WHY YOU NEED A TOP PICK TO COMPETE (hey, but only 33 out of 34x!!)

[EDWARDO]

Below is the list of the 25 greatest players of all time compiled by Bill Simmons. You may like him or hate him, but this list will likely very largely reflect most lists of the top players of all time. (i'm noticing its from 2010 as well, but I don't think much would change except for Lebron being much higher and perhaps Dirk N being on the list now as well.)


1   Michael Jordan      #3 overall and came out early
2   Bill Russell            #2 overall, only because St. Louis with #1 pick would not pay the upfront bonus he was asking for
3   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar    #1 overall
4   Magic Johnson        #1 overall
5   Larry Bird        #6 overall, but only because he was drafted a year early... would have been #1 or #2 overall with certainly the following year
6   Wilt Chamberlain   was a "territorial pick" so wasn't drafted, but came into the league and was the highest paid player as a rookie, so yeah, he would have been taken #1
7   Tim Duncan    #1 pick
8   Kobe Bryant    #13 overall, the first HS player to come out in 20yrs.. with Kobe and KG the following year, its clear teams were not valuing HS players correctly... this quickly changed though
9   Jerry West        #2 overall because the next guy was #1 overall
10   Oscar Robertson  #1 overall
11   Hakeem Olajuwon   #1 overall
12   Shaquille O'Neal      #1 overall
13   Moses Malone direct from HS free agent
14   John Havlicek  #7 overall in 1962
15   Elgin Baylor   #1 overall
16   Julius Erving  went to ABA as a free agent...
17   Bob Pettit   #2 overall
18   Karl Malone lucky #13 again!!
19   Charles Barkley       #5 overall
20   LeBron James   #1 overall
21   Bob Cousy   #3 overall
22   Kevin Garnett   #5 overall
23   Isiah Thomas   #2 overall
24   Scottie Pippen   #5 overall
25   John Stockton   #16

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title? I mean, can you now honestly think that we can round up 7-8 Jared Sullingers and Kelly Olynyks and compete for a title? You HAVE to have one of these guys to have a serious chance to win a title.

Most of the titles were won by #1 overall picks. Most of the others were won by players who WOULD have been #1/2 overall picks under different circumstances - Bird drafted after his junior year, Kobe and KG drafted as first HS players, Jordan came out early and was stuck behind Hakeem, Dr J as a free agent.

Are there seriously people arguing that the draft is a complete crap shoot? Its certainly no guarantee, and as I've said having A #1 pick does not a title contender make (exhibit A - Anthony Bennett!). BUT have a top pick when a GREAT player is there can make you a contender for 15 years. This appears to be one of those years.

[Monkhouse]

While I agree, the difference is this draft like 2004 is extremely loaded. Even picking from the top 10 could net us a superstar or a great franchise player.

Preferably, I wish there was a way we could somehow get two top picks, like 3/5 ^^, to grab Parker, and either Smart or the brothers.

Wiggins to me seems like the smaller version of Lebron James, but Parker to me in my opinion reminds me of a Pierce/Carmelo combo. And in the end, is almost impossible to defend when he's hot or going for the clutch shot.

Thing about the draft picks is, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, etc. Were all picked after the top 10, or on the 10th pick, in your list the only exception is John Stockton, and a select few. I do agree PG is still a lottery pick, most picks after 10 aren't deemed superstars. The general consensus is the higher the pick, the better the player, which isn't always true, but I mean luck plays a huge role. Oden is a huge bust, and is still injury prone until proven other wise.

You can definitely build Paul George, Hibbert, TP3, Rondo, etc as your franchise players. You just need above average role players who can really step up, and take over the game.

Heck, Pierce was #10. And he's definitely a franchise player anyone can build around. The point of the draft is yeah the 1# pick is nice to have, and usually means the player will be the best one. But there have been too many busts to even say top 5 pick is always dominant.

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.

[Boris Badenov]

As others have pointed out, needing a great player and needing a top pick can be different things.

Some of the players on that list won titles with teams other than the ones that drafted them...including our own KG. We didn't need a top pick to get him.

