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Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« on: July 08, 2012, 05:40:01 AM »

Offline HowardAvellino

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I want to try to make sense of Celtics fans' reaction to Ray Allen choosing to sign with the Miami Heat. There's a lot of anger, and that anger has been dismissed by some as sour grapes. I think there's a lot more to it than that.

Let's start with Ray's grievances. I think they're all valid, to one extent or another. Danny Ainge certainly did help bring this on:

Ainge would consider Big Three trade

After this caused some furor, he kind of doubled down:

Ainge: "It's obvious" we would trade anyone.

Ainge really seems to not understand loyalty here. Emphasis on "seems to". After this, he did try to walk it back. And some of his other actions, like the Jeff Green situation, do suggest he believes in some kind of loyalty. Also, he's right, it is "obvious" he would trade anyone in the right situation. If somehow the opportunity arises to get Kevin Durant, yeah, you'd trade anyone. But there's no reason to state it the way he did. Maybe he was trying to motivate the team. I don't know.

But apparently he really did mean it, to some extent, since he went ahead and traded Ray Allen two months later:

Celtics agreed to trade Ray Allen

OK, the trade didn't happen. But the fact is, Ainge agreed to trade Ray Allen. And it wasn't a situation where Ainge talks to him, tells him he thinks things aren't working out, find out where Ray would like to go, etc. And it wasn't exactly Durant coming back. It was a pretty ordinary trade, treating Ray like a pretty ordinary player.

I thought Ray deserved better. At the same time, he is an NBA player, and that is part of the job. And, he was not actually traded, of course.

Then there's the idea that he didn't get the ball when he was open. What do I know, but I always wanted the offense to feature Ray more prominently. I'm sure there were times when Ray was open and Rondo didn't get him the ball. That happens.

Of course, there was a good plan to get Ray more shots: run him more with the second unit. I always thought it would be a great fit, and Doc has said he's thought so too. But apparently Ray wouldn't go for it until he absolutely had to. So much for "anything to help the team win".

Ray also complained that he was always the one to sacrifice. I'm not sure what that means. But I'm sure it's true that he wasn't the most highly regarded player on the team. Pierce and Rondo have both played their entire careers with the Cs. KG is a former MVP and was Defensive Player of the Year when the Celtics won the title. Last year, Ray was clearly no better than their 4th best player. If that hurts his feelings, I'm sorry, but that's reality.

If he means, why should he be the one to come off the bench, well, see the previous paragraph. But also see this list of Sixth Man of the Year Winners. In the past eight years, seven of the winners have been shooting guards, and the eighth, Lamar Odom, handled the ball a lot and shot a lot of threes. That's what you need for a sixth man. Ray has had some trouble getting his own shot as he's aged, but he's still the best to fill that role. And even if Pierce would be better in that role, Pierce is the captain.

Ray has also been asked to take less money than the other three.

So, again:
  • being dangled in trades
  • not getting the ball when he's open
  • not being a focal point of the offense
  • not being a starter
  • not being the teams most highly regarded player / captain
  • less money

These are the reasons we've heard, and they're fair complaints.

Here's the problem. This summer, the Celtics offered him a better deal on every single one of the above grievances than the Heat did.

It was widely reported the Celtics were offering a no-trade clause. The Heat could not do that. The Heat have an offense centered around getting out in transition as often as possible, and having LeBron dominate the ball at the top of the key or in the low post in the half court. In Dwyane Wade, the Heat have a starter at Allen's position who is better than him in every conceivable way besides shooting wide-open jumpers, and who is the team captain. The Heat have three guys who are all still in the primes of their careers, who are all making well into 8 figures and demand the ball. And yeah, sorry but they're all better than he is, at this point.

And, to top it all off, the Heat will pay him half what the Celtics would have.

And then, to top it off further, he went to our "hated rival". I actually don't care about this part quite as much as some other Celtics fans do... but it matters. It especially matters since, given the above, it seems like picking the Heat may have been an intentional choice to stick it to the Celtics.

But, maybe Ray just wants to win. Right? That's what this ESPN poll suggests. It asks:

What do you think was Ray Allen's primary reason for choosing the Heat over the Celtics?
  • Deteriorating relationship with Rondo and feeling of unrequited loyalty toward the Celtics
  • It's simple: He thought Miami gave him a better chance to win

Obviously, Miami gives him "a better chance" to win. Miami gives anyone a better chance to win. Miami just won!!! Miami got Juwan Howard a ring. They got Eddy Curry a ring. They even got Eddy Curry a ring. Yes, that deserves to be said twice.

And, of course, Wade is coming back. LeBron is coming back, but much more confident. Bosh is coming back, but healthier. Battier is coming back, and unless Pat Riley doesn't want them to, Chalmers and Haslem and Cole and Anthony are all coming back.

The only guys who played any minutes in the Finals who might not come back are Miller and Jones. But that's far from decided. It certainly sounds like Miller wants to come back, if his body cooperates.

So, Ray Allen is signing on to... umm... replace James Jones? And steal some of the minutes Spoelstra gave, in an act of desperation, to Norris Cole? That's how he's going to get the respect the Celtics didn't show him???

