How much would you pay for a player with 2012/13 avgs: 18.6pts, 6.3rebs, 4.8ast

[kgainez]

I guess I would rather get rid of an expiring 15 million that can no longer be the star of our offense and get 2-3 decent guys who can be developed into contributions for an impending rebuild.

guess that makes too much sense for sentimental/delusional fans. but whatevs.

No one is handing out valuable assets for Paul Pierce.  What you can expect is Marshon Brooks and Kris Humphries and maybe a second rounder.  Teams like Golden State are not pulling the trigger on trading guys like Harrison Barnes.  Instead of acquiring garbage, it is better to let them play and help our younger guys and do something with the cap space when they retire.

*gasp*
a decent guard and a decent big??? and another young guy???
marshon brooks is young...and didn't we draft him?
marshon avgs 12.6/3.6 rebounds/ 2.3 assists last year in 28ish minutes...he's been scaled back to half that and is producing around half that this year. could be a fine back up to Rondo and even T-Will if he stays.
kris hump avg 13.8 and 11 last year in 35ish minutes last year...is currently playing trash/backup minutes to arguably the best center in the game (Lopez), as well as the best rebounder in the game (Evans) at the moment, so his season numbers have taken a hit. I mean, in his past 2 seasons he averaged a double double. also, see injuries. Kris also isn't a shot blocker and is not particularly who i'd LOVE to see in Celtic's green, but that's not my decision.

i'm not huge fans of either but my point was that if a rebuild is going to happen, and we aren't winning with or without paul, there's no point in keeping him and beating a dead horse. get some younger guys who can contribute and get this party started.

[kgainez]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

At least someone gets it.

I've been "pounding the pavement" about this for a while now.  There is just no benefit to trading away Pierce and KG, unless you're getting a star player in return (which ain't happening).

The best move the C's can make, is to trade our dead-weight contracts (Lee/Terry/Bass) and try to parlay Green into something better.   The goal should be to have as much cap space as possible for 2014.

The goal should not be taking on more long-tern salary, just for the sake of a draft pick(s) that may or may not pan out.  Worst comes to worst, we strike out in FA, and then go nuclear with the roster.

i dont get this and i don't think you're paying attention to some of our reasons for getting rid of Paul.

I am of the portion of this board that's for rebuilding and being OKAY with NOT being a contender, at least for a handful of years. I also happen to think that (and these are kind of varying views) this team won't be as bad as people assume we would be. I feel like with a core of Rondo/JG/AB and the pieces that we have such as a Sully/Bass/Lee, we could win at least 35 games. Others think we'll struggle for 20.

At any rate, my point is we aren't winning with these guys. So I'd say get rid of PP (and KG if you want) and start a smaller scale rebuild where we keep and feature guys like Jeff and Rondo and bring in contributory pieces. Guys like Lee/Bass are guys who can obviously contribute. Bass knows our system and, as much as I hated him this season, kinda made his money in the playoffs and latter part of the season.

Now if you're moving guys like Lee/Bass/Terry for similar pieces or big guys, I'm cool with that.

And if you move PP and you can land a guy like Millsap or Big Al, along with Rondo and Jeff, I think we can easily be 7th or 8th seed in the East. So you still have the ability to 'overachieve' as Celtics tend to do in the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

Approximately 7.5 units of player value currency.

The logic in the OP is misleading. Nobody trades a young player for an old player with equal production.

Whoever expects equal "value" back in a trade is bound to be disappointed. We´re long past the point at which we can expect them to net a piece in return which could accelerate our rebuilding process.

You trade them to create space to build new values, that´s all.

...'Cause the old ones ain´t cutting it.

That's not necessarily true.
If moving KG and Pierce meant getting back a lottery pick that would accelerate the rebuilding process.
It's what Danny wanted from the Nets when they wanted Pierce- Nets said no.

