Starting Point Guard thru December?

[Boris Badenov]

Green was much more of a facilitator at Georgetown than he has been as a pro, not so much dribbling and creating, but out of the low and high posts. I'd hope Stevens pursues that route as well.

I worry that KO will not be ready for heavy minutes - particularly with the ball in his hands - early in the season.

Just like I don't want Bradley to have to split his mindset away from defense (I don't mean not taking offensive when it is there), I don't particularly want Green going back to being a third option on scoring right now.  I want him to continue to be aggressive on offense and not have to worry about distribution.  I like the way he was taking control of offense last year.  I want more of that. I am not saying that KO is capable of being the primary ball handler or playing long minutes (although he may be in better shape than we think).  I am saying he may be able to help fill in with distribution, and it may add to the defensive problems of opponents, not knowing where the offense is starting.  He seems like a bright kid who can pick up the offensive sets quickly.  Or at least, one can hope.

There are plenty of big guys who've been first options on offense as well as great facilitators. KG, CWebb, etc. all were big guys who created offense for others out of the post.

I think it'd be a good addition to Green's game, rather than substituting one thing for another. Of course, this dream also involves him developing a better low post game. Who knows whether that's possible.

[D.o.s.]

From another thread:

Jay King @ByJayKing

"The way Stevens has been talking, expect Avery Bradley as opening night starting point guard."

Now that is interesting.

I assume that makes our starting guard/wing rotation look a little like this?
Bradley/Pressey
Lee/Crawford/Bogans
Green/Brookes

[green147]

If Stevens starts Bradley at PG, that would be the first thing he's done thus far that I disagree with. Bradley needs to find himself as a scorer and he has shown he can't do that when he's worried about PG duties.

[Boris Badenov]

If Stevens starts Bradley at PG, that would be the first thing he's done thus far that I disagree with. Bradley needs to find himself as a scorer and he has shown he can't do that when he's worried about PG duties.

I agree with you and said much the same thing earlier in the thread, but I have come around to the view that Stevens might be handcuffed on this one.

Bradley is at least a proven rotation-quality player, and he and Lee have actually served as a starting tandem before.

With all of the other moving parts and new pieces on this team, including Stevens himself, I think starting Bradley could be as much about stability as anything. I'm less convinced about Lee, given that we will probably sorely need scoring in that first unit, but I wouldn't be surprised if Stevens went with Bradley/Lee.

I agree with many others that it might be ugly, but I think this might be the lesser evil.

[Celtics18]

I like Bradley as the starting "point guard" while Rondo is out.  I put the term point guard in quotation marks, because Avery obviously won't be a traditional lead guard.  I'd actually like to see either Crawford or Brooks start next to him, and see the ball handling duties shared between the trio of Bradley/two guard/Green.  I'd rather have Lee (who I think is our second best guard) come in off the bench, as I feel that his skillset replicates Bradley's to a large extent.

The combo of Bradley and Lee played fairly well as a starting back court together down the stretch, but they had the luxury of having Paul Pierce in there as a facilitator and point forward.  While I think that Jeff Green has shown that he can handle the ball some and create off the dribble some, he's no Paul Pierce in that regard. 

I'm interested to see what Stevens does with this lineup.  I'm also starting to become more and more interested in seeing what Marshon Brooks can bring to the table.  From what I've seen of him, I think I prefer him to Crawford, but the battle for minutes on this team between the two of them should be intriguing. 

[Eric M VAN]

I guess I'm not being analytical enough about it.

Bradley started 39 games after Rondo went out last year. If you're telling me he wasn't playing PG during those 39 games, or was thrust into some hybrid type of position that wasn't what he'd be asked to play under this years circumstances, then I suppose you have a point that "we" can't determine how he'll do running an offense under this years model.

To speak to your criticism of the analysis that started this back and forth, I can't condemn the analysis because it's simplistic or measured in some fashion to show every conceivable circumstance.

These guys TOV%, ASST% etc are what they are. Perhaps that's too "5000" feet for you or anyone to actually determine whether a player is more apt to be suitable for one position vs another. I thought (and think) it's an interesting glance at who's actually performed in certain areas you'd want a PG to excel at.

The beaten horse isn't quite dead yet.

So it's seek and yea shall find

I finally was able to find position stats for 12-13 via 82games.com (I like the site but it's tough going sorting through all of it sometimes)

Here's the link to Team Production by position from last year
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM

How to see the individual's from last years roster.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS.HTM

Here's the link to Bradley from last year.
(His "By Position Stats are about 1/2 way down.)
It lists him as spending 29% of his 36% of floor minutes at the PG position so, according to them, he was playing PG the majority of his 50 odd games (exactly HOW they make that determination, I don't know if they watch game films or just make assumptions...they have a pretty good rep so I'm assuming they know what they're talking about...assuming, assuming).

