All these mediocre teams signing mediocre free agents=Celtics 2014 lottery gold.

[Yogi]

There's a difference between the regular season and the postseason. Again, Green shoots a miserable .399 in the postseason.

1. Considering you are arguing that the Celtics won't even make the playoffs... why would this even matter? 
2. I guess you are not counting the fact that he put up 20ppg on a TS 58% and a eFG 50%.  Paul Pierce put up 19ppg on 48% and 42% for comparison. 

[sdceltsfan]

Celtics will not be in the lottery next season.  They are a 6th seed at worst as it stands now.

The sexy lady in the picture says it all!

Our best "shooters" are Marshon Brooks, Jeff Green, and Courtney Lee

Our best "post-scorer" is Jared Sullinger, who has half a season under his belt

Our best "interior defender" is.....well nobody. Gerald Wallace I guess??

We have one truly dynamic player in Rondo, who will be missing at least the 1st half of the season.

How does this team win 15 games by the All-Star break, let alone be considered a 6th seed???

We could be the worst scoring team in the league. We could also allow the most points in the paint. This does not bode well for the win column, my optimistic friends.

[rondoallaturca]

1. Why did you start your argument around lineups playing at least 100 min only to proceed on using 4 of 5 lineups that did NOT play 100 mins? Furthermore, I don't think you exactly understand the extent of how vulnerable our defense is when our some of our major frontcourt contributors include Sullinger, Olynyk, and Humphries right now.

2. Did you watch that 44-game against Miami? Did you watch the complete lack of adjustments Miami made to guard Green? They allowed Green to drive in right all night long. I certainly desire more evidence because what you showed me proves nothing.

3. I can't believe I actually need to list out players. Remember Kevin Martin on the Kings? Poor defender, poor passer, but phenomenally efficient offensive player. He was putting up 20-point games with regularity. Al Jefferson? Even better example. Again, poor defender, poor passer, but efficient offensive player. He was raking double-doubles in Minnesota before getting traded to a better Jazz team. I'm going to stop here before dedicating the majority of the post explaining something so silly.

4. "Recent" all-star? Sure, 3 years isn't too far back. But 2010 was the same ASG that featured guys like Iverson (yes, Allen Iverson), Billups, and Kaman. Good job pointing out his hustle, energy, and athleticism as what made him a great player, because guess what? Athleticism is the first thing to go when NBA players age. Hustle and energy are nice, but Lou Amundson's, Jon Brockman's, and Tyler Hansborough's aren't so much.

5. So you're telling me right now that Kelly Olynyk, the 7 footer from Gonzaga drafted at #13 by the Boston Celtics, will legitimately improve this Boston Celtics squad's win-loss record by so much that we'll be at risk of missing a high lottery pick in the 2014 draft? Hell, Kyrie Irving turned a .232 team into a .318 team in his rookie season. However, that .318 came in a lockout season where a lot of bad teams had a better-than-expected record due to lack of preparedness. In his 2nd year, Kyrie's Cavaliers finished at .293. In other words, the Cavaliers gained a whopping 5 wins over those two years. Unless you're suggesting Olynyk is as good as Kyrie (and maybe even better?), I don't see how he can be a valid argument.

[Yogi]

1. Why did you start your argument around lineups playing at least 100 min only to proceed on using 4 of 5 lineups that did NOT play 100 mins? Furthermore, I don't think you exactly understand the extent of how vulnerable our defense is when our some of our major frontcourt contributors include Sullinger, Olynyk, and Humphries right now.

2. Did you watch that 44-game against Miami? Did you watch the complete lack of adjustments Miami made to guard Green? They allowed Green to drive in right all night long. I certainly desire more evidence because what you showed me proves nothing.

3. I can't believe I actually need to list out players. Remember Kevin Martin on the Kings? Poor defender, poor passer, but phenomenally efficient offensive player. He was putting up 20-point games with regularity. Al Jefferson? Even better example. Again, poor defender, poor passer, but efficient offensive player. He was raking double-doubles in Minnesota before getting traded to a better Jazz team. I'm going to stop here before dedicating the majority of the post explaining something so silly.

4. "Recent" all-star? Sure, 3 years isn't too far back. But 2010 was the same ASG that featured guys like Iverson (yes, Allen Iverson), Billups, and Kaman. Good job pointing out his hustle, energy, and athleticism as what made him a great player, because guess what? Athleticism is the first thing to go when NBA players age. Hustle and energy are nice, but Lou Amundson's, Jon Brockman's, and Tyler Hansborough's aren't so much.

