Pacers need a real point guard so bad

[Moranis]

I truly believe that the rule changes, the increase in popularity, and the expansion that happened beginning in the early 90's have changed the way the game is played.  Nash and Rose have three MVP's between them and have never even played in the finals.  Stockton, Payton, and Kidd didn't win in their primes (and Stockton never won).  Paul and Williams also have never even made a finals.  You are talking about some of the greatest PG's in the history of the game.  During the last 20 years, Malone and Barkley are the only all time great players at any other position that haven't won a title while in their prime.  Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, James, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Olajuwon, and Bryant all have. 

As I said, perhaps the style of play is shifting again and the league is going through another change which happens every 15-20 years or so, so we are due, but it hasn't happened yet.  Maybe if the Spurs (and Parker) win this year it will be the start of a PG revolution (so to speak), but as I said, we just aren't there yet.

You don't put Ewing in that category?  Tracy McGrady is another guy whose all time legacy is marred only by his lack of winning and his injury woes.  When he was at his best, he was right up there with any of them.  I also think that if Nash and Stoudemire could have gotten a title (or maybe even just reached a finals) during their primes, that Amare would be considered in a completely different category among the all-time greats.

Maybe we aren't at the PG revolution just yet, but I believe we are on the cusp.  And, if no team with an elite point guard wins a title over the course of the next half decade or so, it won't be because elite point guard driven teams can't win, but rather because the Heat have Lebron James. 

If Lebron decides to team up with Kyrie Irving back in Cleveland, that will very likely signal the end of the all star point guards as champions drought, though. 

And, back to the original point of this thread, I think it's absolutely crazy to think that if the Indiana Pacers replaced George Hill with any one of Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Russ Westbrook, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Steph Curry, or any other of a relatively large handful of PGs that are considerably better than George Hill that they wouldn't be closer to a title than they are now.

Ewing is borderline for me.  He has just 1 1st team all nba and never finished better than 4th in MVP voting.  He is probably in the top 25 centers of all time, but just barely, and for me that doesn't make him an all time great. 

McGrady is no where near an all time great.  Both Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are much higher up the list than T-Mac.  Heck even Grant Hill has higher status and Vince Carter probably does as well.  McGrady was a great scorer and had a couple of injury marred season with disgusting good stats, but he was rarely truly healthy and wouldn't know what defense was if it bit him on the butt.


I have no idea how chemistry would play out if you swapped out George Hill for a "better" player.  Maybe that better player completely stunts the growth of Paul George and Roy Hibbert and thus while having a "better" PG, the team is actually worse.  I mean Chris Paul had greater success in New Orleans with David West and Tyson Chandler than he has had in L.A. with what most would agree is a more talented team on the whole.  Sometimes adding a better player makes a team worse and maybe just maybe in today's NBA you don't want your best player to be a PG, then again maybe you do, but right now if you told me I could have a PG or a SG of equal talent, I'd take the SG and wouldn't give it a second thought.

[PhoSita]

I mean Chris Paul had greater success in New Orleans with David West and Tyson Chandler than he has had in L.A. with what most would agree is a more talented team on the whole. 

Considering what David West and Chandler have done since they parted ways with Chris Paul, I think it's safe to say people underrated West and Chandler because they were playing with Paul.

Honestly, even now I think I'd rather have a starting frontcourt of West and Chandler playing with CP3 than Griffin and Jordan.  More well rounded / balanced scoring and vastly superior defense.

I think I'd prefer Peja Stojakovic in his prime (28-30) over a slightly older Caron Butler.  And Matt Barnes vs Bonzi Wells / Rasual Butler / Mo Pete is eh.  Not a big deal.

Actually, thinking about it now that Hornets team is a stunning example of mismanagement.   Chris Paul, David West, and Tyson Chandler should have contended from 2008 to 2015.  That's a really easy trio to build around, you just need competent role players.  But now all three are doing good things for separate teams and the Hornets are rebuilding, though they were gifted Anthony Davis, at least, so their future is bright.

[snively]

I mean Chris Paul had greater success in New Orleans with David West and Tyson Chandler than he has had in L.A. with what most would agree is a more talented team on the whole. 

Considering what David West and Chandler have done since they parted ways with Chris Paul, I think it's safe to say people underrated West and Chandler because they were playing with Paul.

