Dallas and Pierce??

[clover]

How can we trade PP to the Mavs and get their 13 pick in this draft??

How can we make it work financially??  What trade exceptions do the Mavs own?/

Thanks,

Smitty

P.S. Same with Houston (who doesn't appear to own a #1 pick this year).

Dallas would have to include Marion, Carter and Cunningham for the numbers to work. I'm not sure it makes sense for the Celtics to take on all that salary, albeit expiring, for the 13th pick in this particular draft.

Lots of expiring salary for this year fits with also getting a good pick in 2014.

[Who]

It sounds like Dallas are going to try to talk to Shawn Marion about opting out of his contract and re-signing on a multi-year deal. Keep him Dallas at a discount. He doesn't lose money long term. And they get to keep Marion on next year's team.

Better option to pay Marion $6 million than pay Pierce $5 million not to play for them.

They should have no problems moving Cunningham's salary since he is an interesting young player. A smaller less costly trade to move Vince Carter. Maybe a 2nd round pick to send him to a team below the cap.

Keep their late lottery pick.

[JSD]

It sounds like Dallas are going to try to talk to Shawn Marion about opting out of his contract and re-signing on a multi-year deal. Keep him Dallas at a discount. He doesn't lose money long term. And they get to keep Marion on next year's team.

Better option to pay Marion $6 million than pay Pierce $5 million not to play for them.

They should have no problems moving Cunningham's salary since he is an interesting young player. A smaller less costly trade to move Vince Carter. Maybe a 2nd round pick to send him to a team below the cap.

Keep their late lottery pick.

That's if Marion agrees to opt out...

Dallas couldn't use the stretch provision on the $5 Million it takes to waive Pierce?

[JSD]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

[Who]

It sounds like Dallas are going to try to talk to Shawn Marion about opting out of his contract and re-signing on a multi-year deal. Keep him Dallas at a discount. He doesn't lose money long term. And they get to keep Marion on next year's team.

Better option to pay Marion $6 million than pay Pierce $5 million not to play for them.

They should have no problems moving Cunningham's salary since he is an interesting young player. A smaller less costly trade to move Vince Carter. Maybe a 2nd round pick to send him to a team below the cap.

Keep their late lottery pick.

That's if Marion agrees to opt out...

Dallas couldn't use the stretch provision on the $5 Million it takes to waive Pierce?

Did Pierce sign the contract before or after the new CBA?

I can't remember.

[saltlover]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

No team can claim Dirk.  If he were waived today, a team would need almost $21 million in cap room or a single trade exception to claim him.  Orlando's exception is $17 mil, which works for Pierce, but not for Dirk.  (If Orlando was really willing to do that, and Dallas knows this, the deal makes more sense for Dallas, because they wouldn't be on the hook for a dollar of Pierre's salary.)

[saltlover]

It sounds like Dallas are going to try to talk to Shawn Marion about opting out of his contract and re-signing on a multi-year deal. Keep him Dallas at a discount. He doesn't lose money long term. And they get to keep Marion on next year's team.

Better option to pay Marion $6 million than pay Pierce $5 million not to play for them.

They should have no problems moving Cunningham's salary since he is an interesting young player. A smaller less costly trade to move Vince Carter. Maybe a 2nd round pick to send him to a team below the cap.

Keep their late lottery pick.

That's if Marion agrees to opt out...

Dallas couldn't use the stretch provision on the $5 Million it takes to waive Pierce?

Did Pierce sign the contract before or after the new CBA?

I can't remember.

He signed with the old CBA.  So he's amnesty-eligible by the Celtics', but not by Dallas.

[aporel#18]

Pierce for Marion+VC and the #13 works out perfectly.

VC could be an interesting piece for Memphis or another contender in need for scoring. Marion is a big piece who can help contenders and/or teams in need for saving money.

By the trade deadline, you've gotten rid of those for better assets, or let them expire in the summer to make room. It's a win win because you know Dallas will buy Pierce out to let them go with KG and Doc.

