People Criticizing Doc

[ejk3489]

Do you see what Thibs is doing with the Bulls?

Overachieve versus a LeBron led team in the playoffs? Haven't we done that for the past 4 years?

Do you know that the Warriors are up on the Spurs right now?

And just blew a 15 point lead with only 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter...sound familiar?

Have you seen what Frank Vogel has done with his group?

Getting them past the Atlanta Hawks in the first round? Congrats, I guess.

pretty sure we only overachieved last year with a completely different squad. for starters, there was a Rondo and a Ray Allen. Year before that we got bounced in the 2nd round by the Heatles...we were down 0-2 before the elbow thing right? I don't recall.

Warriors blew a 15 point lead, but at least they had one. Also, they're in the 2nd round and we aren't.

Frank Vogel has turned a bunch of people no-one knows into a contender. #3 in the East is nothing to sneeze at. Stealing game 1 against the Knicks (who beat us, before you claim that they suck) But I'm sure you want to make everything out to be not as serious as it seems. Or whatever.

I would say that going to game 7 of the NBA finals in 2010 qualifies as overachieving...no one outside of a few Boston homers expected that. They did pretty well in 2009 as well considering the circumstances (No KG, No Powe, Scal played 20min a game, ect.)

Yeah, the Warriors are in the second round, but I don't see how that reflects badly on Doc. How many times has he led the C's to at least the 2nd round? 5 out of the last 6 years?

Also, I wouldn't call Paul George, David West, and Hibbert a bunch of nobodies. And honestly, you're right, I don't find them beating the Knicks to be that impressive. NY had no business struggling against a depleted Celtics team, and yet it took them *6 games to beat us...I wasn't shocked at all they lost game 1.

[Atzar]

they're bad because Doc won't play them and develop them.
I remember when Paul George was fair.
I remember when Nate Robinson was a scrub.
I remember when JR Smith was a nutcase.

Took a good coach to develop them and not just sit them on the bench.

Nate Robinson wasn't a scrub for us.  He was instrumental in two playoff wins, actually.  The only reason he didn't go off like he has for the Bulls is because we happened to already have an All-Star point guard. 

You also can't just say that players are bad because the coach doesn't develop them.  Not everybody is an NBA-level player. 

Doc plays the players who deserve playing time from what I've seen.  Glen Davis, Leon Powe and Jared Sullinger all played very early.  So did Rondo, to an extent.  Perk and Avery Bradley played when they were ready to contribute.  But the rest of them?  It's not coincidence that guys like Gabe Pruitt, Patrick O'Bryant, JR Giddens, Bill Walker, JaJuan Johnson haven't worked out elsewhere.  It's because they aren't good enough. 

I actually think Doc has been good at identifying and using the players who are actually good enough to contribute consistently.

[nickagneta]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

[nickagneta]

they're bad because Doc won't play them and develop them.
I remember when Paul George was fair.
I remember when Nate Robinson was a scrub.
I remember when JR Smith was a nutcase.

Took a good coach to develop them and not just sit them on the bench.

1. Everybody starts out as fair. It is the rare exception that starts out as a superstar straight from the start.
2. Nate Robinson is still a scrub. He's just a lucky hot scrub right now. My guess is he isn't playing in Chicago next year.
3. JR SMith is still a nutjob. He's just a nutjob that has a coach who's only job is too get his nutjobs to shoot as much as possible. Before this season Smith shot an average, over an 8 year career of 10.3 shots per game. This year he took 15.4 shots per game. Is it any wonder he went from averaging 12 PPG to 18 PPG this year? He shot 50% more shots and scored 50% more points. He wasn;t any more efficient or better or smarter with his shot selection. He just shot more. Same as Carmelo.

[Celtics4ever]

Nate Robinson wasn't a scrub for us.  He was instrumental in two playoff wins, actually.  The only reason he didn't go off like he has for the Bulls is because we happened to already have an All-Star point guard. 

You make it sound like he is the second coming.  The reality and not the revisionist history you present is he shot .375% from the field, .333% from the three point line and averaged 1.1 APG and 4.2 PPG.  That is hardly a key contributor and shooting that low a percentage one has to wonder if his going off would hurt the team more than help it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/nate_robinson/career_stats.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinna01/gamelog/2010/

His carrying us amounted to 2 nine point efforts.  Hardly dominant as you present but memories and perceptions change as we age.

[BballTim]

Do you see what Thibs is doing with the Bulls?

Overachieve versus a LeBron led team in the playoffs? Haven't we done that for the past 4 years?

Do you know that the Warriors are up on the Spurs right now?

And just blew a 15 point lead with only 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter...sound familiar?

Have you seen what Frank Vogel has done with his group?

Getting them past the Atlanta Hawks in the first round? Congrats, I guess.

pretty sure we only overachieved last year with a completely different squad. for starters, there was a Rondo and a Ray Allen. Year before that we got bounced in the 2nd round by the Heatles...we were down 0-2 before the elbow thing right? I don't recall.

  Last year the only healthy rotation players were Rondo, KG, Bass and Dooling. Our shooting guards were an old guy hobbling on a bad ankle and a young guy who's shoulders kept popping out of joint.

