With the signing of Barbosa, does Bradley become main trade chip?

[Fafnir]

Is Pierce too old to be a trade chip at this point?

If we could trade Pierce + assets for Josh Smith, I'd be comfortable starting Jeff Green at SF.

I like that too but no sure why Atlanta would do that after dumping Joe Johnson.  Nobody is going to want Pierce at his current salary.  I believe he also has a no trade clause.

I don't think that trading Pierce for Smith makes us a better team.

Probably not this year, but definitely next year and onward it would make us better.

I still wouldn't do it myself.

The question you'd then have to ask yourself is whether a Rondo / Smith / Green core going forward is good enough to win.  I'm not sure it would be, and the thought of tying $15+ million of our cap up in Josh Smith scares me.

As things stand, we're currently a title contender, and probably the one team that can challenge Miami in the East.  I don't think it would make a lot of sense for us to trade Pierce, who is still an excellent player on both ends.

If you're going to build around Rondo, a good place to start is with a similarly aged all-star caliber PF who can run the floor and defend.

I do agree that as a "core" I have my doubts about Rondo/Smith/Green. But that's mostly doubts about Green being up to the task of being an impact player.

[wdleehi]

Is Pierce too old to be a trade chip at this point?

If we could trade Pierce + assets for Josh Smith, I'd be comfortable starting Jeff Green at SF.

I like that too but no sure why Atlanta would do that after dumping Joe Johnson.  Nobody is going to want Pierce at his current salary.  I believe he also has a no trade clause.

I don't think that trading Pierce for Smith makes us a better team.

Probably not this year, but definitely next year and onward it would make us better.

I still wouldn't do it myself.

The question you'd then have to ask yourself is whether a Rondo / Smith / Green core going forward is good enough to win.  I'm not sure it would be, and the thought of tying $15+ million of our cap up in Josh Smith scares me.

As things stand, we're currently a title contender, and probably the one team that can challenge Miami in the East.  I don't think it would make a lot of sense for us to trade Pierce, who is still an excellent player on both ends.

If you're going to build around Rondo, a good place to start is with a similarly aged all-star caliber PF who can run the floor and defend.

I do agree that as a "core" I have my doubts about Rondo/Smith/Green. But that's mostly doubts about Green being up to the task of being an impact player.

That is not a good core.  A team with Smith as the best scorer? 





As to the original point, this move does not make AB more or less likely to be traded. 

[DarkAzcura]

That is not a good core.  A team with Smith as the best scorer? 





As to the original point, this move does not make AB more or less likely to be traded.

I don't think it's necessarily gonna be AB, but this move definitely makes a trade more likely to happen.

I don't understand why people are so high on Lee but not at least as high on Barbosa. I'm assuming it has something to do with Lee being a bit bigger and closer to a typical SG's size? I'm not saying you fit in this group, and I'm just making a general observation. It may be because Lee has actually played a couple games for us. Barbosa has proven so much more in this league (than Lee), and I truly believe his lack of production (lower FG%) has had more to do with mismanagement/lack of a real system since leaving Phoenix. I said it in another thread, but his per minute production has remained consistent even in his off years (FG%).

Hell, he was still producing just as much as Lee last season in 10 less MPG at similar efficiencies (edge to Lee). I can't really remember him having any significant injuries, and he will barely be 30 fairly soon. If Rondo can be Barbosa's former Steve Nash, the C's could get this guy back on the break doing good stuff, which will hopefully bring his efficiency back up (which was waaaay up there).

Then again, there is a reason we got him for the minimum and a reason he is still available at this point in time. I'm definitely interested to see what Barbosa can do for us, and based on the numbers, Barbosa, seemingly, is better than Lee. Lee has the leg up on the defensive end, though. I haven't seen the guy play much before, but I've seen him play just as much as Terry and Lee so I'm really basing everything between these three guys off of stats.

So, yes, I do believe having a fifth guard who "deserves" 28-30 MPG means a trade is more likely to happen. In the end I could be wrong about Barbosa, but when everyone wanted a fifth guard on this team to stick at the end of the bench, I didn't expect it to be a player of Barbosa's caliber. He isn't a House, Dooling, or some other guard at the end of their careers with vet experience.

