No Rondo=Simpler=Better Basketball

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Not willing to go as far, but two things were evident for me that game:

1. The team didn't have anyone who could handle the ball at the top without coughing it up with regularity.

2. Having Rondo dominate the ball for the whole game clearly doesn't maximize the contribution of some of our players -- mainly Green and Lee.

I think this is spot on.  We need Rondo, 100%.  Our other guards and wings have had a lot of issues with turnovers in the last few games.  I wish PP could lose the turnover bug, because last night he made bad pass after bad pass.

I got the sense that Green and Lee both were able to relax a bit in the absence of our floor general.  I think Rondo needs to work on getting those two involved in the game early so they can get into the flow better.

Overall our team needs to stop holding onto the ball so long in general.  Rondo is probably in that cat as well.  When we move the ball, good things happen.  Opens up j-shots, gets the other team's d moving which creates seams for J Green and C Lee to penetrate to the rim or kick it out.

[Roy H.]

I don't think the Celtics are better without Rondo.  I do think they share the ball more without him, though. 

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

[Ogaju]

Jeff Green clearly needs the ball more. He is good on ISO plays so there should be more ISO plays designed for him. He looked very comfortable last night taking his defender into the paint and finishing at the rim.

[OsirusCeltics]

Here is theory that might support the thread title:

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Rondo cannot shoot and is afraid to take it to the paint like he used to. This means he's holding the ball to remain a threat, choking ball movement. (i.e. if he gives up the ball, the other team can play 5 on 4 and ignore him.) This means there is less overall movement and the offense is more predictable and thus defendable with Rondo.

--

While I can see a some truth in this theory, I still think Rondo brings a lot more to the table. I aslo think the shorter rotation and crappy opponent contributed to what we saw.

TP totally agree wit that
The crappy opponent still make this win legit. They lost to Detroit by 20 points not too long ago, which was a crappy team. A win is a win

[cman88]

Here is theory that might support the thread title:

--

Rondo cannot shoot and is afraid to take it to the paint like he used to. This means he's holding the ball to remain a threat, choking ball movement. (i.e. if he gives up the ball, the other team can play 5 on 4 and ignore him.) This means there is less overall movement and the offense is more predictable and thus defendable with Rondo.

--

While I can see a some truth in this theory, I still think Rondo brings a lot more to the table. I aslo think the shorter rotation and crappy opponent contributed to what we saw.

TP totally agree wit that
The crappy opponent still make this win legit. They lost to Detroit by 20 points not too long ago, which was a crappy team. A win is a win

from the eye test, they looked better on defense contesting every shot and rotating better.

and offensively they were aggressive..good things happen when you get into the paint. and both Lee/Green drove in there alot

[celtsfan84]

I don't think the Celtics are better without Rondo.  I do think they share the ball more without him, though. 

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

That is pretty interesting.  Did any teams stand out amongst the teams that feature multiple guys generating assists?  I guess Miami would count (James, Wade, Chalmers).

[LarBrd33]

And so it begins...

I've been pointing it out for a WHILE now that this team tends to win when Rondo sits out.  Rondo is a great passer, but historically our scorers are still able to score with him out.  Usually Pierce steps up huge.  That doesn't mean Rondo isn't great at what he does... but the numbers don't lie.  We have a winning record when Rondo misses games.

I mean it was for that reason that in year's past I was somewhat on board with a Rondo for Steph Curry trade or Rondo for Pau Gasol trade (for various reasons...  the curry trade would have freed up a lot of cap room as well).  WHen he sits out, the ball still finds our scorers... and in year's past he had been such a liability shooting the ball taht I almost felt like replacing him with a shooter like StepH Curry would actually improve our offense. 

This year, I have no complaints with how Rondo is playing, though.  He's 2nd to only Chris Paul in statistical efficiency amongst point guards.  He's definitely a top 5 point guard and his shooting is less of a liability this year.

[LarBrd33]

Here's what I said back in April:

Rondo is an outstanding point guard.  His role is clearly defined here.  In this system... right now... he's a good fit.  The other 4 starters (Ray/Bradley, Pierce, KG and Bass) are all capable of hitting shots (Bradley is a recent revelation that hopefully isn't just streaking)... so Rondo can get away with being a poor shooter and focus primarily on being a setup man.  He excels in the role.  If his teammates keep shooting the way they are shooting, Rondo should have no trouble keeping his assist numbers up. 

I think these stats might just be skewed by the fact that when Rondo missed games, we won 6 of 8.  The thing is, even with how well Rondo plays as a "setup guy", he's still got the potential to be a "weakness" for the Celtics due to his lack of offensive ability (can't shoot, can't drive late, because he can't hit free throws)... so when he sits out, our star players have a tendency to put on their vintage capes and dominate.  Pierce, in particular, seems to step his game up when Rondo is out.  Pierce seems more than comfortable letting the ball flow through him (which is how he had to play up until 2009, really)...  I'm not sure if that proves that they don't NEED Rondo out there... I suspect that even without Rondo our offense would thrive.  Some have theorized that if you stuck a shooter in there like Jose Calderon, the offense might actually be better.  It would require Pierce to control the ball more, but he'd have more space since Calderon was such a deadly shooter.  WE'd take a hit on defense, though.  Rondo has proven to be a very good defensive point guard when he's focused.

