Author Topic: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers  (Read 20222 times)

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Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2013, 01:18:59 AM »

Offline BballTim

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there is merit that doc doesn't want to go on a full rebuild. But to call a team without kg and pp as going on "rebuild" mode doesn't make sense

either he really doesn't see alot in Rondo, Green and Sully

or

he has little confidence without big name stars, he can pull it together

or

he really really can't stand coaching Rondo. I mean i can understand this. When Rondo does his roll the ball over the court slowly crap, when the team needs the ball to be pushed to when he sets formations on the fly (when clearly it didn't work in the losing streak). Doc looks like he lacks control of the team and as a coach you should be in control more than any one player.

I wouldn't be surprised its either getting rid of Rivers or Rondo. If Rondo suddenly gets traded and Doc has a change of heart to coach the team, i guess we will know the truth then

  You're actually claiming Doc doesn't like coaching Rondo because he looks like he can't control things when Rondo lets the ball roll up the court? He (obviously) does that to conserve time on the clock, and it's clearly not in a situation where it would help to push the ball upcourt.

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2013, 01:50:10 AM »

Offline blink

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Please stop the Doc is the number 2 coach in the league nonsense. The man cannot win without stars. He wont even stay to be exposed.

  How many coaches win without stars?

Does Larry Brown's 2004 Detroit Pistons count? Not one of them were superstars though! Lol.

Why do people always bring this up?  I mean yes, there are always EXCEPTIONS to any trend or rule.  But for the last 25  years it takes at least 1 and sometimes 2 superstars to win a title.  You need a superstar scorer to be able to will you to at least a few wins along the way. 

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2013, 01:57:54 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Please stop the Doc is the number 2 coach in the league nonsense. The man cannot win without stars. He wont even stay to be exposed.

  How many coaches win without stars?

Does Larry Brown's 2004 Detroit Pistons count? Not one of them were superstars though! Lol.

Why do people always bring this up?  I mean yes, there are always EXCEPTIONS to any trend or rule.  But for the last 25  years it takes at least 1 and sometimes 2 superstars to win a title.  You need a superstar scorer to be able to will you to at least a few wins along the way.

And while none of them were 'superstars,' however you care to define the term, I'd say that having four All Star players is a pretty good showing for a starting linuep.
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Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2013, 02:03:32 AM »

Offline blink

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Please stop the Doc is the number 2 coach in the league nonsense. The man cannot win without stars. He wont even stay to be exposed.

  How many coaches win without stars?

Does Larry Brown's 2004 Detroit Pistons count? Not one of them were superstars though! Lol.

Why do people always bring this up?  I mean yes, there are always EXCEPTIONS to any trend or rule.  But for the last 25  years it takes at least 1 and sometimes 2 superstars to win a title.  You need a superstar scorer to be able to will you to at least a few wins along the way.

And while none of them were 'superstars,' however you care to define the term, I'd say that having four All Star players is a pretty good showing for a starting linuep.

Maybe 'superstar' isn't the right word.  All star quality works fine.  If all you have is all star quality you probably need 2 or 3 like we did in 2008.  But if you just look at the MVP of the finals over the last 25 years and look who won the championship it becomes clear very quickly.  The Detroit banner is a very rare bird.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 02:11:25 AM by blink »

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2013, 06:46:09 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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OMG. So lemme get this straight. Rondo tells Rivers to go eff himself during a team meeting and people still take Rondo's side? I agree that Rivers probably could have handled it better but doesnt that say more about how uncoachable Rondo is? Get this guy out of here. He's a punk. And the funny part is people want to pair this guy up with Josh Smith who is an equally volatile punk. That's a recipe for disaster.

Trade Rondo. Draft someone like Schroeder. Start fresh. Rondo clearly isnt leading this team to anything.

  Rondo's already led the team to something. Start with all the way to game 7 of the ECF last year. Saying he won't lead the team anywhere is like saying he'll never be an all-star. Again, I'd like to know when the incident happened, some of the Rondo/Doc clashes have been reported well after they happened like they were recent events. And I think that people are looking at this in a vacuum, I doubt that dropping an f-bomb during a meeting is the worst thing that ever happens in the nba. This blog has had tons of posts in favor of trades for players that have gotten coaches fired. If you don't want players that have done worse than swear at a coach in a meeting you're going to be a perennial bottom feeder.

Several people here are saying things like this as if it was all Rondo taking us as far as we went last year, and nobody else did anything.