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS2.HTM

People can look at for themselves and judge his performance but I'll just cherry pick his PER (Love it/Hate it, a lot of folks give it credence when evaluating OFFENSIVE #'s) @PG was 8.5 (Avg is 15). It was 9.8 @pg the year before.

For some context,
Rondo's PER for PG was 18.5
Terry's PER for PG was 14.6
Lee's PER for PG was 14.7 (miniscule sample size)
Crawford's PER for PG 14.6 (Miniscule Sample again)
Overall team PER for PG 14.9

Anyways, anyone's that interested can go to those links and do your own comparison that's (supposedly) more Apples to Apples.


Laa-dee-daa

[Vermont Green]

Just like I don't want Bradley to have to split his mindset away from defense

Boy, I really don't understand this concern.  I don't see trying to learn to be a better offensive PG being something that will limit his ability to play defense.

[Boris Badenov]

I guess I'm not being analytical enough about it.

Bradley started 39 games after Rondo went out last year. If you're telling me he wasn't playing PG during those 39 games, or was thrust into some hybrid type of position that wasn't what he'd be asked to play under this years circumstances, then I suppose you have a point that "we" can't determine how he'll do running an offense under this years model.

To speak to your criticism of the analysis that started this back and forth, I can't condemn the analysis because it's simplistic or measured in some fashion to show every conceivable circumstance.

These guys TOV%, ASST% etc are what they are. Perhaps that's too "5000" feet for you or anyone to actually determine whether a player is more apt to be suitable for one position vs another. I thought (and think) it's an interesting glance at who's actually performed in certain areas you'd want a PG to excel at.

The beaten horse isn't quite dead yet.

So it's seek and yea shall find

I finally was able to find position stats for 12-13 via 82games.com (I like the site but it's tough going sorting through all of it sometimes)

Here's the link to Team Production by position from last year
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM

How to see the individual's from last years roster.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS.HTM

Here's the link to Bradley from last year.
(His "By Position Stats are about 1/2 way down.)
It lists him as spending 29% of his 36% of floor minutes at the PG position so, according to them, he was playing PG the majority of his 50 odd games.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS2.HTM

People can look at for themselves and judge his performance but I'll just mention his PER (Love it/Hate it, a lot of folks give it credence when evaluating OFFENSIVE #'s) @PG
was 8.5 (Avg is 15).

For some context,
Rondo's PER for PG was 18.5
Terry's PER for PG was 14.6
Lee's PER for PG was 14.7 (miniscule sample size)
Crawford's PER for PG 14.6 (Miniscule Sample again)
Overall team PER for PG 14.9

Anyways, anyone's that interested can go to those links and do your own comparison that's (supposedly) more Apples to Apples.


Laa-dee-daa

I have a vague recollection about those 82games position numbers being inaccurate, but can't remember the details.

Also if you believe those numbers he was even *worse* at SG (own 7.5 opp 13.5 vs. 8.5/12.8 ). It appears that his net +/- was better at PG too.

Just to throw more gasoline on the fire, for what it's worth those 82games numbers also show that Jeff Green was far superior as a PF rather than an SF last year.

[Eric M VAN]

I have a vague recollection about those 82games position numbers being inaccurate, but can't remember the details.

Also if you believe those numbers he was even *worse* at SG (own 7.5 opp 13.5 vs. 8.5/12.8 ). It appears that his net +/- was better at PG too.

Just to throw more gasoline on the fire, for what it's worth those 82games numbers also show that Jeff Green was far superior as a PF rather than an SF last year.

Ya got me, I "assumed" there was some formula or game film watched. Maybe they flipped a coin or threw some dice. Dunno, but it's what I could find 

I found some criticism of it from a few years ago

http://thereal2kinsider.blogspot.com/2009/11/82games-fake-stats.html

[Vermont Green]

When Rondo got hurt last season, and the Cs began their winning streak, everyone commented on how much faster they were pushing the pace.

If you watch those games, they pushed hardest when Lee, Bradley and Barbosa were rotated it at the 1-2.

It didnt matter who was technically the 1, b/c either guy could get up the floor as fast as possible, and run the point (lee did much better than i thought he was capable of). This kept defenses off-balance.

A mix of lee/bradley can work well and it's too bad doc went away from this in the playoffs in favor of more terry/twill.

It wasn't so much that it kept defenses off balance.  If defenses were able to set up, they really struggled to score.  But, by leaking guys out, and looking for the outlet, rather than looking for Rondo or Pierce, they were able to get a lot of quick offense.

And it didn't work long term.

That winning streak also coincided with a home streak against some weaker teams too.

Of course the biggest factor was Pierce stopped playing like poo. He was a legit all-nba caliber SF after Rondo's injury. The ten or so games before he was shooting in the 30s and playing awful defense.

