Doc bashing

[Celtics18]

I'm curious to all the Doc bashes what options does he really have?? This is a very flawed team right now. Some people act like if Shav was playing for 38 minutes a night he would average 20 boards.
He is good in spurts but don't fool yourself into thinking he would own the paint if he played the majority of the game there was a reason why he was playing in China.

This is a team in transistion without their best player and a good young player in Sullinger.
They are relying on two guys that are well into their 30's and player in Green who doesn't show up every night. Temper your expectations Doc is the least of this teams problems right now.

If this team is in transition then their GM and ownership didn't do them any favors keeping PP and KG

I agree with that statement but the problem was KG was not waving his clause and the Pierce deal wasn't worh it so they had no choice.

I disagree.  I think Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are proving to be, and are going to continue to prove to be, a huge help in the transition of this team into the next phase of the Boston Celtics.

If this is the energy and work habits that have been instilled by PP and KG to the YG's as KG likes to call them.. how are they being a huge help? This team consistently loses to very bad teams when either KG or PP don't play. Where is the data for this?

You're asking me for the data to back up your claim?  Shouldn't you be finding that yourself?

I'm just saying.

I didn't make the original claim, you did.

I didn't make any claims about the team's record against any teams without Pierce or Garnett.

You made the claim they were going to be a huge help in the transition to the next Boston Celtics and my point was  how? and then backed up my claim by saying I haven't seen energy, toughness and the work habits that I've seen in KG and PP over the years.

I've seen plenty of energy and toughness from everyone on the team.  I guess we just see different things. 

[Celtics18]

I'm sorry, but in order for me to take doc seriously hes going to have to stop doing the most idiotic RIDICULOUS things. Like putting BASS at center. There is absolutely, NO LOGICAL REASON to put brandon freaking bass at center!!! You have KG Wilcox and Shav who can play center.

All of which is a freaking no brainer to play at center over bass! Doc is showing this year how hes the most overrated coach in the league. Dude has all this talent and has no idea what to do with it. Bass at center, what a joke this guy is.

This celtics team underachieved greatly this year and yes some of that can be excused because of injuries. However, you don't underachieve greatly without the coach having alot to do with it. Besides, back before this team had any real injuries we were still 20-23. Doc rivers, I can't stand the guy. Forget having a great coach, just give me somebody who doesn't think its a good idea to play a 6'8 power forward at center!!! JESUS MAN! Doc overrated rivers. Get him off this team now!!!.........rant over.                                           

I don't entirely agree.  Brandon Bass is our most reliable big other than KG.  There are times when he wants to go small, but also feels the need to rest KG.  In those instances,  his best option is to play Bass at center. 

It's not ideal, but he's making the best of the situation he's faced with.  I'll grant you that it worked out fairly atrociously last night, but, to be honest, I didn't see anyone on the team last night (including KG) who seemed like they were equipped to be able to handle Brook Lopez inside.

Bass might be our second most reliable big man.......but......wait for it..........NOT AT THE CENTER POSITION!!! I'm sorry I'm just not buying anything other than doc is a complete moron for putting bass at the 5. He isn't FORCED too, he CHOOSES too. Which makes him an idiot in my book.

I'm more worried about the way he's been handling KG's minutes this year than the fact that he's occasionally been playing Brandon Bass at center.  I loved the way he utilized the 5-5-5 plan down the stretch of last season.  This year, however, I feel like there have been too many instances where he's strayed from the plan, and it's hurt us down the stretch. 

Last night was an example of that.  It seems to me for that for the plan to work, KG needs to play in the last couple of minutes of the third and the first few minutes of the fourth, before getting pulled for a short rest in the fourth and coming back strong for the final five minutes of the game. 

In a game like last night, this is easier said that done, though.  When we are in a position where we are fighting tooth and nail just to stay in the game like we where last night in the second half, it's got to be hard to pull him from the game in those moments. 

Either way, I thought KG looked rather sluggish last night.  For me, that's a much bigger concern.  He's performed miracles for us before, and I'm just hoping he has one last miraculous run left in him. 

[MBunge]

I think injuries have killed this team and even without them we have some flaws.

Pretty much.

A lot depended on Sully contributing and of course Rondo.  We made due without him for a while but now without him we see how badly we miss his penetration, setting players up for easy baskets, controlling the offense.  Last night was just jumpshot after jumpshot and if those aren't falling out team is very ugly on offense.

But this team was often very ugly on offense WITH Rondo, getting nothing but jumpshot after jumpshot for the last several seasons.