So you could have the 13th, the 16th and the 25th this year. A bad draft? nah. Take Shabazz and Schroeder with the first two, and the biggest project who slips at #25. Let the kids lose games and develop, they'll be a lot of fun to watch and you'll have your top 10 pick or even top 5 in next year's draft. Any of the top 5 or top 8 picks could be a building piece, and you'll have enough flexibility and assets to make a trade for a star.

[JSD]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

No team can claim Dirk.  If he were waived today, a team would need almost $21 million in cap room or a single trade exception to claim him.  Orlando's exception is $17 mil, which works for Pierce, but not for Dirk.  (If Orlando was really willing to do that, and Dallas knows this, the deal makes more sense for Dallas, because they wouldn't be on the hook for a dollar of Pierre's salary.)

Are you suggesting that there isn't a team out there now that could absorb $21 or $22 million? Because I do not believe that to be the case.

[saltlover]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

No team can claim Dirk.  If he were waived today, a team would need almost $21 million in cap room or a single trade exception to claim him.  Orlando's exception is $17 mil, which works for Pierce, but not for Dirk.  (If Orlando was really willing to do that, and Dallas knows this, the deal makes more sense for Dallas, because they wouldn't be on the hook for a dollar of Pierre's salary.)

Are you suggesting that there isn't a team out there now that could absorb $21 or $22 million? Because I do not believe that to be the case.

It depends when they release Dirk, but I don't think so.  If he were released now, a team would have to be under the cap by his salary for this season to have room to claim him.  Because all team's have to be at 90% of this year's cap, there can't be a team with the room.  Maybe a team with $5 million of cap room could use the stretch position on their own players to clear another $15 million, but that's a lot of effort for one year of Dirk.  I don't think it would happen.  (And I'm not sure if that's allowed either).

The reason it's an interesting loophole is that it only works for players signed to very large contracts that can't be absorbed by other teams via waiver claims.

[JSD]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

No team can claim Dirk.  If he were waived today, a team would need almost $21 million in cap room or a single trade exception to claim him.  Orlando's exception is $17 mil, which works for Pierce, but not for Dirk.  (If Orlando was really willing to do that, and Dallas knows this, the deal makes more sense for Dallas, because they wouldn't be on the hook for a dollar of Pierre's salary.)

Are you suggesting that there isn't a team out there now that could absorb $21 or $22 million? Because I do not believe that to be the case.

It depends when they release Dirk, but I don't think so.  If he were released now, a team would have to be under the cap by his salary for this season to have room to claim him.  Because all team's have to be at 90% of this year's cap, there can't be a team with the room.  A team with $5 million of cap room could use the stretch position on their own players to clear another $15 million, but that's a lot of effort for one year of Dirk.  I don't think it would happen.

The reason it's an interesting loophole is that it only works for players signed to very large contracts that can't be absorbed by other teams via waiver claims.

Very interesting. So it works because Dallas knows nobody can claim him provided it is done before June 1st? That's huge, and something Cuban is savvy enough to do. TP to you. Good find.

[saltlover]

In the scenario I described, they would essentially shed everyone but Dirk, cut Pierce, and have enough cap space to sign Howard and Paul.

I think they'd have to do a bit more than that to get room for Paul and Howard, but I agree they'd do that trade for Pierce.  They would have to release Dirk with the stretch position and have him re-sign for the minimum.  But Dirk has openly talked about adjusting his contract to make room for players, so I think he's on board with this plan.

Can they do that? Use the stretch provision and then re-sign their own player? Is that allowed?

That is a pretty cool workaround on the salary cap if so.

I made that idea up myself, but I checked all through Larry Coon's FAQ, and I couldn't find a rule that said you couldn't.  In a fan post that's been delayed due to the Garnett-Doc issue, I was going to suggest that as an option for us with Pierce, so that we save on cap space for next season in order to bring in better players, while keeping goodwill with Pierce so that he's wiling to sign for the minimum (since he'll still be getting paid his full salary).  It wasn't necessarily going to be my recommended option, due to the long-term inflexibility that would create, but I think this loophole is available for teams to use until they probably close it in the next CBA.