5. So you're telling me right now that Kelly Olynyk, the 7 footer from Gonzaga drafted at #13 by the Boston Celtics, will legitimately improve this Boston Celtics squad's win-loss record by so much that we'll be at risk of missing a high lottery pick in the 2014 draft? Hell, Kyrie Irving turned a .232 team into a .318 team in his rookie season. However, that .318 came in a lockout season where a lot of bad teams had a better-than-expected record due to lack of preparedness. In his 2nd year, Kyrie's Cavaliers finished at .293. In other words, the Cavaliers gained a whopping 5 wins over those two years. Unless you're suggesting Olynyk is as good as Kyrie (and maybe even better?), I don't see how he can be a valid argument.

1. There aren't many lineups that played over 100 min.  The fact that there are so many line ups without KG that played great defense is more than sufficient to refute your point that we cannot play great defense without KG.  However, the line up I presented was the best defensive line-up that played over a 100 min, including the ones with KG. 

2.  Miami, the two time defending champions who were desperately trying to win that game to keep their streak going made no adjustments?  If you are simply going to randomly make up things without any sort of evidence then rational discussion is impossible.  Some one else had posted more evidence about Jeff Green's efficiency against the leagues defenses.

3.  Congratulations.  (I forgot we were initially talking about Sullinger here)  If Jared Sullinger became Al Jefferson how can we be bad??  This is the same Al Jefferson who is making 14 mil a year and somehow makes the Bobcats better than the Celtics. 

4. 30 year olds are no longer athletic now?  I suggest you watch a highlight reel of Wallace from last season before making nonsensical claims. 

5.  Yes.  This might be a difficult concept, but good basketball players tend to help their teams win more games.  Is he enough by himself to add 20 wins to the Celtics?  Of course not.  No one would make that claim.  Great usage of the straw man fallacy.  Jared Sullinger had a WS/48 of 0.146.  That is 12 wins per 82 games and 9 wins at 36min a game for 82 games.  Considering Sullinger was only the 21st pick and Olynyk was the 13th pick, it is not unreasonable to conclude that he will help us win games.  As far as the Cavaliers, what you say is only true if you completely ignore all injuries and roster turnover. 

[rondoallaturca]

1. That's because lineups without KG generally face the other team's weaker second unit. The C's were -130 when KG was off the court, and posted an awful 104.6 defensive rating. The C's were +112 when KG was on the court, and their defensive rating skyrocketed to 96.2.

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rsy_bfaZ_I

Watch this video of his 43-point game and tell me how many times he drives right as opposed to left. Yeah, I'm sure making up things 

3. See point #1. We have a lot of great on-ball defenders. Bradley is undeniably one of them. Green is getting there. Rondo can be a lockdown force when he wants to. Sully is pretty impressive for his physique. That doesn't necessarily translate into team success on that end though. Furthermore, when did I ever compare Sully to Al Jefferson? You asked me for examples of efficient players who posted monster stats on bad teams. I mean, I have no idea how you draw the conclusion that I think Sully will be Al Jeff. I mean, does that mean I think Brooks will be Kevin Martin, too?

4. Okay, now after I watch a highlight video of Wallace's from last year, how about you watch a highlight video of Wallace's from his Charlotte days?

5. 20 wins -> straw man fallacy? Way to shove words into my mouth. And WS/48 is an awful reasoning to base your argument off of. Chris Wilcox had a win share of .181. Are you seriously going to say that Wilcox will single-handedly improve a team's record by 15 whopping games? Again, the Cavs did not make a rapid ascension after they got Kyrie. The Nets remained a bottom 5 team in the NBA even after getting Deron for a full season (and that season was the lockout season, mind you). Unless the Dirk Nowitzki comparisons are true, there is absolutely no way Olynyk impacts this team significantly enough to bring it closer to playoff contention.

[lightspeed5]

Celtics will not be in the lottery next season.  They are a 6th seed at worst as it stands now.

The sexy lady in the picture says it all!

Our best "shooters" are Marshon Brooks, Jeff Green, and Courtney Lee

Our best "post-scorer" is Jared Sullinger, who has half a season under his belt

Our best "interior defender" is.....well nobody. Gerald Wallace I guess??

We have one truly dynamic player in Rondo, who will be missing at least the 1st half of the season.

How does this team win 15 games by the All-Star break, let alone be considered a 6th seed???