[wdleehi]

That is not a good core.  A team with Smith as the best scorer? 





As to the original point, this move does not make AB more or less likely to be traded.

I don't think it's necessarily gonna be AB, but this move definitely makes a trade more likely to happen.

I don't understand why people are so high on Lee but not at least as high on Barbosa. I'm assuming it has something to do with Lee being a bit bigger and closer to a typical SG's size? I'm not saying you fit in this group, and I'm just making a general observation. It may be because Lee has actually played a couple games for us. Barbosa has proven so much more in this league (than Lee), and I truly believe his lack of production (lower FG%) has had more to do with mismanagement/lack of a real system since leaving Phoenix. I said it in another thread, but his per minute production has remained consistent even in his off years (FG%).

Hell, he was still producing just as much as Lee last season in 10 less MPG at similar efficiencies (edge to Lee). I can't really remember him having any significant injuries, and he will barely be 30 fairly soon. If Rondo can be Barbosa's former Steve Nash, the C's could get this guy back on the break doing good stuff, which will hopefully bring his efficiency back up (which was waaaay up there).

Then again, there is a reason we got him for the minimum and a reason he is still available at this point in time. I'm definitely interested to see what Barbosa can do for us, and based on the numbers, Barbosa, seemingly, is better than Lee. Lee has the leg up on the defensive end, though. I haven't seen the guy play much before, but I've seen him play just as much as Terry and Lee so I'm really basing everything between these three guys off of stats.

So, yes, I do believe having a fifth guard who "deserves" 28-30 MPG means a trade is more likely to happen. In the end I could be wrong about Barbosa, but when everyone wanted a fifth guard on this team to stick at the end of the bench, I didn't expect it to be a player of Barbosa's caliber. He isn't a House, Dooling, or some other guard at the end of their careers with vet experience.

Defense. 


Lee (and AB) are good defenders and good team defenders at the SG position.  Barbosa is simply an offensive spark off the bench at times. 


Lee (and AB) provided something different then Terry.  Barbosa produces a similar but lesser game then Terry.



Barbosa is an upgrade of the spare guard over the two NBDL guards they just waived in terms of talent and experience.  If pressed into service, he will help the Celtics, but there are better options on the team already.

[Chris]

Barbosa is an upgrade of the spare guard over the two NBDL guards they just waived in terms of talent and experience.  If pressed into service, he will help the Celtics, but there are better options on the team already.

This.  He is a GREAT 5th guard, but much more iffy when he gets further into the rotation.

Really though, I think the key to the OPs question is that I don't think Bradley has all that much value.  His resume is just very iffy, when another GM looks at giving up value for him.

(Disclaimer, this is going to sound overly critical, but GMs ARE overly critical when it comes to investing significant assets on trading for a player.)

He looked like a terrible player for 3/4 of his NBA career to this point, and then put together a nice run of a couple months last year, where he showed he is an elite defender, and can be passable on offense when completely ignored.  For much of that stretch he shot at a level that he has never shot before, and it is very questionable whether he will again.

He also is an undersized SG, who had two separate shoulder injuries that needed surgery last year, and has had other injuries in the past that might suggest he could struggle to hold up facing guys much bigger than him night after night.

Now, he also has a high upside.  They know he is an elite level defender...although it remains to be seen what position he should defend going forward.  He is at his best defending PGs, but since he is not a PG offensively, it makes for a tougher job to find a backcourt mate, because ideally you would want a guy who can run the point, but defend the SG.  Now, his athleticism does allow him to defend most SGs, but that does take away some of his effectiveness pressuring the ball, and it also brings into the question of his durability, getting beat up by bigger guys night in and night out.

Offensively, there is also a lot of upside.  His quickness is a real asset, and he showed that he has at least a solid shooting stroke (potentially better than average, but it remains to be seen what a larger sample size, and more pressure on his shooting will hold), and he is a good finisher at the basket, with some slashing ability developing.  Mostly though, his offense is still a big questionmark, because of the way he was defended last year, and the small sample size.