I wonder if Dallas doesn't end up signing Dwight or CP3 if they decide to go for a one or two season run to finish Nowitzki's career? They've got a late lottery pick and some decent young assets.

ie:

Pierce + Garnett
for
J.Craeder
Lottery pick
Shawn Marion

That's a win for us. Just need the right team and the right situation.

After the first 2-4 picks next year picks, if you are selecting 5-20, you are probably getting as close a chance of getting a future NBA all-Star as you ever will that deep in the draft.

Wiggins
Parker
Smart
Randle

are probably your top 4 picks. I think all could be franchise types, Smart less so but only because he's a PG.


Then you have guys that didn't come out this year that would have been 1st rounders this year and maybe after another year of seasoning will be even better like:

Cauley Stein
MacAdoo
McDermott
McGary
Robinson III

Then there's the other one and dones that will come out

Harrison
Harrison
Young
Selden
Vonleh
Walker

And then there's the guys like this year's MCW or Oladipo that were okay freshmen that blossomed into high possible picks. Those are hard to pick but there could be a few.

So to get one of the franchise guys you basically have to be the worst team in the league(which guarantees a 4th pick minimum) or be lucky enough to land a less than 1% shot of being put in the top 3 by winning the lottery or getting 2nd or 3rd.

That whole scenario is based purely on luck. We are not the Cavs or Pelicans or Magic(who I am convinced will win it this year). Stern has no reason to gift the #1 pick to Boston like he did after Lebron left Cleveland, Paul left NO, or he will because Howard left the Magic.

Tanking and being bad is no guarantee. But if the Celtics are just not great next year, kinda like they are now, they will probably get a pick just outside the lottery and still land a very, very, very talented draft pick that they wouldn't normally get at that position.

As long as Sully, Rondo, Bradley and Green are in place, they will be 22, 28, 23, and 27 years old respectfully, as well as this year's first round pick, the core will be young, have a former and current All-Star, former All-Defense members, at least one possible 20 PPG scorer(maybe more) and a ton of talent and room to grow with massive cap flexibility to add a superstar free agent.

The sure thing move of being patient through one more year really is the most logical and sure road to contending recovery.

[kozlodoev]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

How is it going to hinder anything, when Courtney Lee is pretty much the only contract that lasts past the last year of Garnett's. Unless of course you count Green -- whom I consider part of the rebuilding process.

[nickagneta]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

How is it going to hinder anything, when Courtney Lee is pretty much the only contract that lasts past the last year of Garnett's. Unless of course you count Green -- whom I consider part of the rebuilding process.

Because I don't see KG playing out that year and retiring and if that is correct,  that leaves over $23 million in payroll due just Lee, Bass, and terry in 2014-15 and 2015-16. That, on top of the remaining salary(Rondo, Green, Sully, Bradley, 1st round pick this year, Melo) inhibits the Celtics cap flexibility.

I only want to wait one year for the cap space to be here, not two.

[kozlodoev]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

How is it going to hinder anything, when Courtney Lee is pretty much the only contract that lasts past the last year of Garnett's. Unless of course you count Green -- whom I consider part of the rebuilding process.

Because I don't see KG playing out that year and retiring and if that is correct,  that leaves over $23 million in payroll due just Lee, Bass, and terry in 2014-15 and 2015-16. That, on top of the remaining salary(Rondo, Green, Sully, Bradley, 1st round pick this year, Melo) inhibits the Celtics cap flexibility.

I only want to wait one year for the cap space to be here, not two.

Sure, but those contracts' lengths were tailored to Garnett's. So if he retires early, he _is_ the reason, in a way.

[BballTim]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

How is it going to hinder anything, when Courtney Lee is pretty much the only contract that lasts past the last year of Garnett's. Unless of course you count Green -- whom I consider part of the rebuilding process.

Because I don't see KG playing out that year and retiring and if that is correct,  that leaves over $23 million in payroll due just Lee, Bass, and terry in 2014-15 and 2015-16. That, on top of the remaining salary(Rondo, Green, Sully, Bradley, 1st round pick this year, Melo) inhibits the Celtics cap flexibility.