[slamtheking]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

agreed - even Doc's defenders cannot (rationally) debate this point and it's one that infuriates me with Doc and the way he runs this team.  The Celtics have not played with a competitive spirit in the regular season since the 2009 season. 
In 2010 I attributed this to the Sheed mentality but this has carried over for a few more years.  Can't blame Sheed anymore.  There's hardly anyone left from that roster so at this point I have to point the finger at Doc as the culprit for not getting this team ready to go night in and night out.
I find the best-prepared teams for winning close games are the ones that play to win during the regular season that figure out what works and what doesn't.  That also applies to knowing how to maintain 4th quarter leads.  This team needs to desperately get back to that mentality to improve their ability to close out both close games and games where they have a lead going into the 4th quarter

[BballTim]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

agreed - even Doc's defenders cannot (rationally) debate this point and it's one that infuriates me with Doc and the way he runs this team.  The Celtics have not played with a competitive spirit in the regular season since the 2009 season. 

  One thing that really hurts Doc in these conversations is that people watch every Celts games and compare his games to the few games (or more likely the reputations) of other coaches. If any of you guys want to compare the Celts record to the Bulls or the magnitude of our losses compared to theirs over the last 50 games or so of the season and then make your claims then I'd love to hear them.

  I can't wait to hear how games like the 32 point loss to Denver, 30 point loss to OKC and the 42 point loss to Sactown (not a misprint) among others happen to a team that plays hard 48 minutes a game.

 

[Fred Roberts]

I'm of the opinion that we are generally lucky to have Doc, but that he is far from perfect and fully deserving of some criticism.

We know he's a top 5 or top 10 coach, no doubt. That is an asset. But we also know he's not infallible or immune to criticism.

His fascination with small ball made me want to puke. Not getting Shav (or Wilcox or DJ) 10 minutes somewhere in each playoff game to inject some life into the team and on the boards is crazy. Doc would rather ride out tired starters than get a fresh, hungry player in there to provide a spark. It took him 4 games until he realized he needed a competent ball handler (T-Will). Many of us were screaming for T-Will to play that role. We also needed the added dash of rebounding. Slight tweaks like that could change the outcome of that Knicks series. Doc never experimented with a big line up. It's basically my way or the highway .. and the highway is under repair. Alternate routes were needed!

Overall, he's a good coach. Point being, you can still criticize. 

[nickagneta]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

agreed - even Doc's defenders cannot (rationally) debate this point and it's one that infuriates me with Doc and the way he runs this team.  The Celtics have not played with a competitive spirit in the regular season since the 2009 season. 

  One thing that really hurts Doc in these conversations is that people watch every Celts games and compare his games to the few games (or more likely the reputations) of other coaches. If any of you guys want to compare the Celts record to the Bulls or the magnitude of our losses compared to theirs over the last 50 games or so of the season and then make your claims then I'd love to hear them.

  I can't wait to hear how games like the 32 point loss to Denver, 30 point loss to OKC and the 42 point loss to Sactown (not a misprint) among others happen to a team that plays hard 48 minutes a game.

 

Well my comment is about Doc. I am sure other coaches have similar problems as well. I am also sure that even Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich have had games where they didn't properly have their teams prepared to play and had bad games.

I'm not sure what pointing to some bad games by Thibs has anything to do with this particular criticism of Doc. I feel that increasing horrible starts this team has is poor preparation of the mental condition of his team on a night in and night out basis.

I think most will attest to the fact I am a huge Doc fan but this is, I believe, a very fair and viable criticism of his coaching since the start of the 2009 -10 season.

[BballTim]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

agreed - even Doc's defenders cannot (rationally) debate this point and it's one that infuriates me with Doc and the way he runs this team.  The Celtics have not played with a competitive spirit in the regular season since the 2009 season. 

  One thing that really hurts Doc in these conversations is that people watch every Celts games and compare his games to the few games (or more likely the reputations) of other coaches. If any of you guys want to compare the Celts record to the Bulls or the magnitude of our losses compared to theirs over the last 50 games or so of the season and then make your claims then I'd love to hear them.

  I can't wait to hear how games like the 32 point loss to Denver, 30 point loss to OKC and the 42 point loss to Sactown (not a misprint) among others happen to a team that plays hard 48 minutes a game.

 

Well my comment is about Doc. I am sure other coaches have similar problems as well. I am also sure that even Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich have had games where they didn't properly have their teams prepared to play and had bad games.

I'm not sure what pointing to some bad games by Thibs has anything to do with this particular criticism of Doc. I feel that increasing horrible starts this team has is poor preparation of the mental condition of his team on a night in and night out basis.

I think most will attest to the fact I am a huge Doc fan but this is, I believe, a very fair and viable criticism of his coaching since the start of the 2009 -10 season.

  If someone (not you) claims that Thibs has his team play hard every game/48 minutes a game or the like it's worth pointing out that it's not a realistic view of his team, just like pointing out to people who claim we'd be much better with Pops than Doc that we've outperformed them in the playoffs most recent years. Just injecting a little reality into the conversation.