So, when a GM tries to give him a value, I just don't think they can count on him as anything more than a defensive role player, with potential to be more, but also some red flags.

And for the C's, I think he represents greater value.  Since they don't have to give up anything to get him, then it is all upside for them.  And it is going to take a lot more value to pry him away, than I think anyone will be willing to give up.

[Celtics18]

Trading Avery Bradley right now makes zero sense to me.  I'm in the camp that's very high on his future, but let's be realistic, he's a young man that's played all of 1,500 NBA minutes and recovering from double shoulder surgery.  Basically, I don't think there's anyway we could get equal value for him at this point.

Personally, I think his value will be much higher in another year or two.  Unless we can trade him straight up for a Josh Smith calibre player (which obviously we can't), it doesn't make any sense to trade him now.

[bfrombleacher]

Is Barbosa playing against the 6ers?

[Chris]

Is Barbosa playing against the 6ers?

Last I heard, the soonest he might be ready is Sunday.  Apparently he had visa issues. 

[Celtics18]

Is Barbosa playing against the 6ers?

Last I heard, the soonest he might be ready is Sunday.  Apparently he had visa issues.

How do you have visa issues when you've been playing ball professionally and living in the States for almost 10 years?  Does Stern have minions in the INS, as well?

[SHAQATTACK]

Mixed feelings. I know D Wade hopes so

appaulse !!!Yes .... we  NEED BRADLEY !!!  TO help stop WADE and NASH .

Lee is a great addition, but Wade will use him up .  AB is the "STOPPER" our atheltic answer to Wade, ROse, Nash...and other guard trying to take over a game.

After after the big Three ,  AB is the next important player that is a GAME CHANGER .

Celtics CAN'T afford to let AB go.  AB and Sullinger are very unqiue pieces for this team. 

Green and his salary will have to go get Smith. 

Josh Smith > than Green +Bass

AB is one of the coolest players to come along in a very long time. 

[Chris]

Is Barbosa playing against the 6ers?

Last I heard, the soonest he might be ready is Sunday.  Apparently he had visa issues.

How do you have visa issues when you've been playing ball professionally and living in the States for almost 10 years?  Does Stern have minions in the INS, as well?

I am assuming he needs to get a new visa (or at least update the paperwork) each time he signs a new contract.  Or something like that. 

From what I read, that was why he didn't play last night.  I got the impression that if they really wanted to, they could get him to Albany by tomorrow, but they weren't rushing it. 

I just don't think they are that concerned with rushing him into the lineup in general.  I think the week of practice before the first real game is much more important to them than these preseason games.

[Mencius]

...
I don't understand why people are so high on Lee but not at least as high on Barbosa. I'm assuming it has something to do with Lee being a bit bigger and closer to a typical SG's size? I'm not saying you fit in this group, and I'm just making a general observation. It may be because Lee has actually played a couple games for us. Barbosa has proven so much more in this league (than Lee), and I truly believe his lack of production (lower FG%) has had more to do with mismanagement/lack of a real system since leaving Phoenix. I said it in another thread, but his per minute production has remained consistent even in his off years (FG%).

Hell, he was still producing just as much as Lee last season in 10 less MPG at similar efficiencies (edge to Lee). I can't really remember him having any significant injuries, and he will barely be 30 fairly soon. If Rondo can be Barbosa's former Steve Nash, the C's could get this guy back on the break doing good stuff, which will hopefully bring his efficiency back up (which was waaaay up there).
...
 In the end I could be wrong about Barbosa, but when everyone wanted a fifth guard on this team to stick at the end of the bench, I didn't expect it to be a player of Barbosa's caliber. He isn't a House, Dooling, or some other guard at the end of their careers with vet experience.

I agree with your take on Barbosa.  I think he may well be just as good as Lee and maybe even better.  Sure, his production has fallen off in recent years, but alongside Rondo, he could have a rebirth.  He was, after all, 6th man of the year just 5 years ago, and he's still not yet 30.  So, I too, agree that his addition makes it more possible for Danny to pull off a trade if he wants to.  For salaries exceeding 10M, it'll likely be Bass and Lee going out (plus sweeteners).  But if Lee goes out, then I'd not include Avery as one of those sweeteners. 