They actaully played very well after Rondo got hurt with Bradley playing big minutes at PG until KG got hurt.  Then they went down hill very fast and even after KG came back they were never really played that well.

In fact, during that period where Bradley was playing PG a lot, the team actually averaged more assists than when Rondo was playing.

I think Bradley is a unique case.  He was so bad as a rookie that many here doubted he could play in the NBA.  If you just looked at the stats, you never would have predicted that he would develop in about 1 year into a solid NBA player.  Now there are big doubts he can play PG and bad stats again to back that up. 

He is unique in that he was so raw and immature emotionally/developmentally coming in that he could barely play.  I think he is still very immature as a player and that he still has significant unrealized upside.  He is only 22 and a young 22 by NBA standards developmentally I think.  I feel he will easily pass Crawford as PG and I think develop into a solid everyday PG for many years in the league

[thirstyboots18]

Just like I don't want Bradley to have to split his mindset away from defense

Boy, I really don't understand this concern.  I don't see trying to learn to be a better offensive PG being something that will limit his ability to play defense.

I have heard it said many times that good defense takes a lot of energy....energy can not be expended at both ends of the court, at least not for long. 

As far as defense...for example, before his injury people expected Rondo to play tight defense, run the team on offense and not slack off while playing 40++ minutes a game.  It can't be done.  It will have to be point guard by committee.  The question is who will be in at the  end the games!

[mmmmm]

Just like I don't want Bradley to have to split his mindset away from defense

Boy, I really don't understand this concern.  I don't see trying to learn to be a better offensive PG being something that will limit his ability to play defense.

I have heard it said many times that good defense takes a lot of energy....energy can not be expended at both ends of the court, at least not for long. 

As far as defense...for example, before his injury people expected Rondo to play tight defense, run the team on offense and not slack off while playing 40++ minutes a game.  It can't be done.  It will have to be point guard by committee.  The question is who will be in at the  end the games!

I dunno.  I really don't know if I believe there has to be a trade off and I don't believe athletes who are good at both offense and defense ever 'choose' to de-emphasize their effort on one end in favor of the other.

I think good athletes put their effort out towards what they are good at and if they are good at both ends of the court they will put out a strong effort on both ends.

This gets into intangibles and things we can never know, of course (What is going on in Kobe's brain while he's playing defense?  Is he thinking about the next offensive possession?).   I just am skeptical of this whole 'can't expend energy on both defense and offense' meme that has emerged around here the last couple of seasons.

[D.o.s.]

per ESPN Boston:

Pressey and Crawford seem to be competing for backup point guard minutes behind Avery Bradley with Rondo unlikely to be ready for the start of the season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4706925/intensity-rising-at-cs-workouts#more

[guava_wrench]

I think Bradley will be less bad at PG without Pierce and KG because he won't always feel like he has to defer. It is bad when a PG defers to others when setting up the offense. It can increase indecisiveness.

[thirstyboots18]

Just like I don't want Bradley to have to split his mindset away from defense

Boy, I really don't understand this concern.  I don't see trying to learn to be a better offensive PG being something that will limit his ability to play defense.

I have heard it said many times that good defense takes a lot of energy....energy can not be expended at both ends of the court, at least not for long. 

As far as defense...for example, before his injury people expected Rondo to play tight defense, run the team on offense and not slack off while playing 40++ minutes a game.  It can't be done.  It will have to be point guard by committee.  The question is who will be in at the  end the games!

I dunno.  I really don't know if I believe there has to be a trade off and I don't believe athletes who are good at both offense and defense ever 'choose' to de-emphasize their effort on one end in favor of the other.

I think good athletes put their effort out towards what they are good at and if they are good at both ends of the court they will put out a strong effort on both ends.

This gets into intangibles and things we can never know, of course (What is going on in Kobe's brain while he's playing defense?  Is he thinking about the next offensive possession?).   I just am skeptical of this whole 'can't expend energy on both defense and offense' meme that has emerged around here the last couple of seasons.

I know it is not exactly the same thing, and I don't know what you do for a living, but do you expend the same amount of energy on every aspect of your job, or do you save your best effort for the things that you feel are your most important contribution to the job's (team's) outcome?  Do you perhaps feel that you are stronger in some area so you concentrate on that, and expect someone who is more expert in another area to concentrate on that area?  I, myself, am always trying to do everything, and it does not work!  Bird played defense, but he was not a defensive player...he concentrated on offense.  DJ was a defensive player.  DJ could score, but that was Larry's job.  ya know? Russell and Rodman could have scored a lot more...they were capable of it. A few can do both and do both well...MJ, KG...but it is not that common to excel at both ends of the floor. Each takes too much energy.  JMO