"Red should of traded Bird+Co early, thats why we stunk yrs after"? #35 content

[CoachBo]

The deaths were a huge, huge blow.  By many accounts, Bias would have been even better than Lewis (an elite, elite superstar--one of the best in the NBA).  Adding him to the '86 title team (going into the '86-87 season), would have potentially been something for the ages.  Imagine what adding another star player to what arguably is the greatest team of all time could have done.  One also has to wonder if the Big Three would have held up longer had Bias been around to lighten the load (like would McHale have pushed through that ankle injury?). 

Also, that Red story is clearly a bunch of B.S. and Danny know it too.  If he really believed that, the Big Three would have been traded years ago. 

First and foremost, even in the late '80s/very early '90s, the Big Three weren't that old and the Celtics were still pretty darn good.  You don't go and blow up a contender so you can maybe get another contender later. 

Second, who exactly would they have landed?  There were rumblings of them acquiring Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, and Chuck Persons.  All were certainly good NBA players.  But none of those guys were going to be the core of the next Celtic dynasty. 

Quite frankly, Red knew better than to trade one of the greatest players of all time for several good NBA players.  That never works out.  Look at what Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley netted their former teams.  And while his gamble to try to win one more with Larry towards the end of his career didn't pan out, it's the smarter move to go for the title when you still have a chance than to trade that away in hopes that you might eventually contend again.  Because in almost every single instance, the future reward doesn't work out. 

So I am quite happy with what Ainge has done at this point.  We almost won another title in 2010.  I think 2011 with a healthy Shaq was the most talented team of the new Big Three era.  And in 2012, we almost made it back to the Finals.  While it didn't pan out, when you have a team like that, you don't deal it away for hopes of what might happen in the future.

Exactly. Good post. TP.

People are SO fascinated with the "wing and a prayer" approach to rebuilding. The fascination is, well, fascinating.

[CelticG1]

The deaths were a huge, huge blow.  By many accounts, Bias would have been even better than Lewis (an elite, elite superstar--one of the best in the NBA).  Adding him to the '86 title team (going into the '86-87 season), would have potentially been something for the ages.  Imagine what adding another star player to what arguably is the greatest team of all time could have done.  One also has to wonder if the Big Three would have held up longer had Bias been around to lighten the load (like would McHale have pushed through that ankle injury?). 

Also, that Red story is clearly a bunch of B.S. and Danny know it too.  If he really believed that, the Big Three would have been traded years ago. 

First and foremost, even in the late '80s/very early '90s, the Big Three weren't that old and the Celtics were still pretty darn good.  You don't go and blow up a contender so you can maybe get another contender later. 

Second, who exactly would they have landed?  There were rumblings of them acquiring Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, and Chuck Persons.  All were certainly good NBA players.  But none of those guys were going to be the core of the next Celtic dynasty. 

Quite frankly, Red knew better than to trade one of the greatest players of all time for several good NBA players.  That never works out.  Look at what Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley netted their former teams.  And while his gamble to try to win one more with Larry towards the end of his career didn't pan out, it's the smarter move to go for the title when you still have a chance than to trade that away in hopes that you might eventually contend again.  Because in almost every single instance, the future reward doesn't work out. 

So I am quite happy with what Ainge has done at this point.  We almost won another title in 2010.  I think 2011 with a healthy Shaq was the most talented team of the new Big Three era.  And in 2012, we almost made it back to the Finals.  While it didn't pan out, when you have a team like that, you don't deal it away for hopes of what might happen in the future.

Pretty gosh darn good spot on post.

In hindsight its easy for Danny to say he would have made a trade (or would have taken Durant with the 2007 number 1 pick) but when its reality and you actually have to factor in 100's of things it becomes a little more complicated.

People wanted to link both these scenarios together desperately even though in reality there was very little in common.