KG had a MONSTER playoffs last year and had at least as much to do with our deep run as Rondo did. 

Not taking anything away from Rondo's play as he was fantastic, but it wasn't all him.  Our role players (Marquis, Pietrus, Dooling, etc) came up huge in some of those games too. Pierce and Ray...not so much.

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2013, 07:40:07 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Why do people always bring this up?  I mean yes, there are always EXCEPTIONS to any trend or rule.  But for the last 25  years it takes at least 1 and sometimes 2 superstars to win a title.  You need a superstar scorer to be able to will you to at least a few wins along the way. 

He isn't talking about championships.  He meant win in general.   

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/riverdo01c.html

He was a .500 coach without the big three in the regular season.   

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2013, 08:39:42 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Please stop the Doc is the number 2 coach in the league nonsense. The man cannot win without stars. He wont even stay to be exposed.

Doc won NBA coach of the year by taking the following roster to .500 in 2000:

Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Ben Wallace
Jon Amaechi
Chucky Atkins
Monty Williams
Pat Garrity
Corey Maggette
Michael Doleac
Tariq Abdul-Wahad

If you're so dismissive of that accomplishment, why don't you educate us?

Name the other teams in the modern era with fewer "stars" who were 41-41 or better. If you're right they should be common.

If you go by PER that Orlando team only had one guy (Armstrong) with a PER above 15.3. (15 is an *average* NBA player, recall).

For comparison the other teams with similar records to that Orlando squad in 2000 were Dallas, Detroit and Milwaukee.

Dallas had peak Finley and emerging Nowitzki; its top 5 guys by minutes had PERs above 16.5.

Detroit had peak Grant Hill (PER=24.5) and Stackhouse, and a total of four guys with PER>15 (14.8 really).

Milwaukee had Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell all close to their peaks, and had three guys with PE>17.

Of those three teams and ORL, which teams won more games with fewer stars?

If you don't like PER, pick another metric that has some objective basis and give us an argument supporting your claim that Doc "cannot win without stars."

Facts, please.

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2013, 08:49:22 AM »

Offline clover

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Please stop the Doc is the number 2 coach in the league nonsense. The man cannot win without stars. He wont even stay to be exposed.

Doc won NBA coach of the year by taking the following roster to .500 in 2000:

Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Ben Wallace
Jon Amaechi
Chucky Atkins
Monty Williams
Pat Garrity
Corey Maggette
Michael Doleac
Tariq Abdul-Wahad

If you're so dismissive of that accomplishment, why don't you educate us?

Name the other teams in the modern era with fewer "stars" who were 41-41 or better. If you're right they should be common.

If you go by PER that Orlando team only had one guy (Armstrong) with a PER above 15.3. (15 is an *average* NBA player, recall).

For comparison the other teams with similar records to that Orlando squad in 2000 were Dallas, Detroit and Milwaukee.

Dallas had peak Finley and emerging Nowitzki; its top 5 guys by minutes had PERs above 16.5.

Detroit had peak Grant Hill (PER=24.5) and Stackhouse, and a total of four guys with PER>15 (14.8 really).

Milwaukee had Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell all close to their peaks, and had three guys with PE>17.

Of those three teams and ORL, which teams won more games with fewer stars?

If you don't like PER, pick another metric that has some objective basis and give us an argument supporting your claim that Doc "cannot win without stars."

Facts, please.

Good point.  We can get carried away with either over- or under-valuing Doc.

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2013, 09:05:10 AM »

Online Moranis

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Isn't the bigger story that Doc tried to fight Rondo after Rondo f bombed him?
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Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2013, 09:46:31 AM »

Offline BballTim

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OMG. So lemme get this straight. Rondo tells Rivers to go eff himself during a team meeting and people still take Rondo's side? I agree that Rivers probably could have handled it better but doesnt that say more about how uncoachable Rondo is? Get this guy out of here. He's a punk. And the funny part is people want to pair this guy up with Josh Smith who is an equally volatile punk. That's a recipe for disaster.

Trade Rondo. Draft someone like Schroeder. Start fresh. Rondo clearly isnt leading this team to anything.