I really like the Barbosa signing.  It's gives us a lot of flexibility.

[goCeltics]

think bradley could be package with one of green/bass and sully/melo

bradley + bass + melo for varejao

or

bradly + green + melo for varejao + casspi

bradley + bass + melo for millsap

green + bradley + sully gortat + dudley

[snively]

Barbosa is an upgrade of the spare guard over the two NBDL guards they just waived in terms of talent and experience.  If pressed into service, he will help the Celtics, but there are better options on the team already.

This.  He is a GREAT 5th guard, but much more iffy when he gets further into the rotation.

Really though, I think the key to the OPs question is that I don't think Bradley has all that much value.  His resume is just very iffy, when another GM looks at giving up value for him.

(Disclaimer, this is going to sound overly critical, but GMs ARE overly critical when it comes to investing significant assets on trading for a player.)

He looked like a terrible player for 3/4 of his NBA career to this point, and then put together a nice run of a couple months last year, where he showed he is an elite defender, and can be passable on offense when completely ignored.  For much of that stretch he shot at a level that he has never shot before, and it is very questionable whether he will again.

He also is an undersized SG, who had two separate shoulder injuries that needed surgery last year, and has had other injuries in the past that might suggest he could struggle to hold up facing guys much bigger than him night after night.

Now, he also has a high upside.  They know he is an elite level defender...although it remains to be seen what position he should defend going forward.  He is at his best defending PGs, but since he is not a PG offensively, it makes for a tougher job to find a backcourt mate, because ideally you would want a guy who can run the point, but defend the SG.  Now, his athleticism does allow him to defend most SGs, but that does take away some of his effectiveness pressuring the ball, and it also brings into the question of his durability, getting beat up by bigger guys night in and night out.

Offensively, there is also a lot of upside.  His quickness is a real asset, and he showed that he has at least a solid shooting stroke (potentially better than average, but it remains to be seen what a larger sample size, and more pressure on his shooting will hold), and he is a good finisher at the basket, with some slashing ability developing.  Mostly though, his offense is still a big questionmark, because of the way he was defended last year, and the small sample size.

So, when a GM tries to give him a value, I just don't think they can count on him as anything more than a defensive role player, with potential to be more, but also some red flags.

And for the C's, I think he represents greater value.  Since they don't have to give up anything to get him, then it is all upside for them.  And it is going to take a lot more value to pry him away, than I think anyone will be willing to give up.

First off, Barbosa is only a few seasons removed from being one of the best 6th men in basketball.   He may not regain that form, but if he comes close, he qualifies as a fine 3rd guard.

Second, your points about Bradley are all well and good, but GMs aren't always so gunshy about giving up value for young guards of uncertain potential.  Remember what New Jersey gave up for Courtney Lee and Devin Harris?  Look at what Orlando gave up for Arron Aflalo, what New Orleans paid to an injury prone Eric Gordon, what Houston paid Jeremy Lin...

Avery Bradley showed off All-NBA defense with a very solid complimentary offensive game and received rave reviews from some of the biggest names in the game (broadcasters and players like LBJ) before suffering a non-critical injury.  He's one of the most promising perimeter defensive specialists in a league featuring D-Wade, D-Rose, Westbrook and Rondo as some of the premiere threats in the game.  I think you may be underestimating his appeal.

[arambone]

most of the young stars are pg/combo guard types. Thats the foreseeable future of the nba, super athletic guards exploiting the no handcheck rule.

Rondo, rose, paul, westbrook, wade, d williams, wall, parker, irving, gordon, rivers, harden, curry, nash, etc, etc.

Having a shutdown guy who can handle these stars is about as valuable as having one of those stars. Which kinda means a healthy bradley is among those undersized stars, and in some cases, their equal or superior.

I get the feeling bradley is well liked by fans across the league for his quiet blue collar demeanor.

Defensive stars have been voted all stars before, and bradley can create dunk highlights at an elite level.

Rondo and Bradley. I think that might be a sports illustrated cover at some point.