I am in favor of getting a high pick in this draft - or trying to, anyway - for what that's worth.

But there are many ways to skin a cat, and if we end up with #6 or #8 this year that doesn't mean we have no chance of turning that asset into a piece of a championship team.

[LooseCannon]

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title?

If you absolutely needed a top 25 player of all time to win a title, 30 of the last 30 titles would have been led by players on that list.

[BballTim]

Below is the list of the 25 greatest players of all time compiled by Bill Simmons. You may like him or hate him, but this list will likely very largely reflect most lists of the top players of all time. (i'm noticing its from 2010 as well, but I don't think much would change except for Lebron being much higher and perhaps Dirk N being on the list now as well.)


1   Michael Jordan      #3 overall and came out early
2   Bill Russell            #2 overall, only because St. Louis with #1 pick would not pay the upfront bonus he was asking for
3   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar    #1 overall
4   Magic Johnson        #1 overall
5   Larry Bird        #6 overall, but only because he was drafted a year early... would have been #1 or #2 overall with certainly the following year
6   Wilt Chamberlain   was a "territorial pick" so wasn't drafted, but came into the league and was the highest paid player as a rookie, so yeah, he would have been taken #1
7   Tim Duncan    #1 pick
8   Kobe Bryant    #13 overall, the first HS player to come out in 20yrs.. with Kobe and KG the following year, its clear teams were not valuing HS players correctly... this quickly changed though
9   Jerry West        #2 overall because the next guy was #1 overall
10   Oscar Robertson  #1 overall
11   Hakeem Olajuwon   #1 overall
12   Shaquille O'Neal      #1 overall
13   Moses Malone direct from HS free agent
14   John Havlicek  #7 overall in 1962
15   Elgin Baylor   #1 overall
16   Julius Erving  went to ABA as a free agent...
17   Bob Pettit   #2 overall
18   Karl Malone lucky #13 again!!
19   Charles Barkley       #5 overall
20   LeBron James   #1 overall
21   Bob Cousy   #3 overall
22   Kevin Garnett   #5 overall
23   Isiah Thomas   #2 overall
24   Scottie Pippen   #5 overall
25   John Stockton   #16

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title? I mean, can you now honestly think that we can round up 7-8 Jared Sullingers and Kelly Olynyks and compete for a title? You HAVE to have one of these guys to have a serious chance to win a title.

Most of the titles were won by #1 overall picks. Most of the others were won by players who WOULD have been #1/2 overall picks under different circumstances - Bird drafted after his junior year, Kobe and KG drafted as first HS players, Jordan came out early and was stuck behind Hakeem, Dr J as a free agent.

Are there seriously people arguing that the draft is a complete crap shoot? Its certainly no guarantee, and as I've said having A #1 pick does not a title contender make (exhibit A - Anthony Bennett!). BUT have a top pick when a GREAT player is there can make you a contender for 15 years. This appears to be one of those years.

  If we tank like people want we'll probably end up with a 10% chance at that top pick, and probably be bad for a long time without him.

  By the way, I might have missed someone, but it looks like Duncan was the last #1 pick to win a title for the team who drafted him. That's pretty sobering.

[ram]

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.
-----------------------------------
We kept him...
in a box.

[tyrone biggums]

Below is the list of the 25 greatest players of all time compiled by Bill Simmons. You may like him or hate him, but this list will likely very largely reflect most lists of the top players of all time. (i'm noticing its from 2010 as well, but I don't think much would change except for Lebron being much higher and perhaps Dirk N being on the list now as well.)