I only want to wait one year for the cap space to be here, not two.

  Stop scaring people like that.


  Those guys all come off the books after the 14-15 season.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Jeff Green money plus 2-3 million for the leadership. Reckon the most important thing is to get under the hard cap.

[kozlodoev]

Jeff Green money plus 2-3 million for the leadership. Reckon the most important thing is to get under the hard cap.

We're not getting under the cap until 15-16.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Oops meant the luxury tax threshold, or whatever it is the 74.3 million level from last reason was being called.

[guava_wrench]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

At least someone gets it.

I've been "pounding the pavement" about this for a while now.  There is just no benefit to trading away Pierce and KG, unless you're getting a star player in return (which ain't happening).

The best move the C's can make, is to trade our dead-weight contracts (Lee/Terry/Bass) and try to parlay Green into something better.   The goal should be to have as much cap space as possible for 2014.

The goal should not be taking on more long-tern salary, just for the sake of a draft pick(s) that may or may not pan out.  Worst comes to worst, we strike out in FA, and then go nuclear with the roster.

Parlay Green into something better? Trade dead-weight?

This sounds to me like the following investment advice: trade someone $10 for $20. Good luck finding the trade partner.

[Yogi]

I guess I would rather get rid of an expiring 15 million that can no longer be the star of our offense and get 2-3 decent guys who can be developed into contributions for an impending rebuild.

guess that makes too much sense for sentimental/delusional fans. but whatevs.

No one is handing out valuable assets for Paul Pierce.  What you can expect is Marshon Brooks and Kris Humphries and maybe a second rounder.  Teams like Golden State are not pulling the trigger on trading guys like Harrison Barnes.  Instead of acquiring garbage, it is better to let them play and help our younger guys and do something with the cap space when they retire.

*gasp*
a decent guard and a decent big??? and another young guy???
marshon brooks is young...and didn't we draft him?
marshon avgs 12.6/3.6 rebounds/ 2.3 assists last year in 28ish minutes...he's been scaled back to half that and is producing around half that this year. could be a fine back up to Rondo and even T-Will if he stays.
kris hump avg 13.8 and 11 last year in 35ish minutes last year...is currently playing trash/backup minutes to arguably the best center in the game (Lopez), as well as the best rebounder in the game (Evans) at the moment, so his season numbers have taken a hit. I mean, in his past 2 seasons he averaged a double double. also, see injuries. Kris also isn't a shot blocker and is not particularly who i'd LOVE to see in Celtic's green, but that's not my decision.

i'm not huge fans of either but my point was that if a rebuild is going to happen, and we aren't winning with or without paul, there's no point in keeping him and beating a dead horse. get some younger guys who can contribute and get this party started.

Kris Humphries is garbage that makes 12 million a year.  He is maybe worth 2-3 million a year, but to be honest he would have to pay me to suffer through even the thought that he is a Celtic. 

Marshon Brooks is just awful.  He puts up average numbers in a below average way.  We most certainly drafted him for the Nets and that's where he belongs.  He couldn't beat a 40 year old Jerry Stackhouse off the bench for two different coaches. 

Neither of them adds anything towards a rebuild, and simply letting Paul retire a Celtic after next year would give us more cap space.  Unless you think Marshon Brooks is a piece we can add to our future worth trading the Captain to a division rival for this is not a trade worth one second of thought. 

[nickagneta]

KG and Pierce are not the problem for rebuilding this team. They are only here one more year, tops. Its the salary Danny gave away last year for 2014 and 2015 that will hinder this team rebuilding.

In all honesty, what happens on the court next year is less important than getting the long term payroll off the books.

How is it going to hinder anything, when Courtney Lee is pretty much the only contract that lasts past the last year of Garnett's. Unless of course you count Green -- whom I consider part of the rebuilding process.

Because I don't see KG playing out that year and retiring and if that is correct,  that leaves over $23 million in payroll due just Lee, Bass, and terry in 2014-15 and 2015-16. That, on top of the remaining salary(Rondo, Green, Sully, Bradley, 1st round pick this year, Melo) inhibits the Celtics cap flexibility.

