Current Hall of Famers?

[colincb]

I sure hope Rip Hamilton ain’t getting in because he has a ring at UConn and with the Pistons.

Rip Hamilton is a good one. Very much on the borderline.

Leading scorer on the 2004 Pistons title team (a rare type of title winner and success story). Lost another NBA Finals in a game seven that went down to the wire. What was it - 6 straight conference finals and 7 straight 50 win seasons? An NCAA title on top of that. That is a pretty impressive resume. 

I could see Rip getting in. Very close though. Could go either way. If Rip did get in, I think he'd have to wait a very long time though.

However, the way his career is finishing up isn't helping. It would be great if he could sort that out and be a good solid starter on a title contender for another 2-3 years.

According to the BB-reference model, Rip's got a 6% chance which are poorer odds than drawing to an inside straight.

[fairweatherfan]

since it's the basketball HOF I think Melo gets it when you add in his Cuse year

Grant probably gets in with help from his collegiate and international career, as you both had mentioned.

I think you guys are giving wayyyy too much weight to college careers.

CUT FOR SPACE

I think you're misreading the argument.  Despite the injuries, Grant Hill has strong career NBA numbers, AND a great college and international record.  And before the injuries, he was a legitimate top-10 player for several years.  And he's done a ton of work promoting the game and for charity.  And the media love him, which shouldn't matter but does. 

Most of the guys you're mentioning have at most two or three of those factors.  Of all the players listed, the only guys in the same neighborhood as Hill are Webber and Richmond, and arguably Tim Hardaway and Rip.  Which one of them has a better overall resume than Hill?

Same deal with Carmelo - his college ring (unlike Hill, as the #1 guy) and two gold medals (and a bronze) don't get him in by themselves, but if his final NBA resume is borderline, of course they'll be a factor in getting him over the edge. 

Nobody's saying college or international play alone gets someone in to the HOF, but rather that they bolster the overall chances. 

[Eja117]

since it's the basketball HOF I think Melo gets it when you add in his Cuse year

Grant probably gets in with help from his collegiate and international career, as you both had mentioned.

I think you guys are giving wayyyy too much weight to college careers.

Carmelo Anthony because he won a championship at Syracuse?

I sure hope Rip Hamilton ain’t getting in because he has a ring at UConn and with the Pistons.
Guys like Glen Rice, Danny Manning, perennial NBA All-Stars with college rings and MOP awards aren’t in the Hall, nor should they be.

Who’s in the HOF that wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for their college career?

Bill Walton, 3x college POY, 3x First Team All American, 2x college champion, 2x Final Four MVP, 88 game winning streak.
Ralph Sampson, 3x college POY. 3x First Team All American.

That’s all I can think of, plus Chris Mullin, who had a great college career (3x Big East POY) and a great international career (member of 2 of the best Olympic teams of all time, ’84 and ’92), with a pretty good NBA career.

But Bill Walton and Ralph Sampson weren't just good in college, they dominated, they transcended the game.  Unless something truly rare happens, no player is getting in for what he did in college anymore.  Nobody.  Christian Laettner had probably the best college career of anybody that has played since the 1990’s, also Dream Team member, NBA All-Star.  He’s not making the Hall of Fame as an individual (though he’s in with the Dream Team). Nobody has had as a big of an impact as the Fab Five, but Chris Webber, Juwan Howard, and Jalen Rose ain’t getting in, despite college careers that transcended the game and pretty successful NBA careers.


Plus after the ’92 Dream Team, US players international careers aren’t really a big deal (maybe if you won like 3 medals), but no way Grant Hill’s one Olympic gold medal and nice college career is going to cut it.

Now, international career matters if you're the face of basketball for an entire country.  So Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Yao Ming, I get it.  But just an Olympic appearance or two now just isn't enough if you're from the US.  Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Vin Baker, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antonio McDyess, Tim Hardaway, Steve Smith don’t belong in the conversation.  They’re not even close despite successful NBA careers AND international success with a gold medal.  That’s why I think Grant Hill doesn’t have a chance.

This is just me, but I think Melo has really really without even trying or planning it changed our basketball culture in two big ways. First he showed a kid could essentially go to college and have it all and get it all done in just one year. You could lead a team to a ring and hugely improve your draft stock and become a college legend in just a year. This made the one year college draft requirement a different scenario.

Second he has somewhat engineered the public trade demand dream team build. KG is different. He agreed to a trade when he wasn't happy in the first place AFTER Ray had already been added. Melo showed if you just pout long enough and loud enough a team might actually try to jump through hoops of fire to get you. Then Chris Paul did it, and now D Howard is doing it and the NBA might never be the same.

