Author Topic: We have one option TANK!  (Read 8611 times)

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Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2013, 02:53:48 AM »

Offline Casperian

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2. Yes, I want those extra 15 wins. Why? Because winning breeds more winning an losing breeds more losing.

That is not true in the NBA. Do you have any recent examples? If you do, I have many more examples to the contrary.

And super young future superstars almost never win rings. Established superstars that have bee around a while win rings.

And how are you going to get them? You have to be a bit more specific.

So get that extra 15 wins. Manuever salary around and get cap space and go get an established superstar to add to this core to win a championship. THAT is way smarter than tanking to get a kid that MIGHT be good, MIGHT be great, MIGHT be good enough to become a superstar, and MIGHT be around long enough to win the team a championship years and years later. Why? Because the fact remains that even the greatest of players usually will take 7-8 years to be mature, strong, talented and lucky enough  and remain with the team long enough to win that championship.

Under the new CBA, star players will most definitely choose to extend with the home team over any other team for their first big contract.

You´re musing about some theoretical "best way to rebuild", but talk only in generalities which, just like the people who believe tanking is the only option, are just not always true.
Let´s talk about the things we can change, not stuff that might or might not happen.

If you want to talk in generalities, here they are:

- to win in the NBA, you need quality players.

- to get quality players, you need to either a) draft them, b) trade for them or c) sign them as FA.

- we can agree or disagree about Boston being a "destination city", but there´s strong evidence to believe it´s not. True or not, any rebuilding plan involving FA signings has to get into the specifics of "who" you´re going to sign.
You can´t simply say "we go for Durant and LeBron in FA". Common sense tells you it´s not that easy. This makes it just as much of a crapshoot as the draft, with the difference being that you can get good consolation prices in the draft, if you´re doing your job correctly. It is certainly not viable enough to be considered a "plan". This leaves us with options a) and b)

- to draft players, you need draft picks.

- if you want to trade for a star player, it means the other team has to be willing to give this star player up. Pretty much the only situation where a team is willing to trade a player that could win a championship for them is if the player doesn´t want to play for this team anymore. Regardless of the circumstances, the trading team will want to get something of value in return, so-called "assets".
In other words, this team will find itself at the start of this bullet point section, in exactly the same position we are currently in.

- since the "value" of these assets lies in the eye of the beholder, and depends on the direction the receiving team wants to go in, it is fair to assume that young players with potential and draft picks, which could turn into this kind of player, are the only trade commodity that has any value to them.
In other words, it simply doesn´t make sense for the Pelicans to trade Anthony Davis for Tim Duncan, even if Davis wants to leave.

- Even more importantly, you need to trade for guys who can really make a difference. The Josh Smith´s and Al Jefferson´s of this world alone are not going to cut it. Unfortunately, the Durant´s and LeBron´s aren´t always readily available, which means a lot of time can pass until such an opportunity arises. Time, in which the young players you´ve spent your draft picks and cap space on will naturally lose their appeal to the team you´re trying to trade them to (as explained above).

- This turns the whole meta game behind rebuilding into a "war of attrition".

The dilemma should be quite obvious: You can´t sign quality players without already having quality players on the roster. You can´t trade for them without "assets", potential quality players. You can only draft them. Fortunately, not only can draft picks turn into quality players themselves, they are also an asset per se.

So, it all comes down to a very simple formula:

Accumulate assets, retain flexibility, strike when the opportunity arises (either through the draft or on the trade market).

If you want to make an impact, you need to pack a punch (having assets), and be able to land it (having flexibility at the right time).

That is the only thing you can plan for and work towards. Everything else is truly "might or might not work".

Be water, my friend. Be water.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 03:08:43 AM by Casperian »
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2013, 02:57:34 AM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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Bruce mad at u brotha

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2013, 04:11:13 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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1. Do you mean a draft like the one where Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, and Bosh can out? You mean its a draft like that? How many of those guys won a ring with the team that drafted them? How many of those guys are still with the team that drafted them?

James went to the finals with Cleveland, for example, so it's not as if Cleveland didn't get good value out of the pick.  Also, James has won 2 titles, as has Bosh, and Wade has more than that.  Also, Wade was drafted by the Heat, so he's won his titles for his original team.

James - 1 finals appearance with his original team, 2 titles elsewhere

Bosh - 2 titles elsewhere

Wade - 3 titles with his original team

You seem to be nitpicking.


The NBA is about the talent.  NBA titles are generally about high end, or elite, talent, and usually more than one such talent on the winning team.