Honestly, even now I think I'd rather have a starting frontcourt of West and Chandler playing with CP3 than Griffin and Jordan.  More well rounded / balanced scoring and vastly superior defense.

I think I'd prefer Peja Stojakovic in his prime (28-30) over a slightly older Caron Butler.  And Matt Barnes vs Bonzi Wells / Rasual Butler / Mo Pete is eh.  Not a big deal.

Actually, thinking about it now that Hornets team is a stunning example of mismanagement.   Chris Paul, David West, and Tyson Chandler should have contended from 2008 to 2015.  That's a really easy trio to build around, you just need competent role players.  But now all three are doing good things for separate teams and the Hornets are rebuilding, though they were gifted Anthony Davis, at least, so their future is bright.

Don't forget that Chandler was severely hampered by injuries after the Hornets' best season.  Then Chris Paul missed half a season after they traded Chandler.  And Peja completely imploded as a productive basketball player in the mean time.

[Who]

I mean Chris Paul had greater success in New Orleans with David West and Tyson Chandler than he has had in L.A. with what most would agree is a more talented team on the whole. 

Considering what David West and Chandler have done since they parted ways with Chris Paul, I think it's safe to say people underrated West and Chandler because they were playing with Paul.

Honestly, even now I think I'd rather have a starting frontcourt of West and Chandler playing with CP3 than Griffin and Jordan.  More well rounded / balanced scoring and vastly superior defense.

I think I'd prefer Peja Stojakovic in his prime (28-30) over a slightly older Caron Butler.  And Matt Barnes vs Bonzi Wells / Rasual Butler / Mo Pete is eh.  Not a big deal.

Actually, thinking about it now that Hornets team is a stunning example of mismanagement.   Chris Paul, David West, and Tyson Chandler should have contended from 2008 to 2015.  That's a really easy trio to build around, you just need competent role players.  But now all three are doing good things for separate teams and the Hornets are rebuilding, though they were gifted Anthony Davis, at least, so their future is bright.

Agreed.

I would take the Hornets core -- a big four of CP3, Tyson Chandler, David West and Peja Stojakovic -- over the Clippers two man core -- CP3 and Blake Griffin (and D.Jordan + C.Butler).

I think Chris Paul was better back then than he is now too. More explosive physically. Harder to contain. He seems easier for defenders to bother nowadays.

That 56 win season was Peja's last strong season though. Final year where he was one of the top ten SFs in the league. He faded fast from there. Soon became a liability as a starter. So that big four became a big three. No replacement for Peja which dropped New Orleans from realistic contender to quality playoff team.

Mo Peterson was a decent role player his first year in New Orleans before he too began to fade physically. I'd take Mo Pete as my starting two guard over any of the Clippers options. And then they signed Posey who declined much quicker than expected. Losing those three wings (Peja) quality play (to old age) really put hurt on the Hornets wing play.

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I would give the Clippers a big edge to their bench play though.

LAC have an advantage with backup guards Eric Bledsoe and Jamal Crawford. Jannero Pargo was over-rated on that squad. I'd give New Orleans the nod with Bonzi Wells (who I have always been a fan of) over Matt Barnes. I thought Bonzi was a really underrated part of that team after joining them in the second half of the season. Really reinforced their bench unit. But that backup SF battle (Bonzi vs M.Barnes) is at least competitive unlike the four other bench slots which are firmly in the Clippers' favour.

Hornets backup big men were well dodgy. Hilton Armstrong was their main guy. Ryan Hollins is probably better than him nevermind Lamar Odom and Ronny Turiaf. Melvin Ely was the other big. Another non-entity. Hornets never addressed their lack of quality backup bigs. Very disappointing.

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I really hated how that Hornets front office started to trade away all their draft picks in the hopes that veteran role players on long term contacts -- which screwed up their cap flexibility as well as robbing them of their trade assets and negating their ability to make a larger more beneficial trade.

Sold Darrell Arthur that summer in 2008. Then had a late lottery pick which they traded for two later picks (Brackin and Pondexter). Then they got Darren Collison and traded him away too only weeks after 19ppg and 9apg on 48.5% FG% and 43.5% 3FG% as a starter while playing half a season in that role due to CP3's injuries.

