T-Mac just retired.

[Moranis]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Clyde Drexler had a much longer peak and led a number of different teams to a number of playoff victories.  Not any where near the same thing as Tracy McGrady, who never even won a playoff series (the spurs doesn't count) and whose peak was very short.

[2short]

While not knocking McGrady or Carter I think the opposite for HOF.  Who isn't in that deserves it?? and where do those 2 guys stack up against those players.
Carter never liked, put up stats but showed little of an all around game

No matter how you look at it, quality of play and length of time playing has to play into HOF voting.  I'm not sure either guy in the end makes the cut.  Mr Pierce will make it!

Carter "showed little of an all around game."  Stats are free and readily available my man.  Carter's career averages are all but similar to Pierce's. 

Carters put up 21/5/3.8 with a career PER of 20.3

Pierce put up 22/6/3.9 with a career PER of 20.6.

Like Pierce, Carter was very much an all-around player.

as i said he put up stats
never seemed to do all the other things that pp or kobe would do for his team to win

[Eja117]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

[bdm860]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

Ya I can't believe this is even a discussion.

If anything it's like saying Mitch Richmond should be in the HOF (which is debatable), but then arguing his credentials are that he won a championship in 2002.  The thing is he only played in 2 games for a total of 4 minutes!

When dealing with discussions, debates, etc., for the sake of brevity many things are left unsaid and simply implied because it is usually understood that all parties involved understand the minor details, disclaimers, and footnotes regarding the topic.  I thought everybody understood that when it's said "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round...", that what is really being said is "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round on a team where he was a main contributor or even a regular rotation player.  Though he did make it to the Finals with San Antonio in 2013, he played in only 6 of the teams 21 playoff games (not even 2 rounds worth of playoff games),  was 12th on the team in minutes played, never scored a point, and only entered the game when the outcome was already decided, so most fans don't consider that relevant to the discussion since it is widely considered that he in no way contributed to San Antonio advancing past the first round or to the Finals."

See everything after, "never made it past the first round..." is usually believed to be understood and left out for brevity.

[Eja117]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

Ya I can't believe this is even a discussion.

If anything it's like saying Mitch Richmond should be in the HOF (which is debatable), but then arguing his credentials are that he won a championship in 2002.  The thing is he only played in 2 games for a total of 4 minutes!

When dealing with discussions, debates, etc., for the sake of brevity many things are left unsaid and simply implied because it is usually understood that all parties involved understand the minor details, disclaimers, and footnotes regarding the topic.  I thought everybody understood that when it's said "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round...", that what is really being said is "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round on a team where he was a main contributor or even a regular rotation player.  Though he did make it to the Finals with San Antonio in 2013, he played in only 6 of the teams 21 playoff games (not even 2 rounds worth of playoff games),  was 12th on the team in minutes played, never scored a point, and only entered the game when the outcome was already decided, so most fans don't consider that relevant to the discussion since it is widely considered that he in no way contributed to San Antonio advancing past the first round or to the Finals."

See everything after, "never made it past the first round..." is usually believed to be understood and left out for brevity.

By the same token I probably should have been more clear that I meant in the NBA playoffs. I have no idea if he made it past the first round in China, high school, AAU, elementary school, or youth rec league.

[D.o.s.]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

Ya I can't believe this is even a discussion.

If anything it's like saying Mitch Richmond should be in the HOF (which is debatable), but then arguing his credentials are that he won a championship in 2002.  The thing is he only played in 2 games for a total of 4 minutes!

When dealing with discussions, debates, etc., for the sake of brevity many things are left unsaid and simply implied because it is usually understood that all parties involved understand the minor details, disclaimers, and footnotes regarding the topic.  I thought everybody understood that when it's said "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round...", that what is really being said is "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round on a team where he was a main contributor or even a regular rotation player.  Though he did make it to the Finals with San Antonio in 2013, he played in only 6 of the teams 21 playoff games (not even 2 rounds worth of playoff games),  was 12th on the team in minutes played, never scored a point, and only entered the game when the outcome was already decided, so most fans don't consider that relevant to the discussion since it is widely considered that he in no way contributed to San Antonio advancing past the first round or to the Finals."

See everything after, "never made it past the first round..." is usually believed to be understood and left out for brevity.

Right. So "won a ring..." [at thirty three on a different team while being the third option while the best player in the league was on baseball sabbatical] and "made the finals..." [after years of being denied any playoff success despite incredible individual numbers and a history of crippling injuries] both have significant if unspoken caveats. That's pretty obvious.