1   Michael Jordan      #3 overall and came out early
2   Bill Russell            #2 overall, only because St. Louis with #1 pick would not pay the upfront bonus he was asking for
3   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar    #1 overall
4   Magic Johnson        #1 overall
5   Larry Bird        #6 overall, but only because he was drafted a year early... would have been #1 or #2 overall with certainly the following year
6   Wilt Chamberlain   was a "territorial pick" so wasn't drafted, but came into the league and was the highest paid player as a rookie, so yeah, he would have been taken #1
7   Tim Duncan    #1 pick
8   Kobe Bryant    #13 overall, the first HS player to come out in 20yrs.. with Kobe and KG the following year, its clear teams were not valuing HS players correctly... this quickly changed though
9   Jerry West        #2 overall because the next guy was #1 overall
10   Oscar Robertson  #1 overall
11   Hakeem Olajuwon   #1 overall
12   Shaquille O'Neal      #1 overall
13   Moses Malone direct from HS free agent
14   John Havlicek  #7 overall in 1962
15   Elgin Baylor   #1 overall
16   Julius Erving  went to ABA as a free agent...
17   Bob Pettit   #2 overall
18   Karl Malone lucky #13 again!!
19   Charles Barkley       #5 overall
20   LeBron James   #1 overall
21   Bob Cousy   #3 overall
22   Kevin Garnett   #5 overall
23   Isiah Thomas   #2 overall
24   Scottie Pippen   #5 overall
25   John Stockton   #16

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title? I mean, can you now honestly think that we can round up 7-8 Jared Sullingers and Kelly Olynyks and compete for a title? You HAVE to have one of these guys to have a serious chance to win a title.

Most of the titles were won by #1 overall picks. Most of the others were won by players who WOULD have been #1/2 overall picks under different circumstances - Bird drafted after his junior year, Kobe and KG drafted as first HS players, Jordan came out early and was stuck behind Hakeem, Dr J as a free agent.

Are there seriously people arguing that the draft is a complete crap shoot? Its certainly no guarantee, and as I've said having A #1 pick does not a title contender make (exhibit A - Anthony Bennett!). BUT have a top pick when a GREAT player is there can make you a contender for 15 years. This appears to be one of those years.

No one is disputing that you need a top player. It's all about how you get those players. The draft IS NOT the only way. Tanking isn't the ONLY way. Look at guys like KG and LeBron they never won on their original teams. Barkley's best shots came after Philly. Look at Iverson, #1 pick great player no title. Howard #1 pick NO TITLE. There are more top picks without titles that there are ones who got them. You need to build a team with a great player and equally good supporting parts. Pippen would never have won a title on his own for example because he was a supporting piece to Jordan. Likewise Bird never would have won a title if the Celtics weren't loaded with talent. Some top picks include Brad Dougherty, Kandiman, Bargnani, etc...these guys have dominated HS competition that will be in the 2014 draft. You do not have really anyone in the conversation that is an established college player. If you look at those #1 picks how many jumped directly from High School to the pros all time.

[Monkhouse]

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.
-----------------------------------
We kept him...
in a box.

I don't get what your post means... But if you meant that as a sad statement, or a funny comment, neither of them were needed. It was a very sad for the Celtics when he died of cocaine overdose. The only silver lining is due to his death, it sparked the NBAs strictly regulated supervision of drugs.

[bdm860]

Drafting one of those players is only half the problem, keeping them is the other half.

Just ask Milwaukee (Kareem), Cleveland (LeBron), Orlando (Shaq), Utah (Moses), Cincinnati (Robertson), Virginia (Erving), Minnesota (Garnet), Philadelphia (Chamberlain) how well drafting those players worked out for them.

[manl_lui]

While I agree, the difference is this draft like 2004 is extremely loaded. Even picking from the top 10 could net us a superstar or a great franchise player.

Preferably, I wish there was a way we could somehow get two top picks, like 3/5 ^^, to grab Parker, and either Smart or the brothers.

Wiggins to me seems like the smaller version of Lebron James, but Parker to me in my opinion reminds me of a Pierce/Carmelo combo. And in the end, is almost impossible to defend when he's hot or going for the clutch shot.

Thing about the draft picks is, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, etc. Were all picked after the top 10, or on the 10th pick, in your list the only exception is John Stockton, and a select few. I do agree PG is still a lottery pick, most picks after 10 aren't deemed superstars. The general consensus is the higher the pick, the better the player, which isn't always true, but I mean luck plays a huge role. Oden is a huge bust, and is still injury prone until proven other wise.