  Rondo's already led the team to something. Start with all the way to game 7 of the ECF last year. Saying he won't lead the team anywhere is like saying he'll never be an all-star. Again, I'd like to know when the incident happened, some of the Rondo/Doc clashes have been reported well after they happened like they were recent events. And I think that people are looking at this in a vacuum, I doubt that dropping an f-bomb during a meeting is the worst thing that ever happens in the nba. This blog has had tons of posts in favor of trades for players that have gotten coaches fired. If you don't want players that have done worse than swear at a coach in a meeting you're going to be a perennial bottom feeder.

Several people here are saying things like this as if it was all Rondo taking us as far as we went last year, and nobody else did anything.

KG had a MONSTER playoffs last year and had at least as much to do with our deep run as Rondo did. 

Not taking anything away from Rondo's play as he was fantastic, but it wasn't all him.  Our role players (Marquis, Pietrus, Dooling, etc) came up huge in some of those games too. Pierce and Ray...not so much.

  First of all, I'd say that in general when someone says "player X led his team to a playoff win" most people take it to mean he was the best player or did the most to help his team win. When someone says Rondo led the team to some success people take it to mean "Rondo and only Rondo was responsible for the wins and nobody else helped at all", probably because it offends their sensibilities so much or is in conflict with so much of what they read on the internet. When it's said about Rondo it still maintains it's typical meaning.

  Overall our role players in the 2012 playoffs were pretty poor. If Quis or Pietrus were halfway decent overall they would have played more and Ray and Bradley, who were playing poorly, would have played less. Our backup bigs were terrible, and our starting wings were all injured. It was a fairly motley crew.

  And while KG was a MONSTER on offense in the 2012 playoffs you need to consider how many of those points came off of passes from Rondo, either on lobs or for open jumpers because Rondo pulled KG's man away from him. Rondo was basically the difference in KG's offense in the 2012 and 2013 playoffs. I think they actually set a record for most assists from 1 player to another in a playoff game last year.

  Look at how much trouble the Celts had trying to score against the Knicks (a below average defensive team) this year, and imagine how much worse they'd have looked without their leading scorer Green. The team without Green was probably better than Rondo's surrounding cast last year, when the offense held it's own against three of the top defenses in the league. The difference was Rondo, who (and I don't understand why people didn't notice this or don't think it's significant) scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points than any other player in the league in the 2012 playoffs.

  By the way, KG did have a lot to do with our 2012 playoff success, just not (IMO) as much as Rondo. Rondo carried our offense. While KG scored a lot he's by and large dependent on other players to get him open looks. That doesn't take away from his defense and rebounding though.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:53:49 AM by BballTim »

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2013, 09:52:49 AM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Because Rondo is 100% for the team...and look at doc....joe-quitter"  he is as I always said he was.....he wants to go to a team that just has so many stars it just wins with out him....I want him gone....we don't need him..keep kg..!

If KG will only play for Doc, how exactly do we do that?

IF KG will only play for doc then he needs to go also...we cannot live under doc anymore....we need an open mind that can see past the big 3...no more playing kg and pp till they are coughing dust...they need to come off the bench and teach younger plays their craft...if they won't then they need to be traded, we can get plenty for pp or kg.....I would love to keep them but pp will not accept that role, and probably not kg either....and I guarantee they go to another team...they come off the bench, and get less time....you have to grow up and accept that you are not 25 anymore one day....

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2013, 09:56:36 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Isn't the bigger story that Doc tried to fight Rondo after Rondo f bombed him?

  I think so. If Rondo swearing at Doc was that big of a deal Doc should have just kicked Rondo out of the meeting, not gone after him.

Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2013, 10:18:18 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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OMG. So lemme get this straight. Rondo tells Rivers to go eff himself during a team meeting and people still take Rondo's side? I agree that Rivers probably could have handled it better but doesnt that say more about how uncoachable Rondo is? Get this guy out of here. He's a punk. And the funny part is people want to pair this guy up with Josh Smith who is an equally volatile punk. That's a recipe for disaster.

Trade Rondo. Draft someone like Schroeder. Start fresh. Rondo clearly isnt leading this team to anything.

  Rondo's already led the team to something. Start with all the way to game 7 of the ECF last year. Saying he won't lead the team anywhere is like saying he'll never be an all-star. Again, I'd like to know when the incident happened, some of the Rondo/Doc clashes have been reported well after they happened like they were recent events. And I think that people are looking at this in a vacuum, I doubt that dropping an f-bomb during a meeting is the worst thing that ever happens in the nba. This blog has had tons of posts in favor of trades for players that have gotten coaches fired. If you don't want players that have done worse than swear at a coach in a meeting you're going to be a perennial bottom feeder.

