Author Topic: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded? (Extended $48 over 4 years)  (Read 6221 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 12:00:41 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Is Ty Lawson a Star?

Like Josh Smith is a star, but with way better leadership ability. Lawson is a borderline all star.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 12:16:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Is Ty Lawson a Star?

Like Josh Smith is a star, but with way better leadership ability. Lawson is a borderline all star.

  He's at least below CP/Nash/Westbrook/Parker among western point guards. The odds of him making an all-star team aren't very good.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 12:24:11 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Is Ty Lawson a Star?

Like Josh Smith is a star, but with way better leadership ability. Lawson is a borderline all star.

  He's at least below CP/Nash/Westbrook/Parker among western point guards. The odds of him making an all-star team aren't very good.

I think he is above Nash now, on par with Parker. Below CP3 and Westbrook.

Maybe not. In my head, in the league, I go:

1) CP3, Rose
2) Westbrook, Rondo, Williams
3) Nash, Lawson, Parker, Irving, Lowry, Curry
4) Rubio, Dragic, Lin, Holiday, Conley Jr

Something along those lines.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 12:53:57 AM by IndeedProceed »

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2012, 12:42:14 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Quote
The scuttlebutt around the NBA is that Denver is willing to give their young point guard Ty Lawson a four-year, $45 million deal. Or, about $11.2 million per year.

Yikes ... not sold on Ty Lawson being an eight figure per annum guy. I would price Ty Lawson down around $7-8 million a year.

Co-sign.

Lawson is a speedy score first point guard with decent passing ability.  He's a very nice player, no doubt, but one significant knee or ankle injury that cuts his end-to-end speed and suddenly he's Earl Watson or Will Bynum with a jumpshot.  The point guard position is deep in this league.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 02:01:10 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3220
  • Tommy Points: 183
Quote
The scuttlebutt around the NBA is that Denver is willing to give their young point guard Ty Lawson a four-year, $45 million deal. Or, about $11.2 million per year.

Yikes ... not sold on Ty Lawson being an eight figure per annum guy. I would price Ty Lawson down around $7-8 million a year.

Co-sign.

Lawson is a speedy score first point guard with decent passing ability.  He's a very nice player, no doubt, but one significant knee or ankle injury that cuts his end-to-end speed and suddenly he's Earl Watson or Will Bynum with a jumpshot.  The point guard position is deep in this league.

Umm Iverson would have been very average without his speed as well.  He lit up the league for about a decade before he wore down.  YOu can't evaluate a player by saying well if he gets injured and loses his special attributes, then he's not good.  That applies to everybody.

The NBA has become a guard heavy league.  If you have an elite or near elite PG, you've got to pay them to keep them, unless you have a knack of finding/developing them like Houston seems to.  Don't see Denver having a ready replacement for Lawson atm so I think he stays. 

11m per is not overpay for a borderline all-star talent in this league.  And if you're lucky, they turn into the next Rondo.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2012, 10:21:49 AM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52967
  • Tommy Points: 2570
I think Ty Lawson is a pretty weak defensive player. He is really limited by his lack of size. Very weak on shot-contests. Dead in the water any time he is forced to switch onto a bigger player. Less effective in double teams. Can't defend post-ups. Just a lot of issues. Good pressure defender on ball-handlers but far more negatives than positives defensively. A net negative defensively. I also consider him a below par rebounder. Not a good possession creator but not too large a negative either. I think Lawson's size will always limit him as a defender/rebounder and do not see much upside here.

Offensively, a good scorer (16-18ppg). Very efficient (TS% 57-59%). Pretty good shooter. 

But again, Ty Lawson's size limits him. There are a large number of times where he gets dribble penetration (into the paint or that midrange area) but is unable to get off a quality shot attempt against the size and length of opposing teams (much more often than most PGs). In fairness to him, Lawson is smart enough to realize this and doesn't waste possessions away on low percentage shots in those situations and passes it the ball back out.

But that does make me believe that Lawson is already pretty close to his ceiling as a scorer because he can't create that needed room to get extra shots off without it taking a big dent in his scoring efficiency. Plus, on a Denver team that was desperate for go-to scoring, Lawson was unable to provide that extra scoring punch. So I think he is best off in that 15-18ppg bracket as a third option (very efficient) type scorer. I don't see a lot of upside for him as a scorer.

As a passer, again, I think his size limits him. A lot like Jameer Nelson, there are lot of passes that he is unable to make. Opportunities that he doesn't capitalize on. Maybe he finds a way to improve that in time, maybe he doesn't.

On the plus side - Lawson is a good floor general, smart decision maker, controls the tempo very well and enables good ball movement. Quick decision maker as well as a good one. Not much wasted action. Very strong drive and kick game (much better than a guy like Jameer Nelson). His speed enables that part of his game to be very consistent as a playmaker.

