No Rondo=Simpler=Better Basketball

[BballTim]

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

I don't have the statisitics to show this but I think empirically, it is pretty clear.  When one guy is dominating the assists, that means he is dominating the ball and most assists are coming off of one pass; from the assist guy to the shooter.

The best offensive teams generate their offense with multiple passes, multiple guys touching it, multiple guys getting the last pass and thereby the assist.

One guy dominating the ball and looking to pass is better than one guy dominating the ball and looking to score but it is not better than plain old fashioned ball movement.

  I think that most good teams have wing players that are ball dominant and dominant scorers. They'd end up with a fairly similar assist total as the pg who doesn't control the ball much in the half court.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Against the Blazers we shot 50% and 38% from three.  It doesn't surprise me.

  We had a below average offensive game against the 2nd worst defense in the league and you use it as a sign that the offense does fine without Rondo. That doesn't surprise me.

We also played with a rotation player out, one who's among the top in FG% for his own offense, we also played Bass 17 minutes, KG 23, Pierce 27, Collins 12.

Personally I wouldn't look too much into the final stat line.

[snively]

I just want to reiterate that I don't believe we are better WITHOUT Rondo.  It's just interesting that we tend to win with him sitting out.

  That's not unusual. We've won the bulk of the games KG's missed since he's joined the Celts.

Yep 7-2 with the mighty Scal in KG's place in the championship year, IIRC.

[xmuscularghandix]

I largely agree with the message of this thread.

Rondo doesn't advance the ball to his teammates, when he 's on the floor the ball moves through him and then it's one pass to a shot (usually a good one) but that is wasting the playmaking ability of all the other players. It also isn't putting as much pressure on the defense. Good offensive basketball isn't just a nice pick and roll between two good players, it's about moving the ball around between 5.

A great passer like Rajon Rondo will get his numbers and affect the game in any offense, he doesn't need the ball for the entire game.

I feel that the change to a Rondo-centric offense has been one of the major problems with this team since 2010, sure the've won a lot of games but it eventually goes stagnant.

I vote for a team offense where Rondo brings it up, passes to the post or to a wing and that (ACTUALLY) cuts to the basket instead of standing at the top clapping to immediately get the ball back. Rondo didn't make Pierce and KG great offensive players they were great before anyone even heard of the kid... he has to give them a chance to warm the ball up a bit themselves. Same goes for Jeff Green and Courtney Lee.

"The Celtics need to find players who are willing to run with their young PG, uptempo is his style."  <<< the funny thing about this is it seems like Rondo might be the one whose preventing them from running.

The kid is great, but PG dominated offenses don't win you ANYTHING. They just win all-star selections and regular season games. TEAM basketball wins the whole thing.

[CelticG1]

Yeah simpler and better until we start losing

[BballTim]

Against the Blazers we shot 50% and 38% from three.  It doesn't surprise me.

  We had a below average offensive game against the 2nd worst defense in the league and you use it as a sign that the offense does fine without Rondo. That doesn't surprise me.

We also played with a rotation player out, one who's among the top in FG% for his own offense, we also played Bass 17 minutes, KG 23, Pierce 27, Collins 12.

Personally I wouldn't look too much into the final stat line.

  Sure, it was just 1 game, but the offense being worse without Rondo isn't atypical.

[BballTim]

I largely agree with the message of this thread.

Rondo doesn't advance the ball to his teammates, when he 's on the floor the ball moves through him and then it's one pass to a shot (usually a good one) but that is wasting the playmaking ability of all the other players. It also isn't putting as much pressure on the defense. Good offensive basketball isn't just a nice pick and roll between two good players, it's about moving the ball around between 5.

A great passer like Rajon Rondo will get his numbers and affect the game in any offense, he doesn't need the ball for the entire game.

I feel that the change to a Rondo-centric offense has been one of the major problems with this team since 2010, sure the've won a lot of games but it eventually goes stagnant.