I'm not one of Doc's acolytes and think he deserved a lot of the blame for how horribly this team started the season.  Complaining about him now, with the team devastated by injury, makes no sense.

Mike

[dinome18]

I'm curious to all the Doc bashes what options does he really have?? This is a very flawed team right now. Some people act like if Shav was playing for 38 minutes a night he would average 20 boards.
He is good in spurts but don't fool yourself into thinking he would own the paint if he played the majority of the game there was a reason why he was playing in China.

This is a team in transistion without their best player and a good young player in Sullinger.
They are relying on two guys that are well into their 30's and player in Green who doesn't show up every night. Temper your expectations Doc is the least of this teams problems right now.

If this team is in transition then their GM and ownership didn't do them any favors keeping PP and KG

I agree with that statement but the problem was KG was not waving his clause and the Pierce deal wasn't worh it so they had no choice.

I disagree.  I think Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are proving to be, and are going to continue to prove to be, a huge help in the transition of this team into the next phase of the Boston Celtics.

If this is the energy and work habits that have been instilled by PP and KG to the YG's as KG likes to call them.. how are they being a huge help? This team consistently loses to very bad teams when either KG or PP don't play. Where is the data for this?

You're asking me for the data to back up your claim?  Shouldn't you be finding that yourself?

I'm just saying.

I didn't make the original claim, you did.

I didn't make any claims about the team's record against any teams without Pierce or Garnett.

You made the claim they were going to be a huge help in the transition to the next Boston Celtics and my point was  how? and then backed up my claim by saying I haven't seen energy, toughness and the work habits that I've seen in KG and PP over the years.

I've seen plenty of energy and toughness from everyone on the team.  I guess we just see different things.

We certainly do if you think going 2-2 against the Bobcats,1-2 against the Pistons, 0-2 against the Hornets is an indication of energy and toughness and in some of those games getting run out of the gym.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'm generally not a Doc-basher, but I found a lot of his decisions last night to be screwy.

Shav has 9 boards in only 16 minutes ... so why didn't he play more?

Wilcox had 6 points and 2 rebounds in only 6 minutes ... so why didn't he play more?

I understand leaving Bradley out in the third quarter, but I think he should've been in at the start of the fourth, so why did Doc leave him out until about 7 minutes left? Too little too late.

[kgainez]

I think Doc is just crazy confused now with all his options and lack thereof

I think he needs to just pick a 9 man rotation and stick with it
starters with jet, t-will, shav, wilcox off the bench.

[LooseCannon]

Shav has 9 boards in only 16 minutes ... so why didn't he play more?

As far as I can tell, it seems to be a combination of giving Wilcox minutes that he doesn't deserve and over-playing Green.

I think the trade-off is getting Green 35 or more minutes to maximize helping him find his role on offense and giving Wilcox some maintenance minutes so he doesn't get rusty or pouty vs having Randolph prepared to play more than 10-15 minutes in a playoff game.

Ideally, I'd want the playoff rotation to Garnett, Bass, Green, and Randolph, with occasional appearances by Wilcox based on foul trouble and matchups. 

[Tr1boy]

it's warranted imo. Look at Miami. Team overall is no less talented (without their big three) and beating some tough teams pretty easily.  They beat Spurs with only Bosh

This goes to show you its the coach and the format they have in that is working. Doc on the other hand has little prayer without a few superstars. It was the same deal pre big three era. We weren't even ok bad. We were so bad it was hard to watch

[timobusa]

It's how he manages his players rotation that is frustrating.

We have a comparable roster to the Spurs. and we're still in the bottom of the pack. Granted some of our key players are injured right now, but we were still on the losing side of things even when they were healthy.

Reds are injured

KG - Duncan (old faithful big men)
Pierce - Ginobilli* (crafty scorers)
Rondo* - Parker* (great point guards)
Green - Kawhi Leonard (good SF/PFs)
Bass - Boris Diaw* (undersized PF jumpshooters)
Lee - Danny Green (athletic SG that can shoot 3's)
Sully* - DeJuan Blair (undersized PFs)
Terry - Gary Neal (3 point specialist)
Shav - Thiago Splitter (fiesty big men)
Bradley - Patty Mills (guard)
Williams/Crawford/White/Wilcox - Bonner/Stephen Jackson*/Joseph

I'm just saying, our talent level is not far from the Spurs.
Why are we still in the bottom of the WEAKER conference while they are at the top of the STRONGER conference.

I personally think its Coaching.

[Who]

It's how he manages his players rotation that is frustrating.