However, the real point of bringing up the comparison;

7× NBA All-Star (2001–2007)
NBA Most Improved Player (2001)
2× NBA scoring champion (2003–2004)
2× All-NBA First Team (2002–2003)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2001, 2004, 2007)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2005, 2008)

Career:
19.6/5.6/4.4 on 44.5%/75%/34%

Playoffs:
22/7/5 on  43%/75%/29%

Doesn't compare all that badly to

NBA champion (1995)
10× NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1994, 1996–1997)
All-NBA First Team (1992)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1991)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1990, 1995)

Career:
20.4/6.1/5.6 on 47%/78%/31%

Playoffs:
20.4/6.9/6.1 on 44%/78%/28%

So while I don't think anyone would argue against Drexler being in the HoF, the case against McGrady seems to land solely on his lack of post-season success (and not his post-season statistics, which are actually quite good).

That's why its an interesting point. I'm not trying to get Clyde chucked out of the hall of Fame, he just happened to be a 6'8ish 200lb ish Very Good Scorer to compare to another.

[Eja117]

This is just me, but I always considered the HOF a place for players who had success, not stats. I don't think stats shows anything at all about how good you were. They help, but they just don't do it for me. There are probably tons of players with good stats that don't get in. 

For example....there's this one guy with pretty good stats

18.1pts, 7.5 rebs, 2.5 assists, 1 stl, almost a block. .472fg%. .81% ft...Olympic Gold medal...12 year career...totally totally doesn't get in....call it cherry picking if you will.

But this guy, despite some nice stats over a long period of time absolutely doesn't get in

[D.o.s.]

This is just me, but I always considered the HOF a place for players who had success, not stats. I don't think stats shows anything at all about how good you were. They help, but they just don't do it for me. There are probably tons of players with good stats that don't get in. 

For example....there's this one guy with pretty good stats

18.1pts, 7.5 rebs, 2.5 assists, 1 stl, almost a block. .472fg%. .81% ft...Olympic Gold medal...12 year career...totally totally doesn't get in....call it cherry picking if you will.

But this guy, despite some nice stats over a long period of time absolutely doesn't get in

I think there's a bit of a slippery slope on the other end though--since holding one individual responsible for a team's success is a tricky thing to keep a consistent handle on.

[Eja117]

Here's another one I don't see getting in although I see him as more deserving than TMac

played in 12 seasons. Played in the finals

career averages of almost 18, 9 assists, 1.5 steals...4 time all nba second team so you know he was good. A top 10 guy 4 times.  His number is retired by his college and pro team.

Highly respected in every way.....I just don't think this guy gets in.

[Eja117]

This is just me, but I always considered the HOF a place for players who had success, not stats. I don't think stats shows anything at all about how good you were. They help, but they just don't do it for me. There are probably tons of players with good stats that don't get in. 

For example....there's this one guy with pretty good stats

18.1pts, 7.5 rebs, 2.5 assists, 1 stl, almost a block. .472fg%. .81% ft...Olympic Gold medal...12 year career...totally totally doesn't get in....call it cherry picking if you will.

But this guy, despite some nice stats over a long period of time absolutely doesn't get in

I think there's a bit of a slippery slope on the other end though--since holding one individual responsible for a team's success is a tricky thing to keep a consistent handle on.

I see what you're saying, but he's also a guy who was hurt a lot.  And I'm not the one who yelled "It's on me!" I'm not saying Karl Malone and Stockton and Barkley don't get in. Or Reggie Miller. I'm not a huge fan of Patrick Ewing, but I realize I'm outvoted there about 7 billion to two with the other vote being Bill Simmons.

Just saying these guys with stats don't get in because of stats. Sometimes not even when you combine them with awards. I just don't see the HOF as a regular season award.

[D.o.s.]

I don't know--I think the biggest hurdle I have with what you're saying is not that I disagree with it, but that I don't really think anyone would say that Tracy McGrady was anything other than a Hall Of Fame talent.

That doesn't mean he is (or should be) a lock for the HoF, but it is an interesting dichotomy when you compare him to someone like Kobe, who's talents were not nearly as 'supernatural,' but who's resume utterly stomps T-Mac's.

[Eja117]

I wouldn't go so far as to say TMac didn't have HOF talent....but he doesn't have HOF results/success or HOF health.  He has one leg of the three leg table.  If we're nice then he has two.  Greg Oden may have all the talent in the world, but doesn't make it.

Now Yao Ming.

Now there's where I gotta pause and take a trip down Hypocrisy Hair Splitting Avenue....not sure how I feel about that.

[Moranis]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

Ya I can't believe this is even a discussion.

If anything it's like saying Mitch Richmond should be in the HOF (which is debatable), but then arguing his credentials are that he won a championship in 2002.  The thing is he only played in 2 games for a total of 4 minutes!

When dealing with discussions, debates, etc., for the sake of brevity many things are left unsaid and simply implied because it is usually understood that all parties involved understand the minor details, disclaimers, and footnotes regarding the topic.  I thought everybody understood that when it's said "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round...", that what is really being said is "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round on a team where he was a main contributor or even a regular rotation player.  Though he did make it to the Finals with San Antonio in 2013, he played in only 6 of the teams 21 playoff games (not even 2 rounds worth of playoff games),  was 12th on the team in minutes played, never scored a point, and only entered the game when the outcome was already decided, so most fans don't consider that relevant to the discussion since it is widely considered that he in no way contributed to San Antonio advancing past the first round or to the Finals."