When you add in his two gold medals and his personal achievements he is a major player in our time even if we don't like him.  RIP never led a team to anything. Melo unfortunately has a bronze Olympic medal, which hurts his stock, but you have to give him some credit that he stuck around for some of the lesser rounds as well, such as winning gold at the FIBA Americas round, and bronze in two others.

I mean this guy is ALWAYS on the all star team.  I don't like it but he's one of the best of his time.

[Eja117]

It should be noted there are three guys in the HOF with only one all star appearance, a few with 2, and a few with 3.  It's also interesting to see who those guys are, and in at least one case college career definitely mattered

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_All-Stars

[Assassin70]

Shoo-ins:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James


On the Bubble:

Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Dwight Howard

I'm looking for additions, corrections, or other thoughts on what current NBA players have Hall of Fame resumes or not quite good enough ones.

EVERY i repeat EVERY single one of these people on the list...is in.  Will some not make it on the first ballot sure.  But all of them will get in.

[RebusRankin]

Locks:
Garnett
Nowitzki
Duncan
Nash
James
Wade
Allen
Bryant
Kidd

Very Likely
Paul
Howard
Parker
Gasol

Will be debated heavily
Hill
Carter
Mcgrady
Bosh
Anthony

[celtsfan84]

since it's the basketball HOF I think Melo gets it when you add in his Cuse year

Grant probably gets in with help from his collegiate and international career, as you both had mentioned.

I think you guys are giving wayyyy too much weight to college careers.

CUT FOR SPACE

I think you're misreading the argument.  Despite the injuries, Grant Hill has strong career NBA numbers, AND a great college and international record.  And before the injuries, he was a legitimate top-10 player for several years.  And he's done a ton of work promoting the game and for charity.  And the media love him, which shouldn't matter but does. 

Most of the guys you're mentioning have at most two or three of those factors.  Of all the players listed, the only guys in the same neighborhood as Hill are Webber and Richmond, and arguably Tim Hardaway and Rip.  Which one of them has a better overall resume than Hill?

Same deal with Carmelo - his college ring (unlike Hill, as the #1 guy) and two gold medals (and a bronze) don't get him in by themselves, but if his final NBA resume is borderline, of course they'll be a factor in getting him over the edge. 

Nobody's saying college or international play alone gets someone in to the HOF, but rather that they bolster the overall chances.

Yeah, I see Grant Hill's case for the Hall of Fame the same way that you do.  His college career and gold medal aren't the main factors in his favor, but they are minor factors that help his chances.

One should look to Calvin Murphy and Bill Bradley for guys who were aided by their collegiate / international track records and otherwise do not seem to be Hall of Fame players.

Grant Hill played at an elite level before his injury, as mentioned.  He was once third in the league in MVP voting, behind MJ and the Mailman.  He averaged about 22-8-6 for the first six years of his career before his injury and was still improving.  Now add his collegiate career, add a gold medal, and add his comeback as a solid role player all as garnish to the steak of his elite six-year run.

[celtsfan84]

Locks:
Garnett
Nowitzki
Duncan
Nash
James
Wade
Allen
Bryant
Kidd

Very Likely
Paul
Howard
Parker
Gasol

Will be debated heavily
Hill
Carter
Mcgrady
Bosh
Anthony

I would tend to agree with the tiers that you have set up.  In reference to the Basketball Reference model, it doesn't seem to take international play into consideration.  I would think that Manu Ginobili is close to a lock after leading Argentina over the USA in 2004.

I know there are criticisms of that 2004 team, but since the US started sending professionals to the Olympics, they have won gold in 92, 96, 00, 08, and 12.  04 was the lone miss and Manu Ginobili was the key reason.  Argentina doesn't beat a team with several Hall of Fame players without Manu.

Once his international achievements are added to his NBA resume, Manu looks like a solid candidate at least.

[celtsfan84]

since it's the basketball HOF I think Melo gets it when you add in his Cuse year

Grant probably gets in with help from his collegiate and international career, as you both had mentioned.

I think you guys are giving wayyyy too much weight to college careers.

Carmelo Anthony because he won a championship at Syracuse?

I sure hope Rip Hamilton ain’t getting in because he has a ring at UConn and with the Pistons.
Guys like Glen Rice, Danny Manning, perennial NBA All-Stars with college rings and MOP awards aren’t in the Hall, nor should they be.

Who’s in the HOF that wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for their college career?

Bill Walton, 3x college POY, 3x First Team All American, 2x college champion, 2x Final Four MVP, 88 game winning streak.
Ralph Sampson, 3x college POY. 3x First Team All American.