His passing/playmaking, I think this is the area where Lawson has the best chance for growth over the next few years. I think changes to his scoring and defense/rebounding will be more minor in nature but there is a good chance for strong improvement as a playmaker.

------------------------------------------

I have Ty Lawson ranked around 12th or 13th amongst starting PGs. Down around Goran Dragic and Mike Conley. I don't consider him a near All-Star or borderline All-Star. I have him as a slightly above average starter.

I guess I could go to $8-9 million per annum for Lawson. Not comfortable going over the $10 million threshold.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2012, 10:41:21 AM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
The point guard position became a heck of a lot deeper in the league after the no hand-check rule came about.

I remember all the crap PG's Danny tried out.  Shammond Williams, JR Bremer, Strickland, Allan Ray, etc. etc. etc.  Oh boy, we were desperate for a PG.  And now it's a position of depth?

I don't think the talent has changed much.  Nash/Kidd became CP/Deron Williams.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
I think Ty Lawson is a pretty weak defensive player. He is really limited by his lack of size. Very weak on shot-contests. Dead in the water any time he is forced to switch onto a bigger player. Less effective in double teams. Can't defend post-ups. Just a lot of issues. Good pressure defender on ball-handlers but far more negatives than positives defensively. A net negative defensively. I also consider him a below par rebounder. Not a good possession creator but not too large a negative either. I think Lawson's size will always limit him as a defender/rebounder and do not see much upside here.

Offensively, a good scorer (16-18ppg). Very efficient (TS% 57-59%). Pretty good shooter. 

But again, Ty Lawson's size limits him. There are a large number of times where he gets dribble penetration (into the paint or that midrange area) but is unable to get off a quality shot attempt against the size and length of opposing teams (much more often than most PGs). In fairness to him, Lawson is smart enough to realize this and doesn't waste possessions away on low percentage shots in those situations and passes it the ball back out.

But that does make me believe that Lawson is already pretty close to his ceiling as a scorer because he can't create that needed room to get extra shots off without it taking a big dent in his scoring efficiency. Plus, on a Denver team that was desperate for go-to scoring, Lawson was unable to provide that extra scoring punch. So I think he is best off in that 15-18ppg bracket as a third option (very efficient) type scorer. I don't see a lot of upside for him as a scorer.

As a passer, again, I think his size limits him. A lot like Jameer Nelson, there are lot of passes that he is unable to make. Opportunities that he doesn't capitalize on. Maybe he finds a way to improve that in time, maybe he doesn't.

On the plus side - Lawson is a good floor general, smart decision maker, controls the tempo very well and enables good ball movement. Quick decision maker as well as a good one. Not much wasted action. Very strong drive and kick game (much better than a guy like Jameer Nelson). His speed enables that part of his game to be very consistent as a playmaker.

His passing/playmaking, I think this is the area where Lawson has the best chance for growth over the next few years. I think changes to his scoring and defense/rebounding will be more minor in nature but there is a good chance for strong improvement as a playmaker.

------------------------------------------

I have Ty Lawson ranked around 12th or 13th amongst starting PGs. Down around Goran Dragic and Mike Conley. I don't consider him a near All-Star or borderline All-Star. I have him as a slightly above average starter.

I guess I could go to $8-9 million per annum for Lawson. Not comfortable going over the $10 million threshold.
As others have noted about Bradley's size and his defensive abilities, I think Lawson's size is being largely over rated in your evaluations of him as a basketball player and ability to play defense and offense. He is a half inch shorter than Chris Paul with a longer standing reach and is faster than Paul. I have never heard anyone criticize Paul's defense or ability to pass because of his size.

I find these criticisms of Lawson to be somewhat nonsensical.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2012, 11:48:25 AM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52967
  • Tommy Points: 2570
I think Ty Lawson is a pretty weak defensive player. He is really limited by his lack of size. Very weak on shot-contests. Dead in the water any time he is forced to switch onto a bigger player. Less effective in double teams. Can't defend post-ups. Just a lot of issues. Good pressure defender on ball-handlers but far more negatives than positives defensively. A net negative defensively. I also consider him a below par rebounder. Not a good possession creator but not too large a negative either. I think Lawson's size will always limit him as a defender/rebounder and do not see much upside here.

Offensively, a good scorer (16-18ppg). Very efficient (TS% 57-59%). Pretty good shooter. 

But again, Ty Lawson's size limits him. There are a large number of times where he gets dribble penetration (into the paint or that midrange area) but is unable to get off a quality shot attempt against the size and length of opposing teams (much more often than most PGs). In fairness to him, Lawson is smart enough to realize this and doesn't waste possessions away on low percentage shots in those situations and passes it the ball back out.

