doc: "ray wanted the ball more, and wanted more pick+roll plays for him"

[CelticHooligan3]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Heres the other thing.. If im the head coach of any NBA team and ray is on the floor im telling his man to never double team lebron or wade no matter what. I'd send any other player to collapse on those two, but knowing the three ball is coming from Ray i'd always keep his man glued to him. Seems pretty self evident to me too. That's his strength, why feed into it? at the end of the day, a three is still worth more than a two. With way less screens and movement away from the ball ray can be easily neutralized.

[Celtics4ever]

Much easier to guard a spot than a man, going to be priceless seeing Avery swat him.

[celticinorlando]

i think things are going to get a bit ugly with ray and the Cs...i think Doc is really angry about how it all went down

[mmmmm]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Heres the other thing.. If im the head coach of any NBA team and ray is on the floor im telling his man to never double team lebron or wade no matter what. I'd send any other player to collapse on those two, but knowing the three ball is coming from Ray i'd always keep his man glued to him. Seems pretty self evident to me too. That's his strength, why feed into it? at the end of the day, a three is still worth more than a two. With way less screens and movement away from the ball ray can be easily neutralized.

Well, that of course presumes your guys can defend Lebron without doubling him.

But yeah, I mean, this was the same value that Ray Allen provided the Celtics - teams can't afford to leave a 3PT shooter who can shoot over 40% alone.  So Ray would drag some shmoe all over the court and away from the paint, helping to open things up for Pierce, KG & Rondo.

Whether he moves through screens or rotates to spots along the perimeter, he's going to provide the same kind of threat for the Heat.

The way you neutralize is either by defending everyone straight up - no doubling.  If you can't do that then with defenders who can help and then still recover fast enough to contest his shot without fouling.

[Eja117]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Based on his comments they sold him on having a larger role than that.

You mean he gets to carry Dwayne and Lebron's bags too? Such a deal.

[CelticHooligan3]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Heres the other thing.. If im the head coach of any NBA team and ray is on the floor im telling his man to never double team lebron or wade no matter what. I'd send any other player to collapse on those two, but knowing the three ball is coming from Ray i'd always keep his man glued to him. Seems pretty self evident to me too. That's his strength, why feed into it? at the end of the day, a three is still worth more than a two. With way less screens and movement away from the ball ray can be easily neutralized.

Well, that of course presumes your guys can defend Lebron without doubling him.

But yeah, I mean, this was the same value that Ray Allen provided the Celtics - teams can't afford to leave a 3PT shooter who can shoot over 40% alone.  So Ray would drag some shmoe all over the court and away from the paint, helping to open things up for Pierce, KG & Rondo.

Whether he moves through screens or rotates to spots along the perimeter, he's going to provide the same kind of threat for the Heat.

The way you neutralize is either by defending everyone straight up - no doubling.  If you can't do that then with defenders who can help and then still recover fast enough to contest his shot without fouling.

The main point i was trying to make was just leave rays guy on him no matter what. Never use that man for the double team, and make that be the rule. In other words, don't cheat off of ray no matter the situation. Keep his guy glued to him. The heat will be far less likely to actually run ray through screens and make him be the focal point of their offense, so if that's the case he has a real hard time shedding his man.  We've all seen that here first hand for about two seasons now. As others have said his ball handling abilities seem to have decreased as has his mobility and speed. His game is dependent on those things to get him open looks. I can see him becoming very frustrated and creating more drama the less effective he becomes. His bloated self importance and reluctance to see his diminishing game as age conspires against him could really play into our hands. That's my hope at least.

[CelticG1]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Based on his comments they sold him on having a larger role than that.

Yeah and based on his comments he didn't have an issue with Rondo. The Heat can say whatever they wanted to entice him but I think prior to the season starting its hard to look at Ray on the Heat and think he will get more touches, shots, minutes or points with the Heat. Maybe ill be wrong but I don't see it. It will be hard to compare anyway since this would be a new year and role with Ray anyway but I just don't see how he thinks going from.a team like Boston who prides itself on ball movement, unselfishness,  has some of the best passers at their positions and going to Miami who has 3 guys who put up 65+ shots a game will get him more involved is just beyond me

[LooseCannon]

Maybe Ray thinks he can be a part-time point guard in Miami.

[Fafnir]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Based on his comments they sold him on having a larger role than that.

Yeah and based on his comments he didn't have an issue with Rondo. The Heat can say whatever they wanted to entice him but I think prior to the season starting its hard to look at Ray on the Heat and think he will get more touches, shots, minutes or points with the Heat. Maybe ill be wrong but I don't see it. It will be hard to compare anyway since this would be a new year and role with Ray anyway but I just don't see how he thinks going from.a team like Boston who prides itself on ball movement, unselfishness,  has some of the best passers at their positions and going to Miami who has 3 guys who put up 65+ shots a game will get him more involved is just beyond me

I agree with you that I don't think it will happen.

But with the Rondo issue Ray Allen has a reason to lie and pretend that their relationship wasn't an issue. With what convinced him to go to Miami he doesn't have the same motive, I believe they really did sell him that he'd be more "featured" than in Boston. Plus he probably thinks more of Bosh/LBJ/Wade so it might be easier on his ego to "defer" to them than Rondo/Bradley.