Not to the mention the wasted late lottery picks on Hilton Armstrong, Cedric Simmons and failure to develop Julian Wright. Plus the trade of JR Smith after he made the All-Rookie team right out of high school because Coach Scott had a personality problem with him.

What terrible use of draft picks + lack of patience in rebuilding that team post-Peja around their three star players.

Terrible management.

[BballTim]

I truly believe that the rule changes, the increase in popularity, and the expansion that happened beginning in the early 90's have changed the way the game is played.  Nash and Rose have three MVP's between them and have never even played in the finals.  Stockton, Payton, and Kidd didn't win in their primes (and Stockton never won).  Paul and Williams also have never even made a finals.  You are talking about some of the greatest PG's in the history of the game.  During the last 20 years, Malone and Barkley are the only all time great players at any other position that haven't won a title while in their prime.  Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, James, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Olajuwon, and Bryant all have. 

  Pippen and Robinson needed to be put on teams that had better players than them to win titles, and KG had to be teamed up with multiple very good players to win one. Again, while you won't admit it, you have a very small sample size that would easily be skewed in completely different directions if you add or subtract 1 or two players from the mix, and you deliberately set your cutoff point at a time right before the data turns against you. Since you have no idea whether swapping out many title winning all-stars with great point guards would increase or decrease the team's chances of winning a title you have no reason to believe top point guards are "worthless" other than your small sample of data.

[Moranis]

I truly believe that the rule changes, the increase in popularity, and the expansion that happened beginning in the early 90's have changed the way the game is played.  Nash and Rose have three MVP's between them and have never even played in the finals.  Stockton, Payton, and Kidd didn't win in their primes (and Stockton never won).  Paul and Williams also have never even made a finals.  You are talking about some of the greatest PG's in the history of the game.  During the last 20 years, Malone and Barkley are the only all time great players at any other position that haven't won a title while in their prime.  Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, James, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Olajuwon, and Bryant all have. 

  Pippen and Robinson needed to be put on teams that had better players than them to win titles, and KG had to be teamed up with multiple very good players to win one. Again, while you won't admit it, you have a very small sample size that would easily be skewed in completely different directions if you add or subtract 1 or two players from the mix, and you deliberately set your cutoff point at a time right before the data turns against you. Since you have no idea whether swapping out many title winning all-stars with great point guards would increase or decrease the team's chances of winning a title you have no reason to believe top point guards are "worthless" other than your small sample of data.

Pippen and Robinson won titles on the teams that drafted them.  Sure they had great players with them, but that is almost always the case with title teams.  Payton had great players in Seattle, but he was the teams best player and they didn't win crap.  Nash was a 2 time MVP on highly talented teams and never made the finals.  Kidd was the best player on his teams and didn't win anything until he wasn't his teams best player later in his career.  Having your PG be your teams best player unless your name is Magic or Isiah is not conducive to winning a title and you can go all the way back to the beginning of the NBA on that one. 

You can take out Kobe and MJ and the SG's still have championship/all star season from Ginobli, Wade, Allen, and Wade and runners-up from Drexler (he may have been a SF that year), Majerle, Starks, Miller, Iverson, and Wade.

Take out Shaq and you still have the Dream twice, Big Ben, Duncan, and Gasol with Ratliff, Big Ben, and Howard the losers.

Take out Duncan's PF years and you still get Dirk, Bosh, and KG with Malone, Davis, Dirk, Lewis, KG, and Bosh the losers.

[bfrombleacher]

Pacers could pursue Jennings...or go Jennings->Lakers, Nash->Pacers.


As for the Chris Paul supporting cast discussion, didn't people call Rose's supporting cast bad? Proves ESPN's hype machine is nothing, a good team needs substance.

[Mencius]

Rondo is a bad fit with Stephenson.  Neither one can shoot and that team needs as much spacing as it can get.

That's true.  If they had some good shooters, that would really open things up for their bigs.  But the OP has a point about them desperately needing a good PG.  Even somebody barely better than average probably would have put them over the Heat this year.  I wouldn't want to give up Rondo either, but thought during the series that if the Pacers had Rondo, it'd have been all over for Miami (bad fit with Stephenson and all).

I hope they do get a good PG.  Anything to knock off Miami is good in my book.

[bfrombleacher]

Rondo is a bad fit with Stephenson.  Neither one can shoot and that team needs as much spacing as it can get.