[tyrone biggums]

The deaths were a huge, huge blow.  By many accounts, Bias would have been even better than Lewis (an elite, elite superstar--one of the best in the NBA).  Adding him to the '86 title team (going into the '86-87 season), would have potentially been something for the ages.  Imagine what adding another star player to what arguably is the greatest team of all time could have done.  One also has to wonder if the Big Three would have held up longer had Bias been around to lighten the load (like would McHale have pushed through that ankle injury?). 

Also, that Red story is clearly a bunch of B.S. and Danny know it too.  If he really believed that, the Big Three would have been traded years ago. 

First and foremost, even in the late '80s/very early '90s, the Big Three weren't that old and the Celtics were still pretty darn good.  You don't go and blow up a contender so you can maybe get another contender later. 

Second, who exactly would they have landed?  There were rumblings of them acquiring Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, and Chuck Persons.  All were certainly good NBA players.  But none of those guys were going to be the core of the next Celtic dynasty. 

Quite frankly, Red knew better than to trade one of the greatest players of all time for several good NBA players.  That never works out.  Look at what Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley netted their former teams.  And while his gamble to try to win one more with Larry towards the end of his career didn't pan out, it's the smarter move to go for the title when you still have a chance than to trade that away in hopes that you might eventually contend again.  Because in almost every single instance, the future reward doesn't work out. 

So I am quite happy with what Ainge has done at this point.  We almost won another title in 2010.  I think 2011 with a healthy Shaq was the most talented team of the new Big Three era.  And in 2012, we almost made it back to the Finals.  While it didn't pan out, when you have a team like that, you don't deal it away for hopes of what might happen in the future.

Pretty gosh darn good spot on post.

In hindsight its easy for Danny to say he would have made a trade (or would have taken Durant with the 2007 number 1 pick) but when its reality and you actually have to factor in 100's of things it becomes a little more complicated.

People wanted to link both these scenarios together desperately even though in reality there was very little in common.

Actually I believe even before the draft Danny mentioned that Durant was his choice. I remember he spent a ton of time scouting KD and sat next to his mom at a game. The reason why this team was terrible had nothing to do with Bird McHale and Parish and everything to do with inept management and ownership. Everyone that says fire this guy or that guy clearly doesn't remember the glory days of the late 90's

[guava_wrench]

Also aside from losing those 2 not getting any financial relief and continuing to be penalized after Reggies passing certainly added the insult to injury

this is another point that's often forgotten.  That ruling by the NBA screwed the C's for years after Reggie passed.  there was no logical or business excuse for it except an opportunity to screw over the Celtics organization

Yeah, the league wants to hurt your favorite team. The world is out to get you. Clearly, if something happens you don't like, the explanation must be a concerted effort to oppress you and yours.

Regarding the title of the OP, I thought I read somewhere that the comment about trading Bird & Co was something Red had actually said to Ainge.

[Q_FBE]

I agree wholeheartedly that losing Reggie Lewis and Len Bias set the franchise back for years but the root cause of the drought was Paul "Thanksdad" Ga$ton running the franchise into the ground by hiring More Losses Carr as the GM and not listening to Larry Bird. Go back and read the first two chapters of "On Playing and Coaching the Game I Love" written by Jackie Mac and of course Ole Larry himself. Basically, the five year tanking project to get Tim Duncan began after the 1992 basketball season. The last link to the dark ages was traded to Brooklyn last month. The dark ages ended when Pitino resigned and was a long slow painful 7 year climb back to the top of the NBA mountain.

[More Banners]

I agree wholeheartedly that losing Reggie Lewis and Len Bias set the franchise back for years but the root cause of the drought was Paul "Thanksdad" Ga$ton running the franchise into the ground by hiring More Losses Carr as the GM and not listening to Larry Bird. Go back and read the first two chapters of "On Playing and Coaching the Game I Love" written by Jackie Mac and of course Ole Larry himself. Basically, the five year tanking project to get Tim Duncan began after the 1992 basketball season. The last link to the dark ages was traded to Brooklyn last month. The dark ages ended when Pitino resigned and was a long slow painful 7 year climb back to the top of the NBA mountain.