If Ray had gone to a team -- say, the Clippers -- where it seemed he'd be the starting (and finishing) 2 guard, where his veteran, championship experience would be highly valued, and where he could get the other guys over the hump -- preferably for at least the full midlevel exception -- I think anyone could see that. Anyone could see why he'd want that opportunity, and that challenge.

But he can't get Miami over the hump. There is no hump. They just won the title, without him. How are they going to do any better than that? They don't need his leadership, they have eight guys who won an NBA championship more recently than he did. And, again, they don't even have a job for him -- except, possibly, the job he was outraged and wounded and offended when the Celtics nicely asked him to perform it.

And then, one more thing. A rumor, perhaps, but seems to come from reliable sources. Ray apparently would have signed with the Celtics if they offered an even bigger contract. Doesn't this mean all this "pride" stuff goes out the window? If his relationship with the Celtics was irreparably damaged, then, fine. He should have made that clear at the beginning of free agency, and we could have moved on, and then he could have picked among his remaining suitors.

If it wasn't irreparably damaged, but he wanted to be shown the love, on the bottom line, well, fine. The Celtics offered that. Way more money, and a no-trade clause. If he was willing to consider coming back to the Celtics, that should have gotten it done.

But, no. He was willing to come back to the Celtics, but their offer wasn't good enough. A no-trade clause, a better role, an offense more suited to his abilities, the chance to be a crucial part of a very good team, with which he'd played for five years, and to have it end with #20 being raised to the rafters in the most storied arena in the NBA -- plus more money -- wasn't enough to get it done. But, for another $15 million, he would have been in.

So, I think it's easy to understand why the feeling of the fans is, "Good riddance". We feel that way even though, up until two days ago, we really wanted him back. That's not hypocrisy, and it's not sour grapes. It's a realization that the guy we thought we wanted on our team doesn't exist.

http://howardavellino.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/ray-allens-unprecedented-move/

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 08:02:25 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Ainge really seems to not understand loyalty here.

Danny is not paid to be loyal.  That is how you build a team that descends into mediocrity.  He is paid to (1) hang banners in the rafters, and (1a) put an entertaining team on the floor that gets fans to watch the games on TV and in the Garden, while at the same time (2) manage the team's short term and long term finances

I want a GM who is constantly trying to make our team better.  If that takes him/her not being "loyal," so be it

Quote
Ainge agreed to trade Ray Allen.

And looking back on it, that was the right deal to make, correct?  Do any of us believe now that Ray really would have come back for next season if he hadn't been on the trading block this year?  I don't.  We could be sitting here with OJ Mayo and another 1st round pick.  And who knows, maybe Mayo is a difference maker in the playoffs (Ray certainly wasn't).  Instead we have nothing, maybe Nenad Kristic.

Further, after the emergence of Avery Bradley, what do you think Danny was thinking about when Ray went down with the bone spurs injury?  Do you think Danny was happy that trade failed?  No way.

Quote
These are the reasons we've heard, and they're fair complaints
 

They are also great reasons to trade a guy.

I will defend Danny in the Ray Allen situation.  I know people were upset at how Danny shoveled off Perkins, and that's fair.  If we don't get any value back for that deal (Jeff Green being mediocre, Fab Melo sucks, Kristic not coming back) then Danny should be criticized.  But the Allen situation is totally different.  Ray had clear problems with our franchise PG, was not helpful when Doc asked him to come off the bench, and is certainly coming off as a person more temperamental than any of us thought he was.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 08:56:07 AM »

Offline eugen

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Is only Ray's fault?!

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 09:44:29 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan06

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Done with this I think people are moving on.  I actually don't think Ray was wanted back so much this offseason.  I think part of Danny's desire to bring him back was to keep him away from the Heat.

I also think had he got to the Clippers before Jamal Crawford he'd have gone there for a starting job and more money.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 09:53:42 AM »

Offline relja

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Oh come, that loyalty thing is getting old.. If we were loyal to everyone, Robert Parish would still be playing.

Be real, this is a sports league where the first thing is winning and loyalty is dead last.

Would you not rather have a first round pick and a young, athletic SG with a cool beard than a mediocre, 37-yo SG with bone spurs..

I mean, take the name off the stats and you'll see how bad he was.. Ray Allen is maybe the best SG of all time but everyone has a decline at the end of their career.. He's not the same Ray he was in 08.
When you lose, the easy part is to see who gives up. Giving up is very simple. You basically take your stuff and walk away. To continue to work and to continue to compete is one of the most difficult things, especially when you really don't have anything - KG

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 09:54:50 AM »

Offline 2dark

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Everyone loves to say that Ray going to MIA is like your ex going out with guy you hate.
Similarely then you can't say that Danny was right to trade him, cause it would be like your gf) telling you she cheated you with (with some Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.bag), and then she said she really might not have. After you dump her for it she says "See I should have cheat on you".