I think Darko Milicic was the first one to win a championship out of the lottery picks in that draft class?

So:

Milicic - 1 title with his original team!

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2013, 06:43:13 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2013, 08:40:09 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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Actually there is a lot more options than tanking. If you are looking at nothing but short term and "well we aren't winning a title next year so let's tank to get Wiggins, Randle, etc.", then that is a horrible philosophy.

How many championships has Lebron won for Cleveland, Durant for OKC, Oden for Portland, Irving for Cleveland, Bosh for Toronto, Darko for Detroit, Rose for Chicago, Wall for Washington, Griffin for the Clippers, Harden for OKC, Bargnani for Toronto, Aldridge for Portland, Bogut for Milwaukee, Paul for New Orleans, Williams for Utah, Howard for Orlando, Anthony for Denver, or Yao for Houston.

These are some of the greatest stars chosen in the draft at the top of the draft over the last 10 years. None won titles for the team that drafted them. Dwyane Wade is about the only player over that span, chosen near the top of the draft, that won a title for the team that drafted him.

One guy over the last decade chosen near the top of the draft that won a title for the team that drafted him. One.

Tanking to get a 19 year old kid because he stands a one chance in a million of being a guy that will be great enough years down the line to win a title and still be on your team when he does it is just, IMHO, really, really..............trying to think of a nice word that isn't insulting to a person's intelligence.........illogical and against all odds.

Its like having a million dollars and investing it in a new unknown, unproven, never before stock on Wall Street thinking you are guaranteed a fortune when the truth is, you are way more likely to have just given away a million dollars and lost everything. Its bad business and just plain dumb.

Thank you, been saying the same thing since the trade.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2013, 09:32:50 AM »

Offline Casperian

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Bruce mad at u brotha

Are you talking about me? Nah, I ain´t mad.

In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2013, 09:41:16 AM »

Offline chambers

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We are tanking. No doubt about it.

Look at our big man chart. Won't be able to stop teams pouring it in against us. We'll suck either way.
Danny will trade Rondo if the right value is returned. Or he'll wait. Green, Bradley and Rondo are probably all on the block. Perhaps Rondo and Sully stays or a combo of Sully and Green.

We need a franchise player though. At the moment we've got a second option in Rondo and a third option in Green (who could become a second option) and the best way to do it is to tank in our situation.

Our front court line up is an obvious tank. zero point production inside except Sully and his 10 points a game.
Zero defense on pick and rolls, help defense or rim protection.
Add in zero shooting and we are left with a very good defensive and fast break guard combination and not much else. Good thing about that is those guards will all increase their trade value whilst helping guys like Olnyk and Melo look good too.

Look at last 20 years of championships. Every team except the Pistons has a home grown/drafted franchise player that they picked in the top 5 and a few in the top 10. Most of them are number one picks.
Results speak for themselves. If you want a dynasty, you build it around someone you draft with the number one pick or a top 10 pick who's a sleeper.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2013, 10:26:52 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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We are tanking. No doubt about it.

Look at our big man chart. Won't be able to stop teams pouring it in against us. We'll suck either way.
Danny will trade Rondo if the right value is returned. Or he'll wait. Green, Bradley and Rondo are probably all on the block. Perhaps Rondo and Sully stays or a combo of Sully and Green.

We need a franchise player though. At the moment we've got a second option in Rondo and a third option in Green (who could become a second option) and the best way to do it is to tank in our situation.

Our front court line up is an obvious tank. zero point production inside except Sully and his 10 points a game.
Zero defense on pick and rolls, help defense or rim protection.
Add in zero shooting and we are left with a very good defensive and fast break guard combination and not much else. Good thing about that is those guards will all increase their trade value whilst helping guys like Olnyk and Melo look good too.

Look at last 20 years of championships. Every team except the Pistons has a home grown/drafted franchise player that they picked in the top 5 and a few in the top 10. Most of them are number one picks.
Results speak for themselves. If you want a dynasty, you build it around someone you draft with the number one pick or a top 10 pick who's a sleeper.

well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2013, 10:57:33 AM »

Offline jacksmedulaoblongata

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Look at last 20 years of championships. Every team except the Pistons has a home grown/drafted franchise player that they picked in the top 5 and a few in the top 10. Most of them are number one picks.
Results speak for themselves. If you want a dynasty, you build it around someone you draft with the number one pick or a top 10 pick who's a sleeper.