Several people here are saying things like this as if it was all Rondo taking us as far as we went last year, and nobody else did anything.

KG had a MONSTER playoffs last year and had at least as much to do with our deep run as Rondo did. 

Not taking anything away from Rondo's play as he was fantastic, but it wasn't all him.  Our role players (Marquis, Pietrus, Dooling, etc) came up huge in some of those games too. Pierce and Ray...not so much.

It wasn't all Rondo who led us to game seven of the ECF in '12 and to game seven of the finals in '10.  Of course it wasn't.  Kevin Garnett played a huge role in those playoff runs, as did Paul Pierce.  And, yes, there were role players who stepped up and had some big moments as well. 

I still think it's fair to say that Rondo led the team on those runs.  I guess it can be debated who led the team more, Rondo or Garnett.  He was, arguably, our best player, though.  It's like arguing between Parker and Duncan this year, or Bryant and Gasol in 09 and 10.  Or, it's like arguing between George and Hibbert on this year's Pacers team.  Unfortunately for Russell Westbrook, he has never led his team anywhere because he plays with Kevin Durant, who is clearly the on-court leader of that team. 

Rondo's a great player who is capable of taking the team on his shoulders and being the best player on the court on any given night, regardless of who else is on the court with him.  The fact that he doesn't do it every game--not even in the playoffs--doesn't take away from that.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, brings his A game every single game.  That doesn't mean that every NBA superstar is lazy and only brings it when he feels like it.  It means it's virtually impossible to dominate every single quarter of every single game when opposing defenses are geared towards stopping you.

Rondo's resume, particularly his playoff resume, ought to speak for itself.  Apparently, though, it doesn't among a large contingent of Celtics fans.  They expect him to be even better, even more consistently.  The lack of ability to place his game in context among the league's other elite players is understandable.  He's the leader of our team.  We don't care that the likes of Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne Wade, Steph Curry, etc. have all put up some stinkers in the playoffs, have run out of gas, have been taken off their games.  They're not Celtics.  On the other hand, we don't call them all bums when they have their subpar moments. It's easier for many fans to sit back and admire the moments of greatness and ignore the moments of not-so-greatness for other teams' stars.  I get it.  I do. 

I'm just trying to inject a little reality into the situation here, though, to ask people to use some context when they think about how good players are or aren't.  And, in context, Rondo has been one of the best.  If you are one of those fans where your eyesight test can only show you the negatives in Rondo's game (and, of course, there are negatives--as there are with every player, the perfect player doesn't exist), then, look instead at the numbers.  His playoff numbers over the course of the last four playoffs that he's participated in don't lie.  Those numbers say he's among the league's very best, and that's because he is. 

In response to the inevitable shouts of "yeah, but, he can't shoot," or "yeah, but, he gambles too much on defense," or "yeah, but, he's only great because he plays with other great players,"   I'll just remind you that all players come with some "yeah buts." 

So, for those who desperately want to trade Rondo away in the hopes that that "perfect player," the one who leads us to decades of NBA dominance is going to be coming down the pike some time in the near future, I can only say, good luck with that. 

Personally, I'd rather keep the star player that we already have. 
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Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2013, 11:31:21 AM »

Offline Tgro

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Because Rondo is 100% for the team...and look at doc....joe-quitter"  he is as I always said he was.....he wants to go to a team that just has so many stars it just wins with out him....I want him gone....we don't need him..keep kg..!

If KG will only play for Doc, how exactly do we do that?

IF KG will only play for doc then he needs to go also...we cannot live under doc anymore....we need an open mind that can see past the big 3...no more playing kg and pp till they are coughing dust...they need to come off the bench and teach younger plays their craft...if they won't then they need to be traded, we can get plenty for pp or kg.....I would love to keep them but pp will not accept that role, and probably not kg either....and I guarantee they go to another team...they come off the bench, and get less time....you have to grow up and accept that you are not 25 anymore one day....

Yeah, I agree with this. I think we would be stronger with those guys coming off the bench then we would be with them playing starters minutes.

If KG goes where Doc goes, then I guess I don't care what he does. If he goes with Doc to the Clippers, I don't care. I kind of prefer we end the deal with the Clippers and make them decide. You wanna stay? Stay. You wanna quit? Quit.