That’s all I can think of, plus Chris Mullin, who had a great college career (3x Big East POY) and a great international career (member of 2 of the best Olympic teams of all time, ’84 and ’92), with a pretty good NBA career.

But Bill Walton and Ralph Sampson weren't just good in college, they dominated, they transcended the game.  Unless something truly rare happens, no player is getting in for what he did in college anymore.  Nobody.  Christian Laettner had probably the best college career of anybody that has played since the 1990’s, also Dream Team member, NBA All-Star.  He’s not making the Hall of Fame as an individual (though he’s in with the Dream Team). Nobody has had as a big of an impact as the Fab Five, but Chris Webber, Juwan Howard, and Jalen Rose ain’t getting in, despite college careers that transcended the game and pretty successful NBA careers.


Plus after the ’92 Dream Team, US players international careers aren’t really a big deal (maybe if you won like 3 medals), but no way Grant Hill’s one Olympic gold medal and nice college career is going to cut it.

Now, international career matters if you're the face of basketball for an entire country.  So Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Yao Ming, I get it.  But just an Olympic appearance or two now just isn't enough if you're from the US.  Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Vin Baker, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antonio McDyess, Tim Hardaway, Steve Smith don’t belong in the conversation.  They’re not even close despite successful NBA careers AND international success with a gold medal.  That’s why I think Grant Hill doesn’t have a chance.

This is just me, but I think Melo has really really without even trying or planning it changed our basketball culture in two big ways. First he showed a kid could essentially go to college and have it all and get it all done in just one year. You could lead a team to a ring and hugely improve your draft stock and become a college legend in just a year. This made the one year college draft requirement a different scenario.

Second he has somewhat engineered the public trade demand dream team build. KG is different. He agreed to a trade when he wasn't happy in the first place AFTER Ray had already been added. Melo showed if you just pout long enough and loud enough a team might actually try to jump through hoops of fire to get you. Then Chris Paul did it, and now D Howard is doing it and the NBA might never be the same.

When you add in his two gold medals and his personal achievements he is a major player in our time even if we don't like him.  RIP never led a team to anything. Melo unfortunately has a bronze Olympic medal, which hurts his stock, but you have to give him some credit that he stuck around for some of the lesser rounds as well, such as winning gold at the FIBA Americas round, and bronze in two others.

I mean this guy is ALWAYS on the all star team.  I don't like it but he's one of the best of his time.

Trade demands in the NBA are as old as time.  This is not a new development or a trend set by Carmelo.

As far as trade demands to specific locations, Dwight wanted to go to Brooklyn according to all reports and CP3 wanted to go to the Knicks.  Neither one chose their eventual destination.  They were willing to accept it, and it might have been their second or third choices, but neither forced his way to their desired team.

Chris Paul's trade demand also wasn't really public.  Sure, we heard reports of it from sources, but if the internet and Twitter were around in the 70s, I'm sure we would have heard much of the same.  I could be wrong here, but I don't ever remember CP3 publicly saying he wanted out of New Orleans.

Denver received a pretty good return for Carmelo regardless.

[Cman]

My take:

Locks:
Garnett
Nowitzki
Duncan
Nash
James
Allen
Bryant
Kidd

Likely
Wade
Pierce
Paul
Howard
Parker
Gasol
Bosh
Anthony
Durant

Will be debated heavily
Hill
Carter
Mcgrady

[celtsfan84]

Here is my personal top 20 for potential active Hall of Fame candidates:

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett 
4. LeBron James
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Jason Kidd
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Paul Pierce
9. Steve Nash 
10. Ray Allen
11. Manu Ginobili
12. Chris Paul
13. Dwight Howard 
14. Pau Gasol
15. Carmelo Anthony
16. Tony Parker
17. Grant Hill
18. Chris Bosh
19. Vince Carter
20. Tracy McGrady

I see the top 14 as near certain Hall of Famers and the next 6 as debatable.

I left the newer crop of stars (Durant, Westbrook, Love, Griffin, Kyrie) off this list entirely as they all have some resume building to do and I attempted to stay away from projecting.

Derrick Rose is another interesting name to consider.  He already has an MVP trophy in his possession, which has proven to be the quickest ticket to the Hall of Fame.

[moiso]

I sure hope Rip Hamilton ain’t getting in because he has a ring at UConn and with the Pistons.

Rip Hamilton is a good one. Very much on the borderline.

Leading scorer on the 2004 Pistons title team (a rare type of title winner and success story). Lost another NBA Finals in a game seven that went down to the wire. What was it - 6 straight conference finals and 7 straight 50 win seasons? An NCAA title on top of that. That is a pretty impressive resume. 

