyway, having extra inches of clearance on his jump shot and in the post should be very helpful for him.


Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »

Offline riffic92

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Since when does "Green will see minutes at SG this season" translate to "Green is now a full-time SG"?

We're in a transition year.  There's a ton of new pieces and lineups to experiment with, why wouldn't Stevens go big with Green at SG and see what happens?

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 05:54:10 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Since when does "Green will see minutes at SG this season" translate to "Green is now a full-time SG"?

We're in a transition year.  There's a ton of new pieces and lineups to experiment with, why wouldn't Stevens go big with Green at SG and see what happens?

Its going to be experiments after experiments.

But fact is if our starting lineup is projected to be hump, bass, green, ab, rondo might as well throw in the towel.  No coach can help such lineup even sneak in the playoffs.

However u experiment a bit and u never know. Green has sg like qualities about him. He has incredible height for the position also. Even if he gets beat by the dribble his reach would help compensate that  his shooting is alot better now too

Then u have ab defending pg pos. Which will be a nightmare for 90 per of the leagur pg.

U got wallace playing sf but really handling the rebounding duties , olynyk at pf bringing his man out to the perimeter and also he gets to abuse with his height.

Its an interesting lineup in theory

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2013, 06:16:50 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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The things that are bothersome when Green plays the 2 would be his quickness and "Top Gun" mentality.

Quickness on the defensive end might bring a problem especially if he is pitted against guys like Wade, Harden, JR Smith to name a few. But he will definitely be good on the offensive end against them. Stevens might be thinking of making a good match up against the likes of Kobe, Melo and Paul George at the SG.

On being the Top Gun, I think Green would have to learn to instill in his mind that he would be the number one scoring option, taking more shots and willing to take on most challenges when the ball is in his hands. Or, better yet try to have a mindset like Bird.

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2013, 06:23:21 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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The things that are bothersome when Green plays the 2 would be his quickness and "Top Gun" mentality.

Quickness on the defensive end might bring a problem especially if he is pitted against guys like Wade, Harden, JR Smith to name a few. But he will definitely be good on the offensive end against them. Stevens might be thinking of making a good match up against the likes of Kobe, Melo and Paul George at the SG.

On being the Top Gun, I think Green would have to learn to instill in his mind that he would be the number one scoring option, taking more shots and willing to take on most challenges when the ball is in his hands. Or, better yet try to have a mindset like Bird.

Wade, Harden, JR Smith while faster could also have a load to handle with greens reach and height.  On the flipside also, how will they handle him on defense??

So if they go at it, i think Green in the end, gets the best of any of these guys.  We will have to see

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2013, 06:51:22 PM »

Offline Eja117

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You gotta...know when to hold em....know when to fold em..

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2013, 09:14:32 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Either that or he's willing to ignore positions to get his 5 best players on the court.

Well, taken to the extremes, anything is bad. But generally, that (putting your best 5 players on the floor as much as possible) is the best philosophy in the NBA.

And the fact is, Green and Wallace are two of the better players on this team - probably in the top 3 with Rondo.  So I can totally understand Stevens wanting to figure out ways to have both on the floor.

One of the reasons that Green had such success against Miami last year is because we put both Green and Pierce on the floor at the same time, forcing Lebron (their best defender) to have to choose to guard one or the other.   Wallace is not the scoring threat that Green is, but the two of them still could present a similar sort of quandary for defenses.

I think we'll see Green starting, Wallace coming off the bench and then both of them staying on for significant minutes of overlap together.  Against some teams, they will cover the 4 and the 3 and against others they will cover the 3 and the 2.   

'All about da match-ups.
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Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2013, 09:14:48 PM »

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Yeah, I agree that the reaction to this is too strong.  I think Stevens is tring to do is find minutes for Wallace.  So for certain match ups, and probably for short periods of time, he can move Green over to SG to give Wallace time at SF.

I trust that they aren't going to do it if the match up isn't favorable.

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 09:18:43 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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The things that are bothersome when Green plays the 2 would be his quickness and "Top Gun" mentality.

Quickness on the defensive end might bring a problem especially if he is pitted against guys like Wade, Harden, JR Smith to name a few. But he will definitely be good on the offensive end against them. Stevens might be thinking of making a good match up against the likes of Kobe, Melo and Paul George at the SG.

On being the Top Gun, I think Green would have to learn to instill in his mind that he would be the number one scoring option, taking more shots and willing to take on most challenges when the ball is in his hands. Or, better yet try to have a mindset like Bird.

Wade, Harden, JR Smith while faster could also have a load to handle with greens reach and height.  On the flipside also, how will they handle him on defense??



This is going to be fun to watch. Green at SG against the likes of those 3 you've mentioned and to the other marquee players like Kobe (who will need a lot of help to cover Green), Melo and PGeorge.

Re: Jeff Green will get minutes at the shooting guard position!
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2013, 05:41:07 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Sounds like a recipe for losses ...
why?! He is athletic enough to keep up with shooting guards and big enough to take advantage of size over most of them.

Because putting Jeff at SG would IMO be trading one advantage for one disadvantage.  You add an advantage because obviously he is bigger and stronger than just ab out every guard out there.  You add a disadvantage because Jeff is a mediocre ballhandler even by SF standards, and I think putting him at the SG spot will only emphasise this problem (much like AB at PG).

The other reason is that we currently have about 5 SG's, about 5 PF's and only only two legit SF's - Green and Wallace.  The SF position is one of the positions we are most lacking depth.  So, why take your best SF away from a position you lack depth at and then move him to a position you are most stacked at?  Makes zero sense unless there is a very big (i.e. 3+ player) trade happening some time soon.