See everything after, "never made it past the first round..." is usually believed to be understood and left out for brevity.

Right. So "won a ring..." [at thirty three on a different team while being the third option while the best player in the league was on baseball sabbatical] and "made the finals..." [after years of being denied any playoff success despite incredible individual numbers and a history of crippling injuries] both have significant if unspoken caveats. That's pretty obvious.



However, the real point of bringing up the comparison;

7× NBA All-Star (2001–2007)
NBA Most Improved Player (2001)
2× NBA scoring champion (2003–2004)
2× All-NBA First Team (2002–2003)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2001, 2004, 2007)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2005, 2008)

Career:
19.6/5.6/4.4 on 44.5%/75%/34%

Playoffs:
22/7/5 on  43%/75%/29%

Doesn't compare all that badly to

NBA champion (1995)
10× NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1994, 1996–1997)
All-NBA First Team (1992)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1991)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1990, 1995)

Career:
20.4/6.1/5.6 on 47%/78%/31%

Playoffs:
20.4/6.9/6.1 on 44%/78%/28%

So while I don't think anyone would argue against Drexler being in the HoF, the case against McGrady seems to land solely on his lack of post-season success (and not his post-season statistics, which are actually quite good).

That's why its an interesting point. I'm not trying to get Clyde chucked out of the hall of Fame, he just happened to be a 6'8ish 200lb ish Very Good Scorer to compare to another.

Drexler played in 145 playoff games (starting every single one after the 5 his rookie year).  Including 3 separate seasons of 21 or more.  Sure he didn't win the title until the tail end of his career (but far from his last year, he was in the second round and WCF in the two years after and still had 1 more playoff series after that), but that was his third finals appearance after being the leader on two separate finals teams (losing to the Bad Boy Pistons and the MJ/Pip Bulls in the finals the first two times).  Clyde played in a playoff series all 15 years he was in the league, winning at least one series 7 of those 15 years and winning a total of 16 playoff series (in which he started every single game of every single one of the playoff series victories)

McGrady played in 50 total playoff games (starting just 38) and never played more than 7 in any one season.

There is no comparison between those twos playoff prowess even if there stats are similar.

[BballTim]

He played 31 minutes total in 6 total games.  That is just plain silly talk.

It's the truth, is what it is. He was on the roster. T-Mac made it to the Finals, history will show it.

We all know he "made it to the finals." We all also know that he did nothing to get them their and anyone with a brain voting for the HOF would take that into account.

A great player that just had bad luck with teams and health. I'm not sure he's a HOF player however.

Clyde Drexler won a ring as a throw-in on the 95 Rockets team. Are you going to throw him out of the HoF because he "won a ring" the same way T-Mac "made it to the finals?"

Woah woah woah.  Apples and telephone poles.  Drexler was traded at the trade deadline, not signed the day before the last game.

 "In his third NBA Finals appearance, Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 9.5 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game." - wiki

10 time all star

Olympic gold when the dream team demolished the whole world.  TMac never played for the Olympic team.

Legendary college career including Southwest College POY and first team All- America


These two guys are about as different as you can get.

Ya I can't believe this is even a discussion.

If anything it's like saying Mitch Richmond should be in the HOF (which is debatable), but then arguing his credentials are that he won a championship in 2002.  The thing is he only played in 2 games for a total of 4 minutes!

When dealing with discussions, debates, etc., for the sake of brevity many things are left unsaid and simply implied because it is usually understood that all parties involved understand the minor details, disclaimers, and footnotes regarding the topic.  I thought everybody understood that when it's said "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round...", that what is really being said is "Tracy McGrady never made it past the first round on a team where he was a main contributor or even a regular rotation player.  Though he did make it to the Finals with San Antonio in 2013, he played in only 6 of the teams 21 playoff games (not even 2 rounds worth of playoff games),  was 12th on the team in minutes played, never scored a point, and only entered the game when the outcome was already decided, so most fans don't consider that relevant to the discussion since it is widely considered that he in no way contributed to San Antonio advancing past the first round or to the Finals."

See everything after, "never made it past the first round..." is usually believed to be understood and left out for brevity.

Right. So "won a ring..." [at thirty three on a different team while being the third option while the best player in the league was on baseball sabbatical] and "made the finals..." [after years of being denied any playoff success despite incredible individual numbers and a history of crippling injuries] both have significant if unspoken caveats. That's pretty obvious.

  Drexler led multiple teams to the finals before he got to Houston. And where are you getting this "third option" nonsense?

[D.o.s.]

Second option, sorry, mistyped.

Feel free to harp on the unimportant part of that post, though.