Edit:  Just took a look at what Pierce did in the 8 game stretch with Rondo out and it seems to back that up:

1/20 (LOSS) 12 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks
1/22 (Win) 34 points, 10 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals
1/23 (win) 19 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds
1/26 (win) 24 points, 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 block
1/27 (win) 28 points, 8 assists, 10 rebounds, 3 steals,2  blocks
1/29 (loss) 18 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds
1/31 (win) 20 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 steals
2/1 (win) 17 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 block

Pierce averaged 21.5 points, 7.5 assists, 6 rebounds during that stretch.  So basically what happens when Rondo sits is that Pierce gets asked to do more on offense (which he's capable of doing... dunno if he could do it long-term at this age, though) and we replace Rondo with someone who can shoot better (pretty much anyone... by default).  That doesn't take away from what Rondo does, though.  He's a very skilled setup man and in THIS system RIGHT NOW... he's clearly flourishing in his role.

I think after that, Rondo missed another 4 games and we won two of them. 

4/18 vs ORlando was another great example.  Pierce had 29 points, 14 assists and 5 boards.  Bradley had 23 points.  Bass had 21 points. KG had 15.  We lost the next game vs Toronto because NONE of he big 4 played... Bradley scored 28 by himself.

Fact is... our scorers still score when Rondo isn't passing the ball to them.

In the Nets game, we werent' any worse off once Rondo was ejected.  We were getting spanked before he was tossed and I think we closed the gap by a couple points.

Against the Blazers we shot 50% and 38% from three.  It doesn't surprise me. 

[Smutzy#9]

With Lee playing defence like that Im sure we would win most match ups. Box score doesnt credit Lee with the game he had last night, was sensational.

We are a better team with Rondo on the court no doubt about it. We arent the Mike Pringles D'Anttoni Lakers/suns where we get a shot off every 7 seconds. You act like its a problem now, Rondo has been runnin the offence for 5-6 years now always been very similar.

And whats with the hate on Doc, bar Pop, doc is easily one of the best coaches in the league probs the best x and o's guy as well. He knew a big threat was lillard and LA, we completely shut lillard down and he got to know what facing east coast D was like... LA not so much, but he is a great player and is bound to score.

[KGs Knee]

I haven't read any other posts in the thread yet, because the premise that the team is "better" without Rondo is ludicrous.

What I will say is this, the offense could definitely stand to become a little less "Rondo-centric".  By this I mean, Rondo doesn't need to be the one always controlling the ball in our half-court sets.  We have multiple other decent ball handlers, and players capable of generating offense.

What I would like to see going forward, is a more varied offensive attack.  Let some of the other players do they're "thing" a little more.  It'd keep the defense guessing a little more, and also keep the other players on our team more engaged and aggressive.

[LarBrd33]

I just want to reiterate that I don't believe we are better WITHOUT Rondo.  It's just interesting that we tend to win with him sitting out.  Other players step up.  My argument had never been that we were better minus Rondo... If anything, I argued that moving Rondo for an equal/greater piece (within context of salary cap and the future) could have made us better.

RIght now, I have almost no complaints with how Rondo has been playing this year.  He's been fantastic. It's like playoff ROndo 24/7... hopefully he keeps it up now that his streak is over.

[BballTim]

Against the Blazers we shot 50% and 38% from three.  It doesn't surprise me.

  We had a below average offensive game against the 2nd worst defense in the league and you use it as a sign that the offense does fine without Rondo. That doesn't surprise me.

[BballTim]

I just want to reiterate that I don't believe we are better WITHOUT Rondo.  It's just interesting that we tend to win with him sitting out.

  That's not unusual. We've won the bulk of the games KG's missed since he's joined the Celts.

[Vermont Green]

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

I don't have the statisitics to show this but I think empirically, it is pretty clear.  When one guy is dominating the assists, that means he is dominating the ball and most assists are coming off of one pass; from the assist guy to the shooter.

The best offensive teams generate their offense with multiple passes, multiple guys touching it, multiple guys getting the last pass and thereby the assist.

One guy dominating the ball and looking to pass is better than one guy dominating the ball and looking to score but it is not better than plain old fashioned ball movement.

[LarBrd33]

I read an article lately that suggested that most good teams feature multiple guys generating assists, rather than one dominant passer.  I'd be interested in examining that theory.

I don't have the statisitics to show this but I think empirically, it is pretty clear.  When one guy is dominating the assists, that means he is dominating the ball and most assists are coming off of one pass; from the assist guy to the shooter.

The best offensive teams generate their offense with multiple passes, multiple guys touching it, multiple guys getting the last pass and thereby the assist.

One guy dominating the ball and looking to pass is better than one guy dominating the ball and looking to score but it is not better than plain old fashioned ball movement.

SO basically it makes the team predictable