Yeah, it really does take quite a few screw-ups to ruin a franchise, and quite a few lucky breaks to keep contending over and over (more than ever in the modern league).

Win-now panic moves killed us during the 09's, whether trading away young talent for vets (Pitino), or trading young talent for a veteran boost for one long-shot run (Wallace/JJohnson trade), it takes a big-picture, long-term view.  I think Danny has that, and ownership supports it.  It hasn't always been that way, obviously.

[Moranis]

Bias died in 1986.  Bird played his last game in 1992.  Just a silly argument to make.  Lewis was obviously different as he was just entering his prime, but Reggie Lewis was not ever going to be a franchise player.  He was very good and could have been a solid 2/3 type option, but no team with him as its best player was ever going to win a title.  Bird should have been traded some time during the 89-90 season or the 90-91 season (after he was back and healthy from his injured 88-89 season).  It was clear at that point Boston wasn't going to win a title with him as the focal point any more and he still would have had at least decent value in a trade.  The same is true of Parish and McHale as well (and they played a bit longer so you could have moved them a bit later). 

This is probably a bit earlier than I would have wanted to move these guys (especially Bird) but this is what Ainge said was on the table in 1988 (had to be 87-88 season since Stipanovich was in the deal).

Ainge said the Pacers wanted to acquire Bird in 1988 for a package that included Chuck Person, Herb Williams and Steve Stipanovich. Boston also could have moved McHale to the Mavericks for Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins, according to Ainge.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/01/25/celtics.notes/index.html#ixzz2aYJwxTwL

Not a huge fan of the Bird trade given this was before his last major injury, but Boston absolutely should have moved McHale in that trade.  Schrempf and Perkins paired with Reggie would have been a nice younger front line to build around and even by 87-88 McHale was fading.  That said I can get why you don't move them during the 87-88 season, but a year or two later, there really is no excuse.  They needed to be moved.  They were injured and far from the players they once were and both had a lot of value still to a contending team. 

[More Banners]

Bias died in 1986.  Bird played his last game in 1992.  Just a silly argument to make.  Lewis was obviously different as he was just entering his prime, but Reggie Lewis was not ever going to be a franchise player.  He was very good and could have been a solid 2/3 type option, but no team with him as its best player was ever going to win a title.  Bird should have been traded some time during the 89-90 season or the 90-91 season (after he was back and healthy from his injured 88-89 season).  It was clear at that point Boston wasn't going to win a title with him as the focal point any more and he still would have had at least decent value in a trade.  The same is true of Parish and McHale as well (and they played a bit longer so you could have moved them a bit later). 

This is probably a bit earlier than I would have wanted to move these guys (especially Bird) but this is what Ainge said was on the table in 1988 (had to be 87-88 season since Stipanovich was in the deal).

Ainge said the Pacers wanted to acquire Bird in 1988 for a package that included Chuck Person, Herb Williams and Steve Stipanovich. Boston also could have moved McHale to the Mavericks for Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins, according to Ainge.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/01/25/celtics.notes/index.html#ixzz2aYJwxTwL

Not a huge fan of the Bird trade given this was before his last major injury, but Boston absolutely should have moved McHale in that trade.  Schrempf and Perkins paired with Reggie would have been a nice younger front line to build around and even by 87-88 McHale was fading.  That said I can get why you don't move them during the 87-88 season, but a year or two later, there really is no excuse.  They needed to be moved.  They were injured and far from the players they once were and both had a lot of value still to a contending team.

You don't move them in '88 because they were in the Finals in '87, and were the best team ever in '86.

By '90 or '91, though, it was getting to be a team of hope and dreams, much like our last few seasons.  McHale and Bird each had their major injuries (foot/back) by then.  I don't think the deals that were available in '88 were available in '90-91.

At that point, is it worth trading them for miscellaneous pieces and picks, or maintaining the loyalty and legacy that matters so much still to Larry?

Oh, and continuing to sell out of season tickets, season after season...

[jaketwice]

Should'VE not "Should of". As in "Should have"?

...the latter incarnation makes zero sense.