But that does make me believe that Lawson is already pretty close to his ceiling as a scorer because he can't create that needed room to get extra shots off without it taking a big dent in his scoring efficiency. Plus, on a Denver team that was desperate for go-to scoring, Lawson was unable to provide that extra scoring punch. So I think he is best off in that 15-18ppg bracket as a third option (very efficient) type scorer. I don't see a lot of upside for him as a scorer.

As a passer, again, I think his size limits him. A lot like Jameer Nelson, there are lot of passes that he is unable to make. Opportunities that he doesn't capitalize on. Maybe he finds a way to improve that in time, maybe he doesn't.

On the plus side - Lawson is a good floor general, smart decision maker, controls the tempo very well and enables good ball movement. Quick decision maker as well as a good one. Not much wasted action. Very strong drive and kick game (much better than a guy like Jameer Nelson). His speed enables that part of his game to be very consistent as a playmaker.

His passing/playmaking, I think this is the area where Lawson has the best chance for growth over the next few years. I think changes to his scoring and defense/rebounding will be more minor in nature but there is a good chance for strong improvement as a playmaker.

------------------------------------------

I have Ty Lawson ranked around 12th or 13th amongst starting PGs. Down around Goran Dragic and Mike Conley. I don't consider him a near All-Star or borderline All-Star. I have him as a slightly above average starter.

I guess I could go to $8-9 million per annum for Lawson. Not comfortable going over the $10 million threshold.
As others have noted about Bradley's size and his defensive abilities, I think Lawson's size is being largely over rated in your evaluations of him as a basketball player and ability to play defense and offense. He is a half inch shorter than Chris Paul with a longer standing reach and is faster than Paul. I have never heard anyone criticize Paul's defense or ability to pass because of his size.

I find these criticisms of Lawson to be somewhat nonsensical.

Okay, I'll try to say it differently:

(1) Chris Paul is a far more varied and versatile scoring threat. Ty Lawson is too reliant on shots right at the rim and long distance jump shots. He lacks the midrange game of Chris Paul and those short floaters Paul uses to avoid shot-blockers which is why Ty Lawson is often unable to get off quality shot attempts on his dribble penetration. Lawson also has that odd (slow?) release on his jump-shot which I think makes him need more space to get off his pull-up jump shots.. Ty Lawson's lack of skill (as a shooter/scorer especially in midrange and short range areas) combined with his physical limitations, limits his ability as a scorer.

(2) Ty Lawson's vision and passing ability are good but unexceptional. CP3's vision and ability to thread the needle in close spaces is exceptional.

(3) Chris Paul is a good but unexceptional defensive player. He is not an elite defender because of his lack of size. He shares some of the same flaws as Ty Lawson. That lack of size/length and inability to contest shot-attempts at a high level especially on close-outs. Chris Paul also provides strengths that Ty Lawson does not have which allow him to be better defender. Paul is far more active on team defense, gets more deflections, makes more defensive plays and creates turnovers at a very high level. He also has a lot more physical toughness and defensive smarts. Those added positive contributions (that Lawson does not have) make Chris Paul a plus defender despite some of the problems his lack of size creates (problems which stop him being a top class defender).

To compare Lawson to another small PG in Aaron Brooks. Both guys have similar flaws in allowing opposing PGs shoot a good percentage on them and an inability to close out on perimeter shooters at an effective level. Unlike Brooks, Lawson has much more physical strength which allows him to compete better defensively in numerous areas and helps Lawson be a superior defender to Brooks (who is atrocious on defense).

(4) Chris Paul is a very good possession creator. He rebounds well and creates lots of turnovers. He is great at picking up extra possessions for his team.

Forgot to say earlier, Ty Lawson does a really good job protecting possessions and avoiding turnovers. He doesn't create extra possessions but he does a very good job protecting possessions.

--------------------------------------------

(a) In terms of Chris Paul's defense, he does get criticism on defense and it is related to his lack of size. It's not common but it is out there.

(b) Size can be an important weapon in many instances in passing ability. Being able to see over the top of your defender is a good advantage (in pick and rolls, post entry passes, post ups). It's not a "be all and end all" but it does play a role.

----------------------------------------------

Size without skill is meaningless. Skill without size can be meaningful.

Skill plus size can be deadly.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 11:55:16 AM by Who »

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2012, 11:51:50 AM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
The point guard position became a heck of a lot deeper in the league after the no hand-check rule came about.

I remember all the crap PG's Danny tried out.  Shammond Williams, JR Bremer, Strickland, Allan Ray, etc. etc. etc.  Oh boy, we were desperate for a PG.  And now it's a position of depth?

I don't think the talent has changed much.  Nash/Kidd became CP/Deron Williams.

You forgot Telfair  :-X
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 11:57:08 AM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
The point guard position became a heck of a lot deeper in the league after the no hand-check rule came about.