[Chief]

I think Doc is as strong as his assistant coaches. Before Thibs, he seemed like a very weak coach. During the Thibs/Frank era, Doc looked very good in the playoffs. I'm not sure if Longabardi, Hill, and Eastman are anything but yes men. 

[nickagneta]

I think Doc is as strong as his assistant coaches. Before Thibs, he seemed like a very weak coach. During the Thibs/Frank era, Doc looked very good in the playoffs. I'm not sure if Longabardi, Hill, and Eastman are anything but yes men. 

He won Coach of the Year before ever being around Thibs.

[nickagneta]

Doc's management of players is not good.

The question is, 'not good' relative to what?

Thibs in Chicago, for one.  He does run his guys into the ground but Thibs also has everyone on that team ready to contribute and play every night.

Mike

An absolute, on the spot, great criticism of Doc Rivers. You are absolutely right that over the last few years, after winning it all in 2008 and starting 2008-09 so well, Doc's preparation of this team so that they came out ready to fight and play 48 minutes faltered badly and he really hasn't done anything to make that better.

Perhaps a turnover of the personnel will assist Doc with that problem, but seldom do you fire 12 guys because of the fault one man. You fire that man.

agreed - even Doc's defenders cannot (rationally) debate this point and it's one that infuriates me with Doc and the way he runs this team.  The Celtics have not played with a competitive spirit in the regular season since the 2009 season. 

  One thing that really hurts Doc in these conversations is that people watch every Celts games and compare his games to the few games (or more likely the reputations) of other coaches. If any of you guys want to compare the Celts record to the Bulls or the magnitude of our losses compared to theirs over the last 50 games or so of the season and then make your claims then I'd love to hear them.

  I can't wait to hear how games like the 32 point loss to Denver, 30 point loss to OKC and the 42 point loss to Sactown (not a misprint) among others happen to a team that plays hard 48 minutes a game.

 

Well my comment is about Doc. I am sure other coaches have similar problems as well. I am also sure that even Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich have had games where they didn't properly have their teams prepared to play and had bad games.

I'm not sure what pointing to some bad games by Thibs has anything to do with this particular criticism of Doc. I feel that increasing horrible starts this team has is poor preparation of the mental condition of his team on a night in and night out basis.

I think most will attest to the fact I am a huge Doc fan but this is, I believe, a very fair and viable criticism of his coaching since the start of the 2009 -10 season.

  If someone (not you) claims that Thibs has his team play hard every game/48 minutes a game or the like it's worth pointing out that it's not a realistic view of his team, just like pointing out to people who claim we'd be much better with Pops than Doc that we've outperformed them in the playoffs most recent years. Just injecting a little reality into the conversation.

Okay, I can understand that. Yeah, my guess is there is not a single coach in this league that has his team mentally prepared to play every game and every minute of every game. Its just not feasible to do. Human nature and all.

TP.

[Tgro]

This thread could just as easily be named "People Criticizing the Celtics".

I haven't been around most of the year this year, but I watched and read the forums a lot. I joined in during the playoffs. What was astounding from my point of view is the real hatred for the current state of the Celtics. It's obviously bad and hard to watch. But it's like the blame game goes down in 5 seconds.

You can't look anywhere anymore and not see a "Get rid of Doc" moment around here. But just as unsettling, is the way SOME trash the Celtics.

Being in Game threads, you couldn't get 5 minutes into a game without Doc, players and plays being labeled as Idiots, Failures, Killing Us, etc. Saying anything positive is met with "I'm over that way of thinking...etc". And this was even if we are winning OR just less than 10 behind.

It used to feel like the Celtic fans with the team, and dying hard with them and cheering them on, to feeling this year like Celtic Fan's against Celtic Fans. It was disheartening.

Not only that. But anything the Celtics done, they could have thought of better. If someone was on the floor, this person would be a better fit. If the other team went on a run, Doc couldn't call a time out fast enough.....idiot! If a play was done, this play would have worked better. If this approach was being applied, this one would have worked better....idiot!

And...if some of these things being cried about happened...(Doc calls a time out, puts cried for player in a game, runs a successful play or scheme) it becomes "See what happens when Doc listens to me!!!....idiot!!!"

It's us against us. No longer the Celtics we love against the rest of the NBA. It feels like no one is satisfied with anything and no one will be. All this was here before, but it was really bad this year during my brief stay this year. Way worse than I've ever seen it. And no, I'm not perfect. I got worked up a time or two myself. But the overall atmosphere is really pessimistic lately.

All I can say is, be careful what we wish for because it can easily happen. And just as easily as we think this team can get better, this team can get a lot worse and we could be buried in the Abyss for a decade or more once again.

I'm a Doc supporter but I'm not opposed to change if it makes sense. I love KG and Pierce and want Doc, KG and Pierce to stay, but I'm absolutely uncertain we're going to end up better than what we have been. I think we have seen greatness and we are spoiled. And we've reached the trying years and we are at a point where we either get a lot better and keep contending or we get a lot worse and no one even thinks about the Celtics without laughing. I think we are that close to either.

I just hope when we get to either side of it and we are all in the trenches, that we all cheer whatever we have on and stop calling our team a bunch of idiots.