The Horror!! SEA/GBP - NFL Officiating

[wdleehi]

Another view. This is a simultaneous catch imo.

BSPN and the like are once again not doing their homework.

No it is not.  The ball is against he defenders chest.  The receiver has his hand across the defenders arm.


He did a good job of catching the WR though.


And when on the ground as they roll, you can see the defenders body go between the WR and the ball.  So even if the WR had both hands on he ball, he has no control over it while the defender has it, but touches the defender down.

The rules don't say "who has the most control", just that both players have to have possession.

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

There are?  I see the offensive player getting separated from the ball by the defenders body as they land.  He has no control of that ball at that moment.  The defender is touched down at that point. 

[fairweatherfan]

Another view. This is a simultaneous catch imo.

Again, the key to me is whether the important phase is when the ball is initially caught, or when the catch ends.

When the ball's caught, Jennings has 2 hands firmly on it.  Tate has the fingertips, maybe the palm of his left hand on the ball, and his right hand has Jennings' arm.

By the time they hit the ground Tate has readjusted his grip and has at least his right and probably both hands on the ball. 

As I'm reading the rule, Jennings is the first to establish control, before Tate has a reasonable grip on the ball.  That's not simultaneous.  If the only time that matters for "gaining control" is when the catch is completed, then that does seem simultaneous.  But I've always thought gaining control is the beginning of a catch, not the end.

[kozlodoev]

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

There is also a rulebook saying that there's no simultaneous catch if one player established control first. And to me it seems like control is just an element of possession that needs to be maintained throughout the landing.

[angryguy77]

Another view. This is a simultaneous catch imo.

Again, the key to me is whether the important phase is when the ball is initially caught, or when the catch ends.

When the ball's caught, Jennings has 2 hands firmly on it.  Tate has the fingertips, maybe the palm of his left hand on the ball, and his right hand has Jennings' arm.

By the time they hit the ground Tate has readjusted his grip and has at least his right and probably both hands on the ball. 

As I'm reading the rule, Jennings is the first to establish control, before Tate has a reasonable grip on the ball.  That's not simultaneous.  If the only time that matters for "gaining control" is when the catch is completed, then that does seem simultaneous.  But I've always thought gaining control is the beginning of a catch, not the end.

They don't count possession before you hit the ground. If they were both on the ground at that point in the video, I'd say it was a pic, but control evened out by the time all feet hit the ground.

Tate's arm was between the ball and Jennings' chest, and his other hand was on the ball by the time they touched down.

In any case, this wasn't such an easy call to make.

[fairweatherfan]

The rules don't say "who has the most control", just that both players have to have possession.

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

The rule doesn't say anything about possession.

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

The key phrase is "gains control first".  How that's interpreted is the big difference here.  The rules appear to say "gaining control" is the first stage of a catch, but they don't use exactly the same phrasing so it's tricky:

    A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

    (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Step A seems to be gaining control, B+C are about maintaining it to complete the catch.  By my reading Jennings was ahead at Step A, and that's what the rule is referring to.

[kozlodoev]

There are?  I see the offensive player getting separated from the ball by the defenders body as they land.  He has no control of that ball at that moment.  The defender is touched down at that point.

Don't see this. Tate still has his left arm on the inside of Jennings' forearm, and two hands on the ball.

[indeedproceed]

SEATTLE—ESPN medical personnel confirmed Tuesday that analyst Steve Young suffered a traumatic brain injury Monday night while attempting to explain the referees’ confusing ruling of a touchdown on the last play of the Packers, Seahawks game.

“It’s evident that the replacement referees’ questionable, game-deciding call exerted a significant amount of trauma on Mr. Young’s brain and caused him to temporarily lose consciousness while attempting to grasp the rationale of calling that play a touchdown,” said neurologist Richard Spencer, adding that the woozy Young was helped off the ESPN broadcasting set immediately following his disoriented plea for the NFL to bring back the regular officials.

"Given Mr. Young's history, this is certainly serious. It’s not surprising that he’s exhibiting signs of cognitive impairment. That ball was intercepted." As of Tuesday morning, Young was reportedly resting comfortably at the Harbor View Medical Center saying that the last thing he remembers from Monday night was Golden Tate pushing a defender squarely in the back and knocking him to the ground before the final pass came down.

[kozlodoev]

The rules don't say "who has the most control", just that both players have to have possession.

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

The rule doesn't say anything about possession.