I remember all the crap PG's Danny tried out.  Shammond Williams, JR Bremer, Strickland, Allan Ray, etc. etc. etc.  Oh boy, we were desperate for a PG.  And now it's a position of depth?

I don't think the talent has changed much.  Nash/Kidd became CP/Deron Williams.

You forgot Telfair  :-X

Oh great, thanks (anticipates flashback nightmares).

Remember when Shammond Williams and KG got T'd up in a game against Minny?  Both coaches went to the ref's and had to explain that they're cousins.  Go figure.

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 12:29:47 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4673
  • Tommy Points: 1043
The point guard position became a heck of a lot deeper in the league after the no hand-check rule came about.

I remember all the crap PG's Danny tried out.  Shammond Williams, JR Bremer, Strickland, Allan Ray, etc. etc. etc.  Oh boy, we were desperate for a PG.  And now it's a position of depth?

I don't think the talent has changed much.  Nash/Kidd became CP/Deron Williams.

You forgot Telfair  :-X

Marcus Banks.... Dan Dickau

CELTICS 2024

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 02:46:55 PM »

Offline action781

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 611

(3) Chris Paul is a good but unexceptional defensive player. He is not an elite defender because of his lack of size. He shares some of the same flaws as Ty Lawson. That lack of size/length and inability to contest shot-attempts at a high level especially on close-outs. Chris Paul also provides strengths that Ty Lawson does not have which allow him to be better defender. Paul is far more active on team defense, gets more deflections, makes more defensive plays and creates turnovers at a very high level. He also has a lot more physical toughness and defensive smarts. Those added positive contributions (that Lawson does not have) make Chris Paul a plus defender despite some of the problems his lack of size creates (problems which stop him being a top class defender).


I think Chris Paul is one of the elite PG defenders in the NBA.  How many can you name that are better than him?   The rules of the game make the point guard position a very difficult one to defend compared to the other positions.  He may not shut PGs down like other positional players are able to do to their oppositional counterparts, but other positions don't have such large numbers of starters who get routinely burned on defense like Calderon, Nash, Sessions, Devin Harris, Tony Parker at times, Bibby (when he was a starter), ...

If CP doesn't shut down players as well as you like, he also doesn't get abused by them like many other point guards (even Rondo quite a bit, frankly) do.
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 03:16:35 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52967
  • Tommy Points: 2570

(3) Chris Paul is a good but unexceptional defensive player. He is not an elite defender because of his lack of size. He shares some of the same flaws as Ty Lawson. That lack of size/length and inability to contest shot-attempts at a high level especially on close-outs. Chris Paul also provides strengths that Ty Lawson does not have which allow him to be better defender. Paul is far more active on team defense, gets more deflections, makes more defensive plays and creates turnovers at a very high level. He also has a lot more physical toughness and defensive smarts. Those added positive contributions (that Lawson does not have) make Chris Paul a plus defender despite some of the problems his lack of size creates (problems which stop him being a top class defender).


I think Chris Paul is one of the elite PG defenders in the NBA.  How many can you name that are better than him?   The rules of the game make the point guard position a very difficult one to defend compared to the other positions.  He may not shut PGs down like other positional players are able to do to their oppositional counterparts, but other positions don't have such large numbers of starters who get routinely burned on defense like Calderon, Nash, Sessions, Devin Harris, Tony Parker at times, Bibby (when he was a starter), ...

If CP doesn't shut down players as well as you like, he also doesn't get abused by them like many other point guards (even Rondo quite a bit, frankly) do.

Amongst starting PGs, off the top of my head, I am thinking ... I'd rank Chris Paul somewhere in the 7-11 range (well above average but not elite).

George Hill. Jrue Holiday. Rajon Rondo. Kyle Lowry. Russell Westbrook. Derrick Rose. Bradley would obviously be here too.

I'd put Chris Paul in the next tier. Along with Ricky Rubio. Deron Williams. Mario Chalmers. Maybe Brandon Jennings. Tony Parker (who is a much improved defender over the last few years). Mike Conley also.

----------------------------------

Typically, I am not a fan of small guards (PGs or SGs).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 03:33:27 PM by Who »

Re: Is Ty Lawson the next star to be traded?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2012, 10:22:24 PM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
The point guard position became a heck of a lot deeper in the league after the no hand-check rule came about.

I remember all the crap PG's Danny tried out.  Shammond Williams, JR Bremer, Strickland, Allan Ray, etc. etc. etc.  Oh boy, we were desperate for a PG.  And now it's a position of depth?

I don't think the talent has changed much.  Nash/Kidd became CP/Deron Williams.

You forgot Telfair  :-X

Marcus Banks.... Dan Dickau
Dickau was next
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!