Also, the more I think about the Pierce deal, the more I'm okay with it, as the logical option for us is to flip some of the picks we get from it and the Doc deal, along with the expirings, to Atlanta for Smith in a sign-and-trade.  Jordan, Smith, and maybe one pick still wouldn't be a terrible end-game.  I'd prefer other options, but I could live with that.

It is a rather brilliant loophole that I cannot imagine wasn't addressed. Dirk would still have to clear waivers though, and that would not happen. Orlando, for example, has already said that they would claim Pierce if he was waived. An expiring talent like Dirk is an asset to even a rebuilding team, even at $22 million.

No team can claim Dirk.  If he were waived today, a team would need almost $21 million in cap room or a single trade exception to claim him.  Orlando's exception is $17 mil, which works for Pierce, but not for Dirk.  (If Orlando was really willing to do that, and Dallas knows this, the deal makes more sense for Dallas, because they wouldn't be on the hook for a dollar of Pierre's salary.)

Are you suggesting that there isn't a team out there now that could absorb $21 or $22 million? Because I do not believe that to be the case.

It depends when they release Dirk, but I don't think so.  If he were released now, a team would have to be under the cap by his salary for this season to have room to claim him.  Because all team's have to be at 90% of this year's cap, there can't be a team with the room.  A team with $5 million of cap room could use the stretch position on their own players to clear another $15 million, but that's a lot of effort for one year of Dirk.  I don't think it would happen.

The reason it's an interesting loophole is that it only works for players signed to very large contracts that can't be absorbed by other teams via waiver claims.

Very interesting. So it works because Dallas knows nobody can claim him provided it is done before June 1st? That's huge, and something Cuban is savvy enough to do. TP to you. Good find.

I think so.  And I think Cuban must be aware of it, and Dirk too.  They're both acting like they have a way to create room for two max players (specifically Paul and Howard, without directly saying their names).  Contracts can't be renegotiated per the CBA, so that's not how they can do it.  Amnestying Dirk would work, but he's talked about taking less money to create room, and he can't be re-signed if he's amnestied (and I think they already used their amnesty on Chandler anyway).  Since Dirk plus Howard and Paul at their max salaries is over the cap by themselves, there's no way they could seriously be considering this unless there is some loophole like the one I've described.

[GreenEnvy]

Pierce for Marion+VC and the #13 works out perfectly.

VC could be an interesting piece for Memphis or another contender in need for scoring. Marion is a big piece who can help contenders and/or teams in need for saving money.

By the trade deadline, you've gotten rid of those for better assets, or let them expire in the summer to make room. It's a win win because you know Dallas will buy Pierce out to let them go with KG and Doc.

So you could have the 13th, the 16th and the 25th this year. A bad draft? nah. Take Shabazz and Schroeder with the first two, and the biggest project who slips at #25. Let the kids lose games and develop, they'll be a lot of fun to watch and you'll have your top 10 pick or even top 5 in next year's draft. Any of the top 5 or top 8 picks could be a building piece, and you'll have enough flexibility and assets to make a trade for a star.

Wrong.

[saltlover]

One note I failed to remember about this proposal: Shawn Marion can't be traded.  From Larry Coon's FAQ:

Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

So if Dallas is looking to dump salary, the only players on their roster who are dumpable are Cunningham, Carter, and Crowder.  And Nowitzski, but obviously he's not going anywhere.

[LooseCannon]

One note I failed to remember about this proposal: Shawn Marion can't be traded.  From Larry Coon's FAQ:

Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

So if Dallas is looking to dump salary, the only players on their roster who are dumpable are Cunningham, Carter, and Crowder.  And Nowitzski, but obviously he's not going anywhere.

He can be traded if the deadline for invoking an ETO passes without him doing so.