Simmons List--Best Point Guard Alive

[fairweatherfan]

Was Magic a better PLAYER than Stockton? Overall, yes. But was he a better POINT GUARD? I'd say he wasn't. So he got a bunch more rebounds and scored more points; Stockton got a ton more assists and steals. Stockton led the league in assists in every season from 1987 to 1996, and he averaged over 14 assists per game in the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons.

I'm not trying to claim Stockton can leap over tall mountains, but how does Magic get the PG belt over Stockton for those seasons?

I think saying Magic is a better player but not a better point guard is a distinction without a difference.  If he's a point guard and a better player, he's a better point guard. 

It'd be like saying Durant is a better small forward than LeBron because he has a more conventional SF skillset.  I think maybe what you're getting at is that Stockton was a better "pure" PG, which kinda boils down to a semantic argument.

[Mazingerz]

Why was Dennis Johnson not on the list?

[nickagneta]

Was Magic a better PLAYER than Stockton? Overall, yes. But was he a better POINT GUARD? I'd say he wasn't. So he got a bunch more rebounds and scored more points; Stockton got a ton more assists and steals. Stockton led the league in assists in every season from 1987 to 1996, and he averaged over 14 assists per game in the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons.

I'm not trying to claim Stockton can leap over tall mountains, but how does Magic get the PG belt over Stockton for those seasons?

I think saying Magic is a better player but not a better point guard is a distinction without a difference.  If he's a point guard and a better player, he's a better point guard. 

It'd be like saying Durant is a better small forward than LeBron because he has a more conventional SF skillset.  I think maybe what you're getting at is that Stockton was a better "pure" PG, which kinda boils down to a semantic argument.

That's not necessarily true. While I don't agree that Stockton was better than Magic as a PG in those years, I don't necessarily agree that BUTerrier's logic is flawed either. Magic could have been a better player and not a better PG, but he just wasn't. He was a better PG during those years.

[Boris Badenov]

He calls it a Championship belt, meaning that the title is fluid. Anyway, I think we can all discuss this list, offer throughts, suggestions, and counterarguments (including the inevitable "NO RONDO?!?!?!" outrage) that is sure to come as only Boston fans can dissect Simmons-y things.

1952-60: Bob Cousy
1960-69: Oscar Robertson
1969-72: Walt Frazier
1972-73: Tiny Archibald
1973-74: Walt Frazier
1974-76: Tiny Archibald
1976-77: Pete Maravich5
1977-79: Gus Williams
1979-80: Micheal Ray Richardson6
1980-81: Tiny Archibald
1982-91: Magic Johnson
1991-92: Tim Hardaway
1992-94: John Stockton
1994-96: Penny Hardaway
1996-98: Gary Payton
1998-2004: Jason Kidd
2004-07: Steve Nash
2007-09: Chris Paul
2009-10: Steve Nash
2010-11: Derrick Rose
2011-12: Chris Paul
2012-13: Tony Parker
(http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9399191/legacy-check)


Well? What do we think?
Aside from "NO RONDO?!?!?!" of course.

I would choose Stockton and/or Payton over Hardaway and/or Kidd for almost all of those years Simmons lists.

I'm starting to think Payton is very under-rated.

For a period of about 8 years he was the best scoring point guard in the league. His post offense was a real weapon, and he was a very good shooter with or without the dribble. He was also a very good playmaker.

At the same time he was a terror defensively - people who rave about Avery Bradley's on the ball defense should go back and watch video of GP at his peak.

With Kidd's offensive limitations I don't see how you could consider him to be a better player, at all, until the end of that range of years.

[2short]

Honestly, I think Magic is a no-doubt Hall-of-Famer and probably one of the best players of the 1980s. But to suggest he should get the PG title over Stockton for the later part of the 1980s is silly.

Here's Magic v. Stockton in the 87-88 season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=johnsma02&y1=1988&p2=stockjo01&y2=1988

In 88-89: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=johnsma02&y1=1989&p2=stockjo01&y2=1989

In 89-90: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=johnsma02&y1=1990&p2=stockjo01&y2=1990

In 90-91: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=johnsma02&y1=1991&p2=stockjo01&y2=1991

(And, for debate's sake, Hardaway vs. Stockton in 91-92: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hardati01&y1=1992&p2=stockjo01&y2=1992)

Was Magic a better PLAYER than Stockton? Overall, yes. But was he a better POINT GUARD? I'd say he wasn't. So he got a bunch more rebounds and scored more points; Stockton got a ton more assists and steals. Stockton led the league in assists in every season from 1987 to 1996, and he averaged over 14 assists per game in the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons.

I'm not trying to claim Stockton can leap over tall mountains, but how does Magic get the PG belt over Stockton for those seasons?

  Magic was a significantly better point guard than Stockton. If you actually watched the games back then (don't know if you did) you could probably argue that Isiah was better than Stockton as well for much of that time.

understand both your points
magic amazing PLAYER
isiah was a great point guard (pains me to say that) but a scoring point guard
john stockton best pure point guard ever

same discussion that goes on now with chris paul, d williams, d rose, rondo, parker etc

[CelticG1]

I truly don't understand the best pg versus best pure pg arguement.

The bottom line is who's better.

Its just ridiculous. Its like making an argument that some qb calls the best game and is the most accurate passer but he's won less, scored less etc than others.

[LarBrd33]

His list is sound.  Not sure i totally agree with Tony Parker... I think it's still Chris Paul.  But whatever.