Wow, Presti offered 52 Million to Harden, James declines.

[Chris]

I understand this is weird to say about a such a good team, but I feel like they continue to nail the value and talent evaluations, but don't quite get the whole "build a championship TEAM" part of it.  I feel like they continue to be less than the sum of the parts, and with an asset like Harden, I think they had an opportunity to try to rectify that a bit, but instead, they chose to just add more parts that don't quite fill the need.

I think this is the problem of having a PG like Westbrook with a wing like Durant.

Exactly.  And unfortunately, they are in a situation where they really need a GM who has no fear to fix that.  Because the move really was to give away Westbrook for a better passing PG IMO...but if you wiff on that, there goes your job.  But, if you hold onto those guys, even if the don't get over the top, you are pretty safe as they keep going deep into the playoffs.

Yeah, but the problem is it isn't like there are many PGs who are more pass first that you can swap Westbrook with (this is where Rondo/Westbrook rumors came from as the fit makes sense). Instead he's hoping internal growth will solve the issue....

Yeah, I agree.  Its not an easy situation.

But I still think they could use a real inside presence, and could have really benefitted from using such a valuable asset as Harden to address that.

[Edgar]

kevin martin is in pauly pierces underrated category

[blake]

I think that Ibaka is going to keep improving his game and surprise people even more this year.  From what I saw in preseason, he is more aggressive on the offensive end and has extended his range to the 3 pt line.  He was already shooting 46% from 16-23 ft last year.  I really don't think there is going to be a dropoff from last year.  Also, they are in a really good position to get an impact C.  They have the option of trading/amnestying Perk plus an expiring contract in Kevin Martin. 

[pearljammer10]

kevin martin is in pauly pierces underrated category

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. I think Martin is extremely overrated.

Martin played 80 games in only 2 of his seasons and hit 72 in one other. In his other five seasons he hit 60 games only once. Guy can't stay healthy and that's always hurt him.

Sure the dude can score, but he doesn't do it very efficiently. He averaged 25 a game in 08 - 09 but needed 16 shots a game to do so only shooting 42% from the field.  Since then he's had field goal years of 43% twice, 39%, and 41% while his 3pt % has hit 40% once in his career. I'm interested to see what he can do off the bench for a contender if he can stay healthy but the thunder get worse in this trade.

Harden was a playmaker who could defend well. Martin doesn't pass, rebounds poorly but ok for a sg and for a guy that's 6' 7 doesn't use his length on D and is a terrible terrible defender. His turn overs are fairly low/average but that's only because when he gets the ball he is jacking it up.

I hope he can stay healthy and be a good scorer of the bench for the thunder just so if the heat go back the finals there is at least some competition. Harden could at least body wade and lebron when needed. Now, the thunder have less options to throw at those two guys. And if Martin gets hurt, which is likely, then they are in more trouble then they already are. I hope he stays healthy to be used as mid season trade bait.

[Fafnir]

Sure the dude can score, but he doesn't do it very efficiently. He averaged 25 a game in 08 - 09 but needed 16 shots a game to do so only shooting 42% from the field.  Since then he's had field goal years of 43% twice, 39%, and 41% while his 3pt % has hit 40% once in his career.

I was reading your post and hit this sentence, which is a full on "stop go directly to jail do not pass go do not collect $200" error.

Kevin Martin has been an extremely efficient scorer over his career. He has routinely scored 20 PPG on 15 to 16 shots per game, all because he gets to the line a lot.

His career TS% is .595 which is excellent and his career eFG% is also a solid .505.

[Roy H.]

Sure the dude can score, but he doesn't do it very efficiently. He averaged 25 a game in 08 - 09 but needed 16 shots a game to do so only shooting 42% from the field.

While I agree with many of your other points, 25 points on 16 shots is considered to be very efficient.  In 2009, Martin ranked 4th in the NBA in points per shot.

[Fafnir]

Sure the dude can score, but he doesn't do it very efficiently. He averaged 25 a game in 08 - 09 but needed 16 shots a game to do so only shooting 42% from the field.

While I agree with many of your other points, 25 points on 16 shots is considered to be very efficient.  In 2009, Martin ranked 4th in the NBA in points per shot.

Yeah he's also a relatively low turnover guy for a go-to scorer. His points per possession have always been excellent.

[More Banners]

They're calling Harden the franchise player in Houston.

Not too sure on that...

I think Harden benefitted quite a bit from having Westbrook and Durant take the pressure and playing against 2nd stringers for large parts of games.

Great 6th man and 3rd option, but not a #1 option by any means.

