Interesting comments from Dr J about how PG's control the offense(Rondo)

[mmmmm]

To me, this Rondo spends the whole time dribbling and ruins the offense stuff is right up there with the

Rindo doesn't hold the ball any more or less than the other great PGs in this league. But what he does do is something Erving did talk about. He gets the players the ball where they like to shoot it, in a position to most quickly get a shot off, and he gets the ball to the man with the mismatch. He's maybe the best in the league at these things.

Funny. You'd think we weren't 20-23 with a ball-stopping point guard this year.

This one definitely goes in my "Rondo: Urban Legend" file.

  Funny, you'd think we took more of our shots late in the shot clock than other teams with a ball-stopping point guard controlling the ball on every possession. Or maybe that the percentage of our shots that came late in the shot clock would have gone way down after he left the lineup. Neither of those happened, because this is sitting in your "Rondo: Urban Legends" file even though your idea of what was happening on the court is verifiably false.

or that several other players on the team that were expected to score were stinking up the joint before Rondo went out.  -->Lee, Green, PP, JET, Bass.  No one was hitting shots that they should have been hitting.  the improved record didn't come from rondo leaving but from PP and Green (mostly) starting to make their shots.

This^

BBallTim and slamtheking both speaking truth here.

And in the playoffs, we didn't hit our shots and we lost.

As Doc always says:  It's a make/miss league.

[mmmmm]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

[thirstyboots18]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

I agree with mmmmm here.  When Rondo has had post players, they have gotten the ball where they needed to get it.  Even Wilcox was on the receiving end of some nice passes from Rondo.  Rondo made Shaq look like the Shaq of 10 years ago.  I have always said Ray moved as well without the ball as before his ankle problems, and he received some nice passes under the basket for layups and up and unders, too.  I am beginning to hate the jumpers almost as much as I have grown to hate the three.  Lazy and showing fear of the other team's defense.  I say earn three the hard way, with an and one.  If you have been watching the postgame, the Pacers are having the best luck against the Heat by going to the rim!  That is what good teams do, IMO.  That is what the Celtics used to do.  Take threes, if you want....but don't "settle" for threes.  There is a difference.

[nickagneta]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

So what you are saying is it can only be what you said and not both? If more mid range shots are being taken than 3's or post shots then the ball can not be sticking in the hands of players like Pierce or Green or Bass who do not go to the rim a lot and take a ton of mid range shots?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but one of the reasons for the shots being taken where they are might be because of players who like taking mid range jumpers having the ball stick in their hands and do not make the extra pass.

[mmmmm]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

So what you are saying is it can only be what you said and not both? If more mid range shots are being taken than 3's or post shots then the ball can not be sticking in the hands of players like Pierce or Green or Bass who do not go to the rim a lot and take a ton of mid range shots?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but one of the reasons for the shots being taken where they are might be because of players who like taking mid range jumpers having the ball stick in their hands and do not make the extra pass.

What I'm saying is that that "extra pass is not being made" because there is no one consistently working down in the post to pass it _too_.  And there is no attack on the rim by wings because there is no one working down in the post to push a body along the baseline or to set a baseline screen in order to expose a look at the rim for perimeter slashers.  Brandon Bass just doesn't play a strong low-post or baseline game.  He's always out, 12-15 feet from the basket.

Shots at the rim are generated mostly in fast break, post-up, p&R, baseline screens & weak-side cuts.   We had our fair share of fast break points (we were ranked 15th in fast-break efficiency and 16th in fast-break points per game).   But we had below-average share of the other plays, especially post-up & baseline plays.

Those are reflections of our lack of low-post personnel.   

Note also that that lack affects the ability of guys like Pierce and Green to attack the rim.

Even with Perkins - who is not to be confused with a great offensive player, one of our bread and butter plays was the baseline screen.  He was strong and could both push a defender out of the paint and pick defenders off.  That probably accounted for 3 or 4 plays per game - very high percentage shots (~70%) for Ray, Pierce or Rondo.   Replace those with instead taking 3 or 4 low-efficiency (~42%) jumpers and that difference eventually adds up.

[BballTim]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Yes, this is my criticism of Rondo.  He tends to hold the ball until he can make a pass that leads directly to a shot.  He is good at this and often this works out well.

Better though is a team where everyone is passing to just make the next pass and to keep the ball (and the people) moving.

The problem is that once Rondo doesn't have the ball, he is far less effective.  He will get some offensive rebounds which is great but he doesn't really occupy a defender.  Better more consistent straight up shooting is the only thing that will change this.

  I wonder if people who talk about Rondo not occupying a defender when he doesn't have the ball imagine that opponents stick to most players like they're Ray Allen on the 3 point line. Because they don't. Players lay off of Rondo when he has the ball because they want him to shoot, which is somewhat unusual for an all-star pg. They lay off most players who aren't near the basket and don't have the ball.

Rondo is a good but flawed player.  If he improves on his flaws, he will be a better player.  At this point, his flaws are well known to the league so teams can exploit these flaws.