AB worked well with Rondo.

Am excited for the Green/Rondo combo. Rondo needs offensive talent, regardless of them being jump shooters or not. The likes of Courtney Lee and Bass just haven't cut it.

[BballTim]

I truly believe that the rule changes, the increase in popularity, and the expansion that happened beginning in the early 90's have changed the way the game is played.  Nash and Rose have three MVP's between them and have never even played in the finals.  Stockton, Payton, and Kidd didn't win in their primes (and Stockton never won).  Paul and Williams also have never even made a finals.  You are talking about some of the greatest PG's in the history of the game.  During the last 20 years, Malone and Barkley are the only all time great players at any other position that haven't won a title while in their prime.  Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, James, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, Olajuwon, and Bryant all have. 

  Pippen and Robinson needed to be put on teams that had better players than them to win titles, and KG had to be teamed up with multiple very good players to win one. Again, while you won't admit it, you have a very small sample size that would easily be skewed in completely different directions if you add or subtract 1 or two players from the mix, and you deliberately set your cutoff point at a time right before the data turns against you. Since you have no idea whether swapping out many title winning all-stars with great point guards would increase or decrease the team's chances of winning a title you have no reason to believe top point guards are "worthless" other than your small sample of data.

Pippen and Robinson won titles on the teams that drafted them.  Sure they had great players with them, but that is almost always the case with title teams.  Payton had great players in Seattle, but he was the teams best player and they didn't win crap.  Nash was a 2 time MVP on highly talented teams and never made the finals.  Kidd was the best player on his teams and didn't win anything until he wasn't his teams best player later in his career.  Having your PG be your teams best player unless your name is Magic or Isiah is not conducive to winning a title and you can go all the way back to the beginning of the NBA on that one. 

You can take out Kobe and MJ and the SG's still have championship/all star season from Ginobli, Wade, Allen, and Wade and runners-up from Drexler (he may have been a SF that year), Majerle, Starks, Miller, Iverson, and Wade.

Take out Shaq and you still have the Dream twice, Big Ben, Duncan, and Gasol with Ratliff, Big Ben, and Howard the losers.

Take out Duncan's PF years and you still get Dirk, Bosh, and KG with Malone, Davis, Dirk, Lewis, KG, and Bosh the losers.

  Over the last 30 or so years the players who were the best player on more than 1 title team were Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. Players with 1 title are Dirk, KG, Wade, Billups and (if you want to go back that far) Moses. Whether you have one of those players matters much more than whether the second best player plays a particular position. It's almost a "forest vs trees" situation, to the point that you feel that the statement that taking out MJ and Kobe leaves you with 1 best player and 5-6 good 2nd bananas supports your case. Also, "all-star" is fairly arbitrary (anyone could find plenty of non-all-star pgs better than Starks or Majerle for instance) as is your designation of who plays what position.

  But beyond the amount of credit you're giving to supporting players and your small sample size it's still worth pointing out that the measure of whether your claim is correct is whether swapping out some of the other all-stars for all-star point guards would somehow lessen that team's title chances, and you've admitted you have no idea whether it's true or not.

 

[GreenEnvy]

Rondo is a bad fit with Stephenson.  Neither one can shoot and that team needs as much spacing as it can get.

AB worked well with Rondo.

Am excited for the Green/Rondo combo. Rondo needs offensive talent, regardless of them being jump shooters or not. The likes of Courtney Lee and Bass just haven't cut it.

AB would not have been that good last season had it not been for his otherworldly D. Yeah he cut well and hit his open threes, but anyone can really do that, especially Lee.

And you are saying good shooters like Lee and Bass are not good enough for Rondo? So what, Rondo needs four excellent offensive players around him to "cut it?" A great PG should be able to turn decent players into scoring threats, as he should know their sweet spots.

In 2007-08, Rondo did that perfectly. He got the ball to his teammates quick where they wanted it. If they couldn't get a shot, they moved it. Since then, he dominates the ball until he sees an available shot. I don't know if he doesn't trust anyone else beyond KG and Pierce of is he really is assist-hunting, but he makes it harder than it has to be.

He's probably the best passer in the game and I believe his court vision is far superior than anyone, but he dominates the ball too much, and I don't think it's fair to blame guys like Lee and Bass for that.