I only want to wait one year for the cap space to be here, not two.

  Stop scaring people like that.


  Those guys all come off the books after the 14-15 season.

No actually all of those guys do not come off the books after 2014-15. Lee is still owed $5.7 million in 2015-16. If we trade those contracts for expiring contracts, we get cap flexibility at least one year earlier.

[mmmmm]

I think a lot of folks just don't understand the value of what they have versus what is out there in the rest of the league.

It is perfectly fair to say that Paul Pierce' level of play has declined compared to who HE was years ago.  He's human.  But when trying to decide his value, it is worthwhile to compare him to his actual peers today (instead of just his HoF career of yesterday).   Here are some numbers I posted elsewhere on this:

Among full-time Small Forwards, who played at least 40 games and averaged at least 25 minutes, here are Pierce’ rankings in various efficiency stats:

Points per minute: 4th (Only Carmelo, Durant and Lebron scored more per minute)
Assists per minute: 2nd (behind only Lebron)
Assists+: 2nd (Gives extra weight to assists leading to a 3PT shot)
PER: 4th
APER: 4th
NBA Efficiency Rating: 5th
Assist Rate (per possession): 5th
Defensive Rebound Rate: 8th (Heck, PP was 5th in DRR among ALL NBA players listed under 6’ 9" who played at least 2000 minutes. PP is listed as 6’ 6").
FTA/FGA ratio: 6th

That set of stats is pretty compelling. In raw scoring, he was definitely behind Carmelo, Lebron and Durant but ahead of everyone else at the SF position. In passing (assists) he was well ahead of both Carmelo and Durant. Arguably, his assist numbers would have been even higher if the Celtics as a team didn’t shoot so [dang] poorly. Across various other stats, PP was ahead of those three in some and behind in others. He had a career year in defensive rebounding.

Overall, it is pretty obvious he was probably the 4th most effective SF last year. For once the PER rating gets it right.

If the question is:  Is the 4th best SF in the NBA worth 15M, then I don't see how that's really arguable.   

Arguably, since this is an entertainment business and Pierce is clearly a recognized 'name' that draws fans, he may be underpaid.

During his career, the Celtics have probably generated over 2 Billion in current dollars in basketball related revenue after player salaries.   Pierce' salary amounts to less than 8% of that.   I'll bet he's scored well over 8% of the Celtic's points during that time!!!

Now, if the question is really about how keeping Pierce and his contract impacts the rebuilding schedule, i think others have answered that.   Amnesty doesn't help us a bit (and still costs Wyc money) while potentially helping an opponent for cheap.  A buyout costs Wyc a bit less than amnesty, but helps our cap even less ... and still potentially helps an opponent for dirt cheap.   The only scenarios that make sense are to either keep Pierce or to trade him.

And the maximum value you will get out of Pierce if you trade him is likely to be at the trading deadline when the market for him will include both teams that want a big fat expiring contract as well as contending teams that need someone to put them over the hump.

Getting rid of Pierce now will net us something.  Just nothing that really makes us that much better of a team now or in the future.

And no, virginia, Wyc and his partners are not going to want to tank this season.  Tanking is expensive and costs owners lots and lots of lost revenues.   It's a huge gamble.  Just ask fans in Portland, Oregon.

Even if we lose Pierce and KG, this team still will have too much talent to end up in the bottom 4 spots, which is where you need to be to get a guarantee top tier pick.

Bring 'em back.   Try things out and see where you are mid-season.   If it's not working, trade Pierce at the deadline.   It is working, you make a run at it because if a team is healthy, anything can happen when you get in the playoffs.

Danny has structured his contracts to give him maximum rebuilding flexibility when the vast bulk of our contracts all come off the books in just two years.  And one or more of those could be traded before then.  We are in no way tied down to some long term albatross that is going to prevent rebuilding for 20 years.   People need to chill and be patient.