You can definitely build Paul George, Hibbert, TP3, Rondo, etc as your franchise players. You just need above average role players who can really step up, and take over the game.

Heck, Pierce was #10. And he's definitely a franchise player anyone can build around. The point of the draft is yeah the 1# pick is nice to have, and usually means the player will be the best one. But there have been too many busts to even say top 5 pick is always dominant.

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.

if we get 2 top picks next year my pick goes to Jabari Parker/Wiggins (whoever is available) and Aaron Gordon

and it's not about keeping Bias, Bias died...there was nothing the Cs could do to keep him alive. Dude decided to do what he was doing and paid the ultimate price for it

I do agree if he were alive and the Big 3 didn't retire (With Lewis) we probably and will win 2-3 more titles

[sed522002]

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title?

I don't think anyone is really arguing that. It's really more about the acquisition of said players. I'm more interested in the top players that were drafted high and won with the team that drafted them (I'm sure someone has a list).

[EDWARDO]

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title?

If you absolutely needed a top 25 player of all time to win a title, 30 of the last 30 titles would have been led by players on that list.

God, its getting a bit ridiculous though isn't it? How about this? Dirk is now in the top 25 and the guys on that list goes back to 1980, I think.

So in 33 of 34 years, you need a top 25 player of all-time, does that suit you? Have we split enough hairs for you?

[ram]

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.
-----------------------------------
We kept him...
in a box.

I don't get what your post means..
--------------------
It means: This is what happened. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[EDWARDO]

28 of the last 30 titles were led by players on this list.

Are still going to argue that you don't need a top 25 player of all time to win a title?

If you absolutely needed a top 25 player of all time to win a title, 30 of the last 30 titles would have been led by players on that list.

God, its getting a bit ridiculous though isn't it? How about this? Dirk is now in the top 25 and the guys on that list goes back to 1980, I think.

So in 33 of 34 years, you need a top 25 player of all-time, does that suit you? Have we split enough hairs for you?

I've even modified the title to reflect your "logic".

[Monkhouse]

While I agree, the difference is this draft like 2004 is extremely loaded. Even picking from the top 10 could net us a superstar or a great franchise player.

Preferably, I wish there was a way we could somehow get two top picks, like 3/5 ^^, to grab Parker, and either Smart or the brothers.

Wiggins to me seems like the smaller version of Lebron James, but Parker to me in my opinion reminds me of a Pierce/Carmelo combo. And in the end, is almost impossible to defend when he's hot or going for the clutch shot.

Thing about the draft picks is, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, etc. Were all picked after the top 10, or on the 10th pick, in your list the only exception is John Stockton, and a select few. I do agree PG is still a lottery pick, most picks after 10 aren't deemed superstars. The general consensus is the higher the pick, the better the player, which isn't always true, but I mean luck plays a huge role. Oden is a huge bust, and is still injury prone until proven other wise.

You can definitely build Paul George, Hibbert, TP3, Rondo, etc as your franchise players. You just need above average role players who can really step up, and take over the game.

Heck, Pierce was #10. And he's definitely a franchise player anyone can build around. The point of the draft is yeah the 1# pick is nice to have, and usually means the player will be the best one. But there have been too many busts to even say top 5 pick is always dominant.

Honestly, if we have had kept Bias, I think the Celtics could've won 2-3 more banners easily.

if we get 2 top picks next year my pick goes to Jabari Parker/Wiggins (whoever is available) and Aaron Gordon

and it's not about keeping Bias, Bias died...there was nothing the Cs could do to keep him alive. Dude decided to do what he was doing and paid the ultimate price for it

I do agree if he were alive and the Big 3 didn't retire (With Lewis) we probably and will win 2-3 more titles

Don't want Gordon, I don't think his game could be as good as Parker or Wiggins. I'd like to get Parker above Wiggins, and if we had another top pick I'd use it on Smart. He was very great, and showed leadership in the USA games.

As for Bias, I don't know what else to say honestly. I wish he hadn't done the drugs, but whats done is done.

I think you don't need a top 10 pick to really have a franchise player, but it'll help definitely.