They need to play for the name on the jersey and not just Doc. Doc needs to deal with the team in it's current situation or put the broadcast headset on. I'm sure he'll be entertaining.
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Re: Rondo F-Bombed Rivers
« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2013, 01:58:42 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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OMG. So lemme get this straight. Rondo tells Rivers to go eff himself during a team meeting and people still take Rondo's side? I agree that Rivers probably could have handled it better but doesnt that say more about how uncoachable Rondo is? Get this guy out of here. He's a punk. And the funny part is people want to pair this guy up with Josh Smith who is an equally volatile punk. That's a recipe for disaster.

Trade Rondo. Draft someone like Schroeder. Start fresh. Rondo clearly isnt leading this team to anything.

  Rondo's already led the team to something. Start with all the way to game 7 of the ECF last year. Saying he won't lead the team anywhere is like saying he'll never be an all-star. Again, I'd like to know when the incident happened, some of the Rondo/Doc clashes have been reported well after they happened like they were recent events. And I think that people are looking at this in a vacuum, I doubt that dropping an f-bomb during a meeting is the worst thing that ever happens in the nba. This blog has had tons of posts in favor of trades for players that have gotten coaches fired. If you don't want players that have done worse than swear at a coach in a meeting you're going to be a perennial bottom feeder.

Several people here are saying things like this as if it was all Rondo taking us as far as we went last year, and nobody else did anything.

KG had a MONSTER playoffs last year and had at least as much to do with our deep run as Rondo did. 

Not taking anything away from Rondo's play as he was fantastic, but it wasn't all him.  Our role players (Marquis, Pietrus, Dooling, etc) came up huge in some of those games too. Pierce and Ray...not so much.

It wasn't all Rondo who led us to game seven of the ECF in '12 and to game seven of the finals in '10.  Of course it wasn't.  Kevin Garnett played a huge role in those playoff runs, as did Paul Pierce.  And, yes, there were role players who stepped up and had some big moments as well. 

I still think it's fair to say that Rondo led the team on those runs.  I guess it can be debated who led the team more, Rondo or Garnett.  He was, arguably, our best player, though.  It's like arguing between Parker and Duncan this year, or Bryant and Gasol in 09 and 10.  Or, it's like arguing between George and Hibbert on this year's Pacers team.  Unfortunately for Russell Westbrook, he has never led his team anywhere because he plays with Kevin Durant, who is clearly the on-court leader of that team. 

Rondo's a great player who is capable of taking the team on his shoulders and being the best player on the court on any given night, regardless of who else is on the court with him.  The fact that he doesn't do it every game--not even in the playoffs--doesn't take away from that.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, brings his A game every single game.  That doesn't mean that every NBA superstar is lazy and only brings it when he feels like it.  It means it's virtually impossible to dominate every single quarter of every single game when opposing defenses are geared towards stopping you.

Rondo's resume, particularly his playoff resume, ought to speak for itself.  Apparently, though, it doesn't among a large contingent of Celtics fans.  They expect him to be even better, even more consistently.  The lack of ability to place his game in context among the league's other elite players is understandable.  He's the leader of our team.  We don't care that the likes of Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne Wade, Steph Curry, etc. have all put up some stinkers in the playoffs, have run out of gas, have been taken off their games.  They're not Celtics.  On the other hand, we don't call them all bums when they have their subpar moments. It's easier for many fans to sit back and admire the moments of greatness and ignore the moments of not-so-greatness for other teams' stars.  I get it.  I do. 

I'm just trying to inject a little reality into the situation here, though, to ask people to use some context when they think about how good players are or aren't.  And, in context, Rondo has been one of the best.  If you are one of those fans where your eyesight test can only show you the negatives in Rondo's game (and, of course, there are negatives--as there are with every player, the perfect player doesn't exist), then, look instead at the numbers.  His playoff numbers over the course of the last four playoffs that he's participated in don't lie.  Those numbers say he's among the league's very best, and that's because he is. 

In response to the inevitable shouts of "yeah, but, he can't shoot," or "yeah, but, he gambles too much on defense," or "yeah, but, he's only great because he plays with other great players,"   I'll just remind you that all players come with some "yeah buts." 

So, for those who desperately want to trade Rondo away in the hopes that that "perfect player," the one who leads us to decades of NBA dominance is going to be coming down the pike some time in the near future, I can only say, good luck with that. 

Personally, I'd rather keep the star player that we already have.

tp because I agree..!