I could see Rip getting in. Very close though. Could go either way. If Rip did get in, I think he'd have to wait a very long time though.

However, the way his career is finishing up isn't helping. It would be great if he could sort that out and be a good solid starter on a title contender for another 2-3 years.

When guys like Rip get in, it makes it less of an achievement to get in the Hall.  Same with guys like Carter and Ginobili.  If there has to be a debate about a player, I'm against them getting in.

[Celts Fan 92]

I think all of these guys are locks for the HoF.

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Dwayne Wade
Manu Ginobili
Pau Gasol
Tony Parker
Ray Allen

^^^dis right chea rofl @ da Celtics 2nd all-time leadin scorer being on da bubble in da OP

[celtsfan84]

I sure hope Rip Hamilton ain’t getting in because he has a ring at UConn and with the Pistons.

Rip Hamilton is a good one. Very much on the borderline.

Leading scorer on the 2004 Pistons title team (a rare type of title winner and success story). Lost another NBA Finals in a game seven that went down to the wire. What was it - 6 straight conference finals and 7 straight 50 win seasons? An NCAA title on top of that. That is a pretty impressive resume. 

I could see Rip getting in. Very close though. Could go either way. If Rip did get in, I think he'd have to wait a very long time though.

However, the way his career is finishing up isn't helping. It would be great if he could sort that out and be a good solid starter on a title contender for another 2-3 years.

When guys like Rip get in, it makes it less of an achievement to get in the Hall.  Same with guys like Carter and Ginobili.  If there has to be a debate about a player, I'm against them getting in.

That would make the Hall of Fame a pretty empty place.

Here is the 2012 class - Reggie Miller, Don Nelson, Ralph Sampson, Jamaal Wilkes, Katrina McClain, Hank Nichols, the All American Red Heads, Lidia Alexeeva, Don Barksdale, Mel Daniels, Chet Walker, and Phil Knight.

There was probably a debate about all 12 of those selections.  The most recognizable to NBA fans (Miller, Nelson, Wilkes, and Sampson) are all not first ballot, thus there was a debate for all four.

This method would likely leave the 2012 Hall of Fame class to be zero members, which I would not agree with.

[bdm860]

since it's the basketball HOF I think Melo gets it when you add in his Cuse year

Grant probably gets in with help from his collegiate and international career, as you both had mentioned.

I think you guys are giving wayyyy too much weight to college careers.

CUT FOR SPACE

I think you're misreading the argument.  Despite the injuries, Grant Hill has strong career NBA numbers, AND a great college and international record.  And before the injuries, he was a legitimate top-10 player for several years.  And he's done a ton of work promoting the game and for charity.  And the media love him, which shouldn't matter but does. 

Most of the guys you're mentioning have at most two or three of those factors.  Of all the players listed, the only guys in the same neighborhood as Hill are Webber and Richmond, and arguably Tim Hardaway and Rip.  Which one of them has a better overall resume than Hill?

Résumés are arguable, so we can go all day here, but I'll give it a shot:

Grant Hill
Rookie of the Year
7x All Star
1st Team 1x
2nd Team 4x
2x NCAA Champion
Gold Medal (’96)

Chris Webber
Rookie of the Year
5x All Star
1st team 1x
2nd Team 3x
3rd Team 1x

Mitch Richmond
Rookie of the Year
6x All Star and AS MVP
2nd Team 3x
3rd Team 2x
Gold Medal (’96)
Bronze Medal (’88)

Tim Hardaway
5x All Star
1st team 1x
2nd Team 3x
3rd Team 1x
Gold Medal (’00)

Glen Rice
3x All Star, and AS MVP
2nd Team 1x
3rd Team 1x
1x NBA Champion
1x NCAA Champion
1x NCAA MOP

Penny Hardaway
4x All-Star
1st Team 2x
3rd Team 1x
Gold Medal (’96)

The only place Grant Hill really stands out is All-Star appearances and college rings.

Look at the stats, and tell me he stands out here. Longevity isn't a big factor to me, so I focus more on Per Game Stats, if you focus on totals, Grant Hill is nice for the group I put together, but doesn't stand out.  He may even be the best player in that group, but he's not a tier above any of them. 

And what about playoff stats and performance?

Grant Hill gets by on a good image.

He was a great player, but injuries cost him, but hey injuries cost Penny Hardaway and Webber too.  That's life.

Some of the things to support Grant Hill mentioned in this thread are "solid role player" for the later part of his career and "finished third in league MVP voting" one year.  When these are some of the supporting résumé  items highlighted, I say he shouldn't be in the HOF.