[Interceptor]

Maybe Ray thinks he can be a part-time point guard in Miami.

I don't see why not, it's already Point Guard By Committee down there anyway. Chalmers is third for assists behind LBJ and Wade, which is hilarious.

[AshyLarry]

"Jason is a motivated guy," Rivers said. "He's always been that. We needed another player who could score off the dribble, who could play in the pick-and-roll. Rondo could do it, Paul [Pierce] too, and we used Ray a little, but that was one of the things he was unhappy about. He wanted us to do it more, and I just didn't think he was as good at it."


ray thinks he hasn't lost his handles. Everyone except ray knows that ray isnt the ball handler he used to be.

I wouldn't say Ray's ball handling skills have gotten worse, but I will say that he handles it at half the pace, rendering his pick n roll play pointless. It would work for him, but there are just too many better options.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

I agree, which is why I despise "that guy" much more, because that MIA move is really just to stick it in our throats.

He wanted more touches even though the offense gets stagnant waiting for him to get open because the offense runs thru him. He wanted more money. And yet he went to the team who clearly will have him off the bench, diminished role and less money. What a diva "that guy" is.

[Neurotic Guy]

i think things are going to get a bit ugly with ray and the Cs...i think Doc is really angry about how it all went down

I agree that Doc seems to have some frustration about Ray's departure, but Doc appears to be an mature guy and he's a professional. I doubt it gets any uglier than it is now.  Doc might use Ray-anger as a motivator internally, but I don't think he'll be public about any real feud with Ray Allen. 

[j804]

i think things are going to get a bit ugly with ray and the Cs...i think Doc is really angry about how it all went down

I agree Ray lost a little respect for him whining on his way out the door and airing out a bunch of stuff to the media

[nickagneta]

Ray won't have to come off walls of screens to get open in Miami. When they run their offense through Lebron as LeBron is set up in the low post with Wade at the top of the key it opens up all sorts of wide open looks for players on the three point line in the corners and at the foul line extended areas of the floor.

All Ray will have to do is stand in one of those areas and when the double team comes to LeBron in the post or Wade at the top of the key after Lebron passes it to Wade, wait to get the wide open shot.

All true, but it is still a diminishing role for Ray, one which the ball will be in his hands less, not more.  Doc didn't say Ray was clamoring for more spot up shooting opportunities, he said he wanted more pick and roll chances, i.e. getting to initiate the play with the ball in his hand.  I doubt he gets a single opportunity to play that way in Miami.

Yeah I don't get this notion that Ray is going to be thrilled with the role of standing in the corner waiting for Lebron or Wade ti possibly throw him the ball for an open shot. And how many shots is Ray realistically even going to get a game? I highly doubt more than he didnin Boston

Heres the other thing.. If im the head coach of any NBA team and ray is on the floor im telling his man to never double team lebron or wade no matter what. I'd send any other player to collapse on those two, but knowing the three ball is coming from Ray i'd always keep his man glued to him. Seems pretty self evident to me too. That's his strength, why feed into it? at the end of the day, a three is still worth more than a two. With way less screens and movement away from the ball ray can be easily neutralized.

Well, that of course presumes your guys can defend Lebron without doubling him.

But yeah, I mean, this was the same value that Ray Allen provided the Celtics - teams can't afford to leave a 3PT shooter who can shoot over 40% alone.  So Ray would drag some shmoe all over the court and away from the paint, helping to open things up for Pierce, KG & Rondo.

Whether he moves through screens or rotates to spots along the perimeter, he's going to provide the same kind of threat for the Heat.

The way you neutralize is either by defending everyone straight up - no doubling.  If you can't do that then with defenders who can help and then still recover fast enough to contest his shot without fouling.

The main point i was trying to make was just leave rays guy on him no matter what. Never use that man for the double team, and make that be the rule. In other words, don't cheat off of ray no matter the situation. Keep his guy glued to him. The heat will be far less likely to actually run ray through screens and make him be the focal point of their offense, so if that's the case he has a real hard time shedding his man.  We've all seen that here first hand for about two seasons now. As others have said his ball handling abilities seem to have decreased as has his mobility and speed. His game is dependent on those things to get him open looks. I can see him becoming very frustrated and creating more drama the less effective he becomes. His bloated self importance and reluctance to see his diminishing game as age conspires against him could really play into our hands. That's my hope at least.

Yeah but if you do that then how do you defend Lebron in the low post? One on one? LeBron will eat everyone up if you do that.

If you double off Wade, that's foolish. You may as well just give the Heat 2 points and put Wade on the line for an "and one".

So your only choice, if you are going to double Lebron and Wade, depending on who has the ball, and leave single coverage on Ray is to double off Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Chris Bosh, James Jones or Mario Chalmers, depending on who is in the game. Bosh is deadly from 15 ft and in and a bad double off. Miller, Chalmers and Battier are all very good three point shooters too. Miller shot 45% from three last year. Battier has shot over 39% from three in four separate seasons. Chalmers improved to almost 39% from three last year. Jones has shot over 40% from three for his career.

Ray's role will be significant because of what it means to floor spacing for Miami and how far they can spread defenses opening holes for LeBron and Wade while leaving excellent three point shooters wide open.