We have a comparable roster to the Spurs. and we're still in the bottom of the pack. Granted some of our key players are injured right now, but we were still on the losing side of things even when they were healthy.

Reds are injured

KG - Duncan (old faithful big men)
Pierce - Ginobilli* (crafty scorers)
Rondo* - Parker* (great point guards)
Green - Kawhi Leonard (good SF/PFs)
Bass - Boris Diaw* (undersized PF jumpshooters)
Lee - Danny Green (athletic SG that can shoot 3's)
Sully* - DeJuan Blair (undersized PFs)
Terry - Gary Neal (3 point specialist)
Shav - Thiago Splitter (fiesty big men)
Bradley - Patty Mills (guard)
Williams/Crawford/White/Wilcox - Bonner/Stephen Jackson*/Joseph

I'm just saying, our talent level is not far from the Spurs.
Why are we still in the bottom of the WEAKER conference while they are at the top of the STRONGER conference.

I personally think its Coaching.

I think you have a point when Rondo was in the lineup but not since then. Doc had a very strong talent base to work with and the team should have been one of the best teams in the league.

However, after Rondo went down, I think the C's were only a 48-52 win caliber team. Then Sully went down and the C's dropped to a 45-48 win caliber team. Since then, they have also lost Barbosa.

They are playing to roughly their expected level since the injuries to Rondo (mainly) and Sullinger.

So in summary = I have a major issue with how the team underperformed in the first half of the season until Rondo got hurt but I think Doc has got them playing reasonably well since then with a short-handed roster.

[Yogi]

It's how he manages his players rotation that is frustrating.

We have a comparable roster to the Spurs. and we're still in the bottom of the pack. Granted some of our key players are injured right now, but we were still on the losing side of things even when they were healthy.

Reds are injured

KG - Duncan (old faithful big men)
Pierce - Ginobilli* (crafty scorers)
Rondo* - Parker* (great point guards)
Green - Kawhi Leonard (good SF/PFs)
Bass - Boris Diaw* (undersized PF jumpshooters)
Lee - Danny Green (athletic SG that can shoot 3's)
Sully* - DeJuan Blair (undersized PFs)
Terry - Gary Neal (3 point specialist)
Shav - Thiago Splitter (fiesty big men)
Bradley - Patty Mills (guard)
Williams/Crawford/White/Wilcox - Bonner/Stephen Jackson*/Joseph

I'm just saying, our talent level is not far from the Spurs.
Why are we still in the bottom of the WEAKER conference while they are at the top of the STRONGER conference.

I personally think its Coaching.

First of all, our guys are OUT FOR THE SEASON.  They shouldn't be on your list at all.  If you want to add temporary injuries then Wilcox, Bradley, KG, Pierce, Courtney Lee should all be red in your list.  Also where is Barbosa?  Just because he was replaced doesn't mean we didn't lose a lot in playoff experience, chemistry, continuity and time. 


The Celtics went further than the Spurs in all 5 years of the KG era.  What in the world are you complaining about?  If our regular season record helps us land talent like Rondo, Bradley and Sullinger then I am all for it.

The main reason the Spurs are so good however is that they've had their core together for over a decade with Manu, Timmy and Parker all being drafted by the Spurs who've added talent to that core throughout the years.  We got our past the age of thirty through trades and lost one to free agency.  We've drafted well and added some talent, but only this year we've had the depth that San Antonio boasts.

Furthermore, our owners, GM and scouts have only been comparable to the Spurs for the last 5 years. 

Doc is the reason we're even in the same conversation as the Spurs.  Unfortunately Doc never gets the credit for changing Paul Pierce from talented scorer to a leader.  He never gets the credit for turning KG from a guy who didn't want to be here to a guy who publicly states he would run through a wall for Doc and will bleed green till he dies.  He never gets the proper credit for turning a raw untapped talent like Rondo into a perennial all star, and potential MVP.  For turning guys like Perkins, Nate Robinson, Glen Davis, Delonte West etc. into playoff contributors. 

I look at the Spurs and I see a bright future for the Celtics.  Doc, Rondo, Avery Bradley, Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger.  That's a good core to build around.

[Celtics18]

It's how he manages his players rotation that is frustrating.

We have a comparable roster to the Spurs. and we're still in the bottom of the pack. Granted some of our key players are injured right now, but we were still on the losing side of things even when they were healthy.