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

The key phrase is "gains control first".  How that's interpreted is the big difference here.

I think we need to establish whether we use "possession" as a synonim for "control" or for "completed pass/catch". Two vastly different things.

[LB3533]

I originally thought it was a Green Bay interception all the way, but after further review, the Seattle Seahawk Receiver had two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground IN THE END Zone before the Green Bay Packer DB's feet touched.

It's a Seahawks TD and win. Case closed.

Control of the ball is not the same as possession of the ball.

A catch is not the same when the catch involves "out of bounds" or the "end zone" or just the "regular field of play".

In this circumstance, it was an "endzone" catch. No out of bounds at play here folks. There is no need for "completing the process of the catch"....none here folks.

The Seahawks receiver had 2 hands on the ball and 2 feet down in the endzone. The football broke the plane of the endzone and two feet were established in bounds.

Touchdown.

[fairweatherfan]

The rules don't say "who has the most control", just that both players have to have possession.

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

The rule doesn't say anything about possession.

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

The key phrase is "gains control first".  How that's interpreted is the big difference here.

I think we need to establish whether we use "possession" as a synonim for "control" or for "completed pass/catch". Two vastly different things.

See my edit - the rules on catching use a slightly different term (presumably just to make things more confusing), but they appear to me to identify gaining control as the first phase of a catch, and maintaining it as the second. 

Jennings gained control in the air, then Tate, and both maintained it to the ground.  But the letter of the rule seems to say the man who gained control first wins.

[angryguy77]

I originally thought it was a Green Bay interception all the way, but after further review, the Seattle Seahawk Receiver had two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground IN THE END Zone before the Green Bay Packer DB's feet touched.

It's a Seahawks TD and win. Case closed.

Control of the ball is not the same as possession of the ball.

A catch is not the same when the catch involves "out of bounds" or the "end zone" or just the "regular field of play".

In this circumstance, it was an "endzone" catch. No out of bounds at play here folks. There is no need for "completing the process of the catch"....none here folks.

The Seahawks receiver had 2 hands on the ball and 2 feet down in the endzone. The football broke the plane of the endzone and two feet were established in bounds.

Touchdown.

This.

[kozlodoev]

the Seattle Seahawk Receiver had two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground IN THE END Zone before the Green Bay Packer DB's feet touched.

Except if it's ruled that the GB defensive player gained control first and maintained it through hitting the ground, what you're citing is not enough to rule a TD.

It's awfully close though.

[Moranis]

The rules don't say "who has the most control", just that both players have to have possession.

Besides, you feet have to be touching the ground before possession is established. By the time both players are on the ground, there are 4 hand wrapped around the ball.

The rule doesn't say anything about possession.

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

The key phrase is "gains control first".  How that's interpreted is the big difference here.

I think we need to establish whether we use "possession" as a synonim for "control" or for "completed pass/catch". Two vastly different things.

See my edit - the rules on catching use a slightly different term (presumably just to make things more confusing), but they appear to me to identify gaining control as the first phase of a catch, and maintaining it as the second. 

Jennings gained control in the air, then Tate, and both maintained it to the ground.  But the letter of the rule seems to say the man who gained control first wins.

But what if Jennings came down out of bounds.  You can't separate control from possession, that is why both feet must come down.  When that happened here the offensive player was first down and still had control of the ball, which he had from the beginning.  Jennings may have had a firmer grip initially, but Tate was always in contact of the ball and his grip never left it, and he was the first one with both feet down. Thus it was in fact a simultaneous catch.

[Moranis]

I originally thought it was a Green Bay interception all the way, but after further review, the Seattle Seahawk Receiver had two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground IN THE END Zone before the Green Bay Packer DB's feet touched.

It's a Seahawks TD and win. Case closed.

Control of the ball is not the same as possession of the ball.

A catch is not the same when the catch involves "out of bounds" or the "end zone" or just the "regular field of play".

In this circumstance, it was an "endzone" catch. No out of bounds at play here folks. There is no need for "completing the process of the catch"....none here folks.

The Seahawks receiver had 2 hands on the ball and 2 feet down in the endzone. The football broke the plane of the endzone and two feet were established in bounds.

Touchdown.

Actually you do need to complete the catch even in the end zone.  See Calvin Johnson's no TD from last year.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

The referee blunders continues.

What a shame NFL, not wanting to pay their refs and resorting to this absurd officiating. Man, their stupidity was being mocked last night at Monday Night Raw, gold.