  First of all Rondo's flaws as a player were well known to the league in 2008. Since then he's become one of the better players in the league and a top performer in the playoffs on a regular basis. Clearly he's able to succeed in spite of his flaws, unless you're claiming that he's developed new flaws or that you think the league just figured them out.

  And how exactly do they exploit his flaws? Does giving Rondo room to shoot keep him from getting into the lane? No, he does that more than almost any other player in the league, even in the playoffs against top defensive teams. Does playing off of him stop him from passing the ball or getting assists? Clearly not.

[BballTim]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

So what you are saying is it can only be what you said and not both? If more mid range shots are being taken than 3's or post shots then the ball can not be sticking in the hands of players like Pierce or Green or Bass who do not go to the rim a lot and take a ton of mid range shots?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but one of the reasons for the shots being taken where they are might be because of players who like taking mid range jumpers having the ball stick in their hands and do not make the extra pass.

What I'm saying is that that "extra pass is not being made" because there is no one consistently working down in the post to pass it _too_.  And there is no attack on the rim by wings because there is no one working down in the post to push a body along the baseline or to set a baseline screen in order to expose a look at the rim for perimeter slashers.  Brandon Bass just doesn't play a strong low-post or baseline game.  He's always out, 12-15 feet from the basket.

Shots at the rim are generated mostly in fast break, post-up, p&R, baseline screens & weak-side cuts.   We had our fair share of fast break points (we were ranked 15th in fast-break efficiency and 16th in fast-break points per game).   But we had below-average share of the other plays, especially post-up & baseline plays.

Those are reflections of our lack of low-post personnel.   

  You also get more put-backs off the offensive glass with low post players.

[mmmmm]

What I would love to see is for the whole team to get on the same page and see the pass after the first pass from Rondo. 




I still think some of the best offensive running PGs do not always get all the assists.  Those are the PGs with the vision to see two or three passes ahead with a team they trust to make those passes.  (I am not saying Rondo can't or doesn't do this)

Agree 100%. And in the past that has happened. Pierce KG and Allen were still making the extra pass for years. But Danny started to add players to the team where the ball got stuck in their hands. Players like Rasheed and Bass and Green and I think as Rondo grew as a player, Allen and Pierce started letting the ball stick in their hands because they wanted their shots too.

Since 2011, this offense has gotten worse because I think that extra pass is not being made.

No, during that span our offense has gotten worse because we took a smaller and smaller percentage of our shots 'at rim' and from beyond the 3PT arc.  Too much reliance on long 2PT jumpers.  I've done the plots - the correlation is extremely tight.

And the change in shot type corelates exactly with the absence of a consistent low-post scoring option in our personnel.   We have given a lot of the frontcourt minutes to guys like Brandon Bass - who is good player, but offensively is redundant with KG's stretch big game.

We miss Shaq.   

Sully provided a small light in the tunnel last season.  If he comes back 100% and regains his starting spot next to KG - that could be a big shot in the arm for our offense.

I'd love to see a fully healthy lineup of KG+Sully+Green+Pierce+RR.   That unit should definitely be able to score on anybody.

I don't believe we ever played that 5-man unit even once last season - they just weren't all healthy and playing effectively at the same time.

So what you are saying is it can only be what you said and not both? If more mid range shots are being taken than 3's or post shots then the ball can not be sticking in the hands of players like Pierce or Green or Bass who do not go to the rim a lot and take a ton of mid range shots?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but one of the reasons for the shots being taken where they are might be because of players who like taking mid range jumpers having the ball stick in their hands and do not make the extra pass.

What I'm saying is that that "extra pass is not being made" because there is no one consistently working down in the post to pass it _too_.  And there is no attack on the rim by wings because there is no one working down in the post to push a body along the baseline or to set a baseline screen in order to expose a look at the rim for perimeter slashers.  Brandon Bass just doesn't play a strong low-post or baseline game.  He's always out, 12-15 feet from the basket.

Shots at the rim are generated mostly in fast break, post-up, p&R, baseline screens & weak-side cuts.   We had our fair share of fast break points (we were ranked 15th in fast-break efficiency and 16th in fast-break points per game).   But we had below-average share of the other plays, especially post-up & baseline plays.

Those are reflections of our lack of low-post personnel.   

  You also get more put-backs off the offensive glass with low post players.

Yes.  'Forgot to add that!  Very true.

All those little aspects have been missing from our offense because we just haven't been able to keep a true big man who plays close to the basket healthy and on the floor.

[wdleehi]

Of course this team needs another big man. 



This teams offensive issues are not a single fix type issue.

[nickagneta]

Of course this team needs another big man. 



This teams offensive issues are not a single fix type issue.

Which is the point I am trying to make. Yes. what mmmm is saying is true. But having watched how this offense worked pre and post 2010 I truly believe the addition of players that don't make the extra pass and Ray and Pierce not making the extra pass as much lead to the decline also. I don't think the offense sputtering for the last three years is a one thing simple fix.