We could be the worst scoring team in the league. We could also allow the most points in the paint. This does not bode well for the win column, my optimistic friends.

even if olynk was tim duncan, we still wouldnt make the playoffs

[Yogi]

1. That's because lineups without KG generally face the other team's weaker second unit. The C's were -130 when KG was off the court, and posted an awful 104.6 defensive rating. The C's were +112 when KG was on the court, and their defensive rating skyrocketed to 96.2.

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rsy_bfaZ_I

Watch this video of his 43-point game and tell me how many times he drives right as opposed to left. Yeah, I'm sure making up things 

3. See point #1. We have a lot of great on-ball defenders. Bradley is undeniably one of them. Green is getting there. Rondo can be a lockdown force when he wants to. Sully is pretty impressive for his physique. That doesn't necessarily translate into team success on that end though.

4. Okay, now after I watch a highlight video of Wallace's from last year, how about you watch a highlight video of Wallace's from his Charlotte days?

5. 20 wins -> straw man fallacy? Way to shove words into my mouth. And WS/48 is an awful reasoning to base your argument off of. Chris Wilcox had a win share of .181. Are you seriously going to say that Wilcox will single-handedly improve a team's record by 15 whopping games? Again, the Cavs did not make a rapid ascension after they got Kyrie. The Nets remained a bottom 5 team in the NBA even after getting Deron for a full season (and that season was the lockout season, mind you). Unless the Dirk Nowitzki comparisons are true, there is absolutely no way Olynyk impacts this team significantly enough to bring it closer to playoff contention.

1.  Yes when KG was sitting and we were playing our horrible bench our defense was terrible.  However, when we play our starters without KG, which we didn't do often, we are actually a pretty good defensive team.

2.  Posting a video of Jeff Green scoring 43 points on 14/21 shooting against the two time defending champs will NEVER convince ANYONE that Jeff Green is an inefficient scorer.  Especially going against arguably the best defensive wing in the league. 

3.  When you put great individual defenders on a good defensive scheme, you get a good defense.  That is what we will have next year. 

4.  Looks the same.  Lot's of dunks.

5.  The fact that you brought up Wilcox demonstrates how desperate your position is.  Wilcox literally posted the best win share of his career on 13 min a game.  That is the definition of statistical anomaly.  His career win share/48 is 1.03.  That translates to a little over 6 wins if he played 36 min a game.  Sounds about right no?

[rondoallaturca]

1. Okay, and? You admit those lineups weren't used often, so it's a very small sample size that isn't reliable. There's just no way getting around the fact that without KG, this team is significantly worse. I showed you the numbers that proved it, and you did nothing to make me think otherwise.

2. Why are you changing the argument? You specifically said a rational discussion is impossible because I'm making things up. I show you a video that clearly shows Green driving right significantly more than left consistently throughout the whole game, with the Heat making no adjustments whatsoever, and suddenly you spin that against me pretending I was using it as an example to prove his inefficiency? Who's truly making a rational discussion difficult?

3. Obviously, the jury is out on that one. I'm not going to disagree. However, a defense can only get so far when your frontcourt is consisting of Sully, Olynyk, Bass, and Humphries. To say that they will be defensive capable enough to the extent that it pushes this team into possible playoff contention is a very bold prediction.

4. ...That's the takeaway you get from the highlight videos? A lot of dunks? Are we having a serious debate or not? You're not going to comment on how much more Wallace stays around on the perimeter in Brooklyn? How he opts to go with finesse and lay it up more rather than charging into the teeth of the defense for a dunk? How Crash doesn't look to "crash" as often anymore?

5. And Jeff Green's career win share is .076. With those numbers, are you going to say Chris Wilcox impacts a team more than Jeff Green does? I don't think I'm desperate at all. You're throwing me way too many flawed arguments for me to even approach desperation in this debate.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Longest, most detailed argument I've seen here.

Wish I could watch video of you hammering out these replies to one another

[Yogi]

1. Okay, and? You admit those lineups weren't used often, so it's a very small sample size that isn't reliable. There's just no way getting around the fact that without KG, this team is significantly worse. I showed you the numbers that proved it, and you did nothing to make me think otherwise.

2. Why are you changing the argument? You specifically said a rational discussion is impossible because I'm making things up. I show you a video that clearly shows Green driving right significantly more than left consistently throughout the whole game, with the Heat making no adjustments whatsoever, and suddenly you spin that against me pretending I was using it as an example to prove his inefficiency? Who's truly making a rational discussion difficult?

3. Obviously, the jury is out on that one. I'm not going to disagree. However, a defense can only get so far when your frontcourt is consisting of Sully, Olynyk, Bass, and Humphries. To say that they will be defensive capable enough to the extent that it pushes this team into possible playoff contention is a very bold prediction.