I vote for a team offense where Rondo brings it up, passes to the post or to a wing and that (ACTUALLY) cuts to the basket instead of standing at the top clapping to immediately get the ball back. Rondo didn't make Pierce and KG great offensive players they were great before anyone even heard of the kid... he has to give them a chance to warm the ball up a bit themselves. Same goes for Jeff Green and Courtney Lee.

"The Celtics need to find players who are willing to run with their young PG, uptempo is his style."  <<< the funny thing about this is it seems like Rondo might be the one whose preventing them from running.

The kid is great, but PG dominated offenses don't win you ANYTHING. They just win all-star selections and regular season games. TEAM basketball wins the whole thing.

  The Rondo-centric team we've had since 2010 has made it to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in the last 3 years. Clearly we didn't win the title, but "don't win you ANYTHING" is quite an overstatement.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Wl, rondo adds a lot...but needs to look at his minus quotient himself, along with the coach.....his lack a face to face defense can negate his offense, seeing as though he covers the #1 pg's in the league....they cannot be left alone like that with his only effort being to poke at the ball as they go by....walking the ball up the floor, because you expect to play ALL game, so you are SAVING your energy...is good for pickup bball....not the NBA Celts...But, he still is one of the best, and adds a lot....the Celts stand around a lot, flat footed....maybe because it is a "play" but plays only work 100% in practice, a player needs to see beyond the play, and use what is open/there....keep moving.....make the play within the play.....or outside it....! This maybe good for rondo to see what goes on, on the floor....and good for us/Lee, and the others to develop.

[ACF]

The defense would like to present Exhibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc9ez485vI

[PhoSita]

Rondo's offensive rating is 111, well above our team average.  Our team scores very effectively when he is on the floor.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

West coast bball....final score, 145-147...= no defense.

[SHAQATTACK]

Maybe one reason it seems offense moves better is the opponents are not oriented to seein gthe Celtics without ROndo.  The Defenses are based on seeing Rondo in the lineup and they now have studied Rondo and know best how to control him.

That kinda indicates he is in the game too much to me .   ROndo needs to play less and push the ball harder up court when he is in.

I can't remeber seeing Avery Bradley ever walk the ball up court.  He is always hussels the ball into play.

Rondo gives the defenses TOO much time to set up and leaves the offense with TOO little time to score .

I like to see Green , Lee , Rondo drive into the paint and make a play from there.  But when there is no clock time left , there are hurried up shots with little chance of a put back.  (small Ball) just irritates me to no end.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Right, maybe doc puts a lineup out there, rondo, green bradley or barbosa or lee...and kg bass/sully, see speed with backup....rebounding....we need to try our speed....maybe 3rd 4th q  to tire teams out, push them harder.....miami.....ect......go to the hole....fouls, layups....even though poor rondo doesn't get many calls....pushing a member of the ref crime family isn't good.....

[Sketch5]

Rondo needs to watch films of magic johnson.... he almost never slowed down a fast break. he also took advantage of the opponents respect for his court vision and passing ability. rondo or doc need to understand how to fast break and not slow down the game.

Doc is just not a very good coach

The reason Rondo slows down is because he's usually waiting for the rest of the team to catch up. Can't run off of made baskets because PP,KG and Jet couldn't keep up.

[snively]

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

I don't have the statisitics to show this but I think empirically, it is pretty clear.  When one guy is dominating the assists, that means he is dominating the ball and most assists are coming off of one pass; from the assist guy to the shooter.

The best offensive teams generate their offense with multiple passes, multiple guys touching it, multiple guys getting the last pass and thereby the assist.

One guy dominating the ball and looking to pass is better than one guy dominating the ball and looking to score but it is not better than plain old fashioned ball movement.

If by empirically clear you mean it worked for Norman Dale and Hickory High, sure, but try taking a look at some of the best NBA offenses.  The Spurs with their ball movement nirvana (and the C's in 08) are the exception, not the rule.

If you have a player/system capable of generating a great shot with a single pass - Suns + Nash, LeBron/Wade + shooters, CP3 + athletic finishers - it's something to celebrate. Generally, the less intricate ball movement required to get a great shot, the better: less chance of a turnover, less dependence on everybody on the floor having a complete tool-kit + great chemistry and/or the coach being a genius.