So far as OKC is concerned, they're building like Miami:  drive-and-kick superstars with shooters to spread the floor.  Martin is probably a better fit.

[Vermont Green]

You know the secret to getting rich (and other things) is having the guts to buy low and sell high.  I think the latter applies more to OKC in this case as they got a huge haul for Harden.  I can't see a scenario where they could have gotten more.

Kevin Martin will need to make some adjustments but I actually think his game is more suited to being the off the ball guy who gets the good open shots created by Durant and Westbrook (assuming that Westbrook actually passes) vs. Martin trying to be the guy.

The question here isn't whether or not Martin is as good as Harden but rather is he good enough.  I think he is.

[CoachBo]

I don't really agree.

Martin is far too close to the dreaded volume shooter designation on a team that doesn't have a lot of shots to go around already, who doesn't help OKC a whit defensively, as a - to put it charitably - ambivalent defender. He's a throw-in, and isn't why OKC made this deal unless Presti's an even bigger putz than I imagine.

The haul in this deal is the draft choices, if used correctly.

Short-term, it's a significant step back by the Thunder and all but a concession of the Western Conference, IMHO.

Long-term, it could be the seeds for a dynasty - if Clay Bennett breaks on his unwillingness to pay the luxury tax.

If he doesn't, then it's a useless, harmful deal.

[fairweatherfan]

So I've heard a lot about Martin being an awful defender (haven't watched him much), but I read on ESPN the other day that he held opposing SGs to a 12.6 PER and 47% eFG last year.  That seems pretty good, actually.  Is there a statistical case for him being really bad?

[pearljammer10]

Sure the dude can score, but he doesn't do it very efficiently. He averaged 25 a game in 08 - 09 but needed 16 shots a game to do so only shooting 42% from the field.

While I agree with many of your other points, 25 points on 16 shots is considered to be very efficient.  In 2009, Martin ranked 4th in the NBA in points per shot.

Yeah he's also a relatively low turnover guy for a go-to scorer. His points per possession have always been excellent.

I guess the efficientcy factor is there, but where does Martin get his touches playing alongside Durant and Westbrook? As I stated, his turnovers are low, but hes never really had to pass the ball to anybody. Will Martin be able to get his 16 shots per game when Durant and Westbrook will be dominating the ball more? I think that Martin needs the high volume shots to be productive because he doesnt really do much else particularly well, and playing alongside Durant and Westbrook I dont see him getting the shots he needs to be productive for them.

[Roy H.]

So I've heard a lot about Martin being an awful defender (haven't watched him much), but I read on ESPN the other day that he held opposing SGs to a 12.6 PER and 47% eFG last year.  That seems pretty good, actually.  Is there a statistical case for him being really bad?

According to Synergy Sports, he ranked 387th in the league in terms of points allowed per possession.  He allowed a very poor 0.94 points per possession.

Martin is a poor defender, he's fragile, and he's soft.  He's excellent at getting to the line -- he's perhaps the best in the NBA at using free throws to his advantage -- and very good overall offensively.  However, he's almost non-existent on the other end of the floor, largely offsetting what he does well offensively.

[guava_wrench]

Presti didn't just take advantage of good draft position. The Westbrook pick was viewed as a stretch and was strongly criticized when he made it.

Martin can shoot, but his career is built upon open looks. He has been a poor shooter when contested. His good shooting throughout his career is strongly influenced by his extraordinarily high rate of open shots.

I don't typically buy arguments that 2 guys are going to replace a single better player when we are talking about a team with serious playoff aspirations. Deep in the playoffs, you want to be able to put out the best possible 5 man lineup.

[fairweatherfan]

So I've heard a lot about Martin being an awful defender (haven't watched him much), but I read on ESPN the other day that he held opposing SGs to a 12.6 PER and 47% eFG last year.  That seems pretty good, actually.  Is there a statistical case for him being really bad?

According to Synergy Sports, he ranked 387th in the league in terms of points allowed per possession.  He allowed a very poor 0.94 points per possession.

Martin is a poor defender, he's fragile, and he's soft.  He's excellent at getting to the line -- he's perhaps the best in the NBA at using free throws to his advantage -- and very good overall offensively.  However, he's almost non-existent on the other end of the floor, largely offsetting what he does well offensively.

Interesting - knew there had to be something to it.  But those individual figures seem even stranger now.  I wonder if the discrepancy between those stats means Martin's a horrible team defender but closer to mediocre individually.  (I'm assuming points allowed is just generally by the team when you're on the floor).