4. ...That's the takeaway you get from the highlight videos? A lot of dunks? Are we having a serious debate or not? You're not going to comment on how much more Wallace stays around on the perimeter in Brooklyn? How he opts to go with finesse and lay it up more rather than charging into the teeth of the defense for a dunk? How Crash doesn't look to "crash" as often anymore?

5. And Jeff Green's career win share is .076. With those numbers, are you going to say Chris Wilcox impacts a team more than Jeff Green does? I don't think I'm desperate at all. You're throwing me way too many flawed arguments for me to even approach desperation in this debate.

1.  Those line-ups were not used often, but again there is plenty of evidence of MULTIPLE line ups without KG that were extremely successful.  KG has a great plus minus because he is a great player.  There is 0 evidence that we can't be a good defensive team without KG.  Certainly not lottery worthy as you claim. 

2.  Honestly, this video is supposed to be evidence of Miami not making adjustments?  That is ridiculous.  The only thing the video proves is that despite Miami's efforts, Jeff Green scored 43 points in an extremely efficient way.  Anything else is pure unsupported speculation. 

3. 
a. There is no requirement that you need a shot blocker to make the playoffs.  You don't even need to play good defense to make the playoffs.  There are plenty of bad defensive teams that make the playoffs every year. 
b. There is no reason to expect Sullinger, Olynyk, Bass, Wallace to play poor defense.  They are all solid defenders. 

4.  That is a great subjective perspective you have there.  I don't see that at all.  Even if that were to be the case:
a.  He was a small forward in Brooklyn not a power forward.
b.  He was injured which might have limited his aggressiveness. 
c.  If you read the season review from the Brooklyn blog, the fans actually say he STOPPED playing in the perimeter because of his shooting slump.  They were asking him to take MORE jump shots.  Quite the opposite of what you claim here. 

Jeff Green's career WS/48, once you remove his outlier rookie year, is much closer to .1.  Considering
a.  He was playing out of position
b.  He was traded mid season
c.  He had a heart surgery
d.  He is still improving
e.  Plays a lot more minutes than Chris Wilcox
I would say the numbers are very accurate.  WS/48 are if the production can be sustained for 48 minutes.  Jeff Green had always played a ton of minutes his career while Wilcox has been an energy guy for much of his career. 

[rondoallaturca]

1. I'm sorry, how can you say there's 0 evidence when I have concrete numbers that show QUITE a significant difference between KG on/off the court. Yes, there may be "multiple" lineups without KG that were successful, but how many total minutes did they play? They could've been totally situational lineups that played for a measly 5 minutes against a certain assembled team. Maybe the opponent went really small and Doc opted to go with a Green/Sully frontcourt (which I do recall happening). Look, I'm not going to discount the defense of the players we have. But we lost one of the best defensive anchors in the league and we haven't replaced him with anyone even remotely comparable. Numbers don't lie. I wish I could be blindly optimistic like you, but there's far more evidence supporting my belief than yours.

2. You call it ridiculous when I say the video shows Miami not making adjustments, even though Miami clearly continued to let Green driving right? If you think that's "pure unsupported speculation", I don't know what else to say. Either you're in denial and are ignoring the blatantly obvious proof shown in the video, or you simply do not understand basketball and lack any credibility to continue a debate like this.

3. It's true you don't even need to play good defense to make the playoffs. You just won't go anywhere. Look at the top 4 teams last year. Spurs had Duncan & Splitter. Pacers had West & Hibbert. Grizzlies had Randolph & Gasol. Miami is the only team to not have a legitimate interior presence, but at the same time, they're blessed with one of the greatest players of all time. Also, to repeat what I have already said before, I don't disagree that Sully, Bass, and Wallace don't play solid defense. I just highly doubt their ability to play defense to a level that actually makes us a competent defensive team as a whole. Furthermore, Olynyk hasn't played a single NBA game in his life. I'm not going to call him a good/bad defender because of that, but it's extremely ignorant of you to call him a solid defender when defense is one of his biggest question marks entering the pros.

4. Let's look at all your points here.
a) Ok, I totally understand why Wallace's production would dip as SF rather than PF. But look at our roster. How many PFs do we have? How many SFs do we have? Is Wallace really going to be playing that many more minutes at PF this year?
b) Story of Wallace's career. He has never played a complete 82-game season, ever. He's never topped 76 games, and that was in his career year with Charlotte in 09-10. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that Wallace will actually be injury-free for once this year, but I'll gladly bet against that every day of the week.
c) Umm, what claim exactly would that be the opposite of? I don't see any point in my previous post stating that Wallace should shoot less. So, since you were so adamant yet so wrong about me "making stuff up" earlier, I'll call you out for making stuff up now.