You forgot the Lakers.  Shaq wasn't drafted by the Lakers and neither was Kobe Bryant; and Bryant was the 13th pick back in 96'.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »

Offline connor

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Actually there is a lot more options than tanking. If you are looking at nothing but short term and "well we aren't winning a title next year so let's tank to get Wiggins, Randle, etc.", then that is a horrible philosophy.

How many championships has Lebron won for Cleveland, Durant for OKC, Oden for Portland, Irving for Cleveland, Bosh for Toronto, Darko for Detroit, Rose for Chicago, Wall for Washington, Griffin for the Clippers, Harden for OKC, Bargnani for Toronto, Aldridge for Portland, Bogut for Milwaukee, Paul for New Orleans, Williams for Utah, Howard for Orlando, Anthony for Denver, or Yao for Houston.

These are some of the greatest stars chosen in the draft at the top of the draft over the last 10 years. None won titles for the team that drafted them. Dwyane Wade is about the only player over that span, chosen near the top of the draft, that won a title for the team that drafted him.

One guy over the last decade chosen near the top of the draft that won a title for the team that drafted him. One.

Tanking to get a 19 year old kid because he stands a one chance in a million of being a guy that will be great enough years down the line to win a title and still be on your team when he does it is just, IMHO, really, really..............trying to think of a nice word that isn't insulting to a person's intelligence.........illogical and against all odds.

Its like having a million dollars and investing it in a new unknown, unproven, never before stock on Wall Street thinking you are guaranteed a fortune when the truth is, you are way more likely to have just given away a million dollars and lost everything. Its bad business and just plain dumb.

See normally I would agree with you. I am not a fan of tanking, I don't think its the smartest way to rebuild. Any time you leave your fate up to pingpong balls in a self-titled "lottery" I think you are asking for trouble. I think the best way to rebuild is to accumulate assets (combination of young current nba talent and picks) and to continually develop and move those assets until you are in a position to snag a superstar.

But the problem with our current situation is that we traded away KG, PP and Doc for future picks and no real current assets. There is no way to determine the value of those picks until we have played out at least this season and probably next as well to see where they might end up in the draft.

That makes it really hard for us to maneuver and collect more young talent to develop and stay competitive.

Had we moved KG, PP and Doc for young player(s) like Bledsoe and Jordan or Gordon and picks/cap room we would be in a better situation to not have to tank.

Instead we have a pretty awful roster and tons of extra picks and no extra cap room. That really makes tanking our best option. We can let the young players see tons of minutes, while hoping that our longer term contracts (Bass, Lee, Wallace) play well enough to be moved at some point during the season for future cap room. We can make some trades at the deadline for some of our talent and hopefully take advantage of a contending team's urgency. And at the end of the season we should have a reasonably good chance at landing somewhere near the front of the lottery for another great asset.

We just aren't in a position to do much else. It's not about going after a 19 year old kid who is going to carry us to our next championship. It's about getting ourselves another asset to help us move forward.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2013, 12:17:12 PM »

Offline gar

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lol TANK mode is not chill dude.

I say we try our best to put the best product on the court and go with it. We are the Celtics and we are not tankers.

There is nothing wrong with rebuilding in Danny and Brad we trust.

I love a coach that really really wants to be there for the team, the organization. I hope this coach will not tell us he does not need the job because he is independently wealthy ::).

I hope he will move his family to Boston so he does not miss them too much and tell us he needs to spend more time with his family  ::).

So we should be excited we are the Celtics and it should be onward ever backward never.

I don't know why I bother. Semantics is meaningless in this word of hype and hyperbole. We are not "TANKING" we are rebuilding, there is a big difference. If you only look at the win loss column then the results might look similar. But if you are building for the future with a youthful core of talented players while managing cap space and accumulating assets that may be too nuanced a concept for some. "TANKING" is for losers.

Re: We have one option TANK!
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2013, 01:32:33 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Two leaders that should produce consistent stats: green and rondo

Need consistency from: avery bradley

Two highly regarded young player: sully and olynyk whom also are expected to get chances to be starting front court players

With this said , we have an unknown bench situation. If wallace , humprhies, lee are kept to me that is at least a decent bench. We got a so called genius coach. If everything pans out , we make 6-8 spot this year. If sully, olynyk, bradley arent starting material, well we have clear directions as to what positions we need to fill to be a great team. If rondo and green struggle themselves, than imo we are headed for a full fledge tank. And the window or chance could be as soon as this year trade deadline. Stevens is prob the surest thing on this team to stay, at least will b given 2 to 3 years. Bc if he is gone, we can expect ainge is next.

This is where i see the path the team is headed in. First 20-games will be new , exciting and nervewrecking at the same time