Reds are injured

KG - Duncan (old faithful big men)
Pierce - Ginobilli* (crafty scorers)
Rondo* - Parker* (great point guards)
Green - Kawhi Leonard (good SF/PFs)
Bass - Boris Diaw* (undersized PF jumpshooters)
Lee - Danny Green (athletic SG that can shoot 3's)
Sully* - DeJuan Blair (undersized PFs)
Terry - Gary Neal (3 point specialist)
Shav - Thiago Splitter (fiesty big men)
Bradley - Patty Mills (guard)
Williams/Crawford/White/Wilcox - Bonner/Stephen Jackson*/Joseph

I'm just saying, our talent level is not far from the Spurs.
Why are we still in the bottom of the WEAKER conference while they are at the top of the STRONGER conference.

I personally think its Coaching.

First of all, our guys are OUT FOR THE SEASON.  They shouldn't be on your list at all.  If you want to add temporary injuries then Wilcox, Bradley, KG, Pierce, Courtney Lee should all be red in your list.  Also where is Barbosa?  Just because he was replaced doesn't mean we didn't lose a lot in playoff experience, chemistry, continuity and time. 


The Celtics went further than the Spurs in all 5 years of the KG era.  What in the world are you complaining about?  If our regular season record helps us land talent like Rondo, Bradley and Sullinger then I am all for it.

The main reason the Spurs are so good however is that they've had their core together for over a decade with Manu, Timmy and Parker all being drafted by the Spurs who've added talent to that core throughout the years.  We got our past the age of thirty through trades and lost one to free agency.  We've drafted well and added some talent, but only this year we've had the depth that San Antonio boasts.

Furthermore, our owners, GM and scouts have only been comparable to the Spurs for the last 5 years. 

Doc is the reason we're even in the same conversation as the Spurs.  Unfortunately Doc never gets the credit for changing Paul Pierce from talented scorer to a leader.  He never gets the credit for turning KG from a guy who didn't want to be here to a guy who publicly states he would run through a wall for Doc and will bleed green till he dies.  He never gets the proper credit for turning a raw untapped talent like Rondo into a perennial all star, and potential MVP.  For turning guys like Perkins, Nate Robinson, Glen Davis, Delonte West etc. into playoff contributors. 

I look at the Spurs and I see a bright future for the Celtics.  Doc, Rondo, Avery Bradley, Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger.  That's a good core to build around.

Giveth.

[SHAQATTACK]

WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUAL GAMES I agree Doc is above average , but not a superstar coach yet.  There are several other that are clearly better X and O's

When it comes to rebuilding .....  DOC will be invaluable,  maybe the top coach ....  "GOOD" players young and old alike  "WANT" to play for Glenn Rivers ......

DOn't want to fire DOC while hunting talent to join the team.

[BballTim]

It's how he manages his players rotation that is frustrating.

We have a comparable roster to the Spurs. and we're still in the bottom of the pack. Granted some of our key players are injured right now, but we were still on the losing side of things even when they were healthy.

Reds are injured

KG - Duncan (old faithful big men)
Pierce - Ginobilli* (crafty scorers)
Rondo* - Parker* (great point guards)
Green - Kawhi Leonard (good SF/PFs)
Bass - Boris Diaw* (undersized PF jumpshooters)
Lee - Danny Green (athletic SG that can shoot 3's)
Sully* - DeJuan Blair (undersized PFs)
Terry - Gary Neal (3 point specialist)
Shav - Thiago Splitter (fiesty big men)
Bradley - Patty Mills (guard)
Williams/Crawford/White/Wilcox - Bonner/Stephen Jackson*/Joseph

I'm just saying, our talent level is not far from the Spurs.
Why are we still in the bottom of the WEAKER conference while they are at the top of the STRONGER conference.

I personally think its Coaching.

I think you have a point when Rondo was in the lineup but not since then. Doc had a very strong talent base to work with and the team should have been one of the best teams in the league.

However, after Rondo went down, I think the C's were only a 48-52 win caliber team. Then Sully went down and the C's dropped to a 45-48 win caliber team. Since then, they have also lost Barbosa.

They are playing to roughly their expected level since the injuries to Rondo (mainly) and Sullinger.

So in summary = I have a major issue with how the team underperformed in the first half of the season until Rondo got hurt but I think Doc has got them playing reasonably well since then with a short-handed roster.

  I think Doc could have opened up the transition game more when Rondo was in the lineup but the team was always going to be fairly inconsistent until the defense came together. That took quite a while for the players to get comfortable but the results (when we were healthy) were worth the wait.

[Clench123]

No matter how bad things may seem right now, I wouldn't want any other coach coaching this team.  We don't know what we have...