5. Okay, so it's much closer to 1. You looked up Wilcox's career WS, and his was also pretty darn close to 1. You also added that Green is a workhorse while Wilcox plays sporadic energy-filled minutes. Thanks, I think you just argued my point for me. You just showed why win shares is a horrible stat to use in determining a player's impact to his team.

[LilRip]

Celtics will not be in the lottery next season.  They are a 6th seed at worst as it stands now.

The sexy lady in the picture says it all!

Our best "shooters" are Marshon Brooks, Jeff Green, and Courtney Lee

Our best "post-scorer" is Jared Sullinger, who has half a season under his belt

Our best "interior defender" is.....well nobody. Gerald Wallace I guess??

We have one truly dynamic player in Rondo, who will be missing at least the 1st half of the season.

How does this team win 15 games by the All-Star break, let alone be considered a 6th seed???

We could be the worst scoring team in the league. We could also allow the most points in the paint. This does not bode well for the win column, my optimistic friends.

even if olynk was tim duncan, we still wouldnt make the playoffs

i think we'd make the playoffs. of course, i'm certain there's quite a disparity between Kelly Olynyk and a guy who's in conversation to be the best PF of all time

[Yogi]

1.  The point you are making is "We are a terrible defensive team without KG."  not "KG is a great defensive player."  KG's +/- demonstrates the latter, but does not prove the former.  As evidence I presented multiple lineups that played significant minutes that were excellent defensively.  We are worse without KG because we have not had a great bench thanks to injuries for the last few years.  Not because we don't have 5 players that can play great defense without KG. 

2.  Again what are you talking about?  What adjustments can Miami make?  Jeff Green is extremely versatile and athletic.  Miami obviously tried many different things, but Green managed to score anyway.  I don't know what kind of delusion it is to think that a coach and the MVP are sitting around not making any adjustments on a nationally televised game against a conference rival.  If anything the video shows that Green was able to score no matter what adjustments Miami made. 

3. We are not talking about winning a championship.  We are talking about making the playoffs.  Therefore I have no clue what the Spurs, Pacers, Grizzlies etc. have to do with this discussion. 

Olynyk's defense is a concern for who?  I don't care about lazy reporters who project him as a defender based on his physical profile.  I thought Sullinger would have already proved those people wrong.  I watched his games and I analyzed his numbers.  While he probably won't make all NBA defensive teams, I have no concerns about his ability to play defense.  He has excellent mobility, understands rotations perfectly and puts 100% effort. 

4.  Wallace is an elite bench player.  He hustles hard, he plays with a lot of energy and he is very, very athletic.  There are very few guys of his caliber coming off the bench for contenders, let alone teams trying to make the playoffs. 

You stated Wallace played more in the perimeter according to your subjective interpretation of the highlight videos of Charlotte and Brooklyn.  That is the opposite of reality.  I am not putting any words in your mouth.  You just happened to be wrong. 

5.  Taken at face value all stats are useless.  You have to interpret them.  WS/48 are not an inherently "horrible" stat.  What is lacking is your ability to interpret the information correctly. 

[GreenEnvy]

I wonder how long it will take people on here to figure out we do not have a good roster.

When we are 2-8? 5-15? 12-29?

Rookie coach. Garbage roster.

Plenty of disappointment lies ahead with some people not only thinking we can make playoffs, but it would be good for the franchise if we did. We are not the Bobcats. A playoff berth followed by a prompt exit is not encouraging, it is an embarrassment.

Ainge wants to plan for the future? He can't stop with the Brooklyn trade.

[LilRip]

I wonder how long it will take people on here to figure out we do not have a good roster.

When we are 2-8? 5-15? 12-29?

Rookie coach. Garbage roster.

Plenty of disappointment lies ahead with some people not only thinking we can make playoffs, but it would be good for the franchise if we did. We are not the Bobcats. A playoff berth followed by a prompt exit is not encouraging, it is an embarrassment.

Ainge wants to plan for the future? He can't stop with the Brooklyn trade.

i think when we are 13-37, maybe around the all-star break, and Ainge hasn't made a groundbreaking trade that would have brought us an expensive, salary-cap-killing, mid-high level talent come trade deadline.