Ray is simply not fit to play on C's anymore. Fans felt it, he felt it and it is what it is. Instead of riding in the sunset with best contract and little playing time, he decided to take less money and try to prove once again that he still got game.

MIA fits perfectly and thats it.

And just one more thing, this is getting tiresome... Thanks for the 5 yrs and a title and a batload of clutch shots Ray, you re not Celtic anymore and I don't care that much about you now.

For people calling him butthurt about trade rumors, Rondo etc, take your own advice and stop being butthurt over him leaving and move on already.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 09:16:08 PM »

Offline HowardAvellino

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Ainge really seems to not understand loyalty here.

Danny is not paid to be loyal. That is how you build a team that descends into mediocrity.  He is paid to (1) hang banners in the rafters, and (1a) put an entertaining team on the floor that gets fans to watch the games on TV and in the Garden, while at the same time (2) manage the team's short term and long term finances

That's true, but I would argue that treating your best employees well is a big part of all of those goals.

What if Danny were presented with a three-way trade last year: we get Dwight Howard, Pierce goes to Charlotte, and we send both 2012 first round draft picks to Orlando (and obviously Charlotte sends a bunch of stuff to Orlando as well).  Let's say Howard caught wind of the rumors and stated unequivocally he didn't want to play here and would leave as a free agent after the season.

But Danny felt certain that the trade would improve our chances in the 2012 playoffs.  Should he have done it?  I would say "no".  It's not just about winning the most games.  It's about running an organization where the best players want to play, to ultimately win championships.

Loyalty only goes so far.  If the offer was Pierce for Durant, and Durant expressed enthusiasm about playing the rest of his career here, then yeah, you'd have to do it.  You still should talk to Pierce first, give him a heads up, etc.  Maybe don't call it "loyalty".  How about "decency"?

Quote
I want a GM who is constantly trying to make our team better.  If that takes him/her not being "loyal," so be it

Fair enough.  And?  Did it work?  Did dangling Ray Allen in a trade, without consummating the trade, make the team better?

I believe there are ways to investigate making the team better without disrespecting the players involved.  Part of it is not making statements like DA made in January.  How did that possibly help?

Quote
Quote
Ainge agreed to trade Ray Allen.

And looking back on it, that was the right deal to make, correct?  Do any of us believe now that Ray really would have come back for next season if he hadn't been on the trading block this year?  I don't.

Obviously I can't say for sure, but yes, I do believe exactly that.  If Danny never made the statements about how he'd trade anyone, and if Memphis leaked a rumor about offering Mayo & a 1st for Ray, and Danny came out and said, "Ray Allen is worth so much more to this team than that", then yes, I think Ray would have chosen Boston's offer over Miami's.

As for whether it was the right trade to make, I'm not so sure.  Mayo is looking for tons of money, that I'm not sure we would have paid him.  So it might have been just a 3-month rental.  And it might have meant, because we had Mayo, we never gave Bradley a good enough look, and he stayed glued to the bench all season.  It's hard to say.

Personally, I don't think much of Mayo.  I'd definitely prefer a Bradley/Lee tandem to Mayo.  I might prefer a Bradley/Moore tandem, plus $4 million/year.

Quote
We could be sitting here with OJ Mayo and another 1st round pick.  And who knows, maybe Mayo is a difference maker in the playoffs (Ray certainly wasn't).  Instead we have nothing, maybe Nenad Kristic.

But this reinforces the point about loyalty.  Because in the NBA, loyalty isn't just about loving each other.  Because of the CBA, teams and players alike are "punished" for not being loyal.  In the end, from the CBA perspective, Danny did offer loyalty: $6 million a year for a 37 year old is pretty good.  But he didn't couple that loyalty with a simple human loyalty, and that may have cost the team.

Quote
Further, after the emergence of Avery Bradley, what do you think Danny was thinking about when Ray went down with the bone spurs injury?  Do you think Danny was happy that trade failed?  No way.

I'm not sure what you mean.  I think the exact opposite: it was Ray's injury which gave Bradley a chance to shine.  If Mayo was here, we never would have known what we had.  Obviously not the way anyone would have planned things, but I think it worked out.

I think with the emergence of Bradley, with Terry coming aboard, and with Mayo thinking he's a point guard, and apparently wanting $10m/year, I know I am happy that trade never happened.

Quote
Quote
These are the reasons we've heard, and they're fair complaints
 

They are also great reasons to trade a guy.

I will defend Danny in the Ray Allen situation.  I know people were upset at how Danny shoveled off Perkins, and that's fair.  If we don't get any value back for that deal (Jeff Green being mediocre, Fab Melo sucks, Kristic not coming back) then Danny should be criticized.  But the Allen situation is totally different.  Ray had clear problems with our franchise PG, was not helpful when Doc asked him to come off the bench, and is certainly coming off as a person more temperamental than any of us thought he was.

I'm not trying to absolve Ray of responsibility.  But Ray is who he is; how did any of Danny's actions do anything to make things better?

It sounds like you think we shouldn't have offered Ray the 2yrs/$12 million.  But Danny did offer it.  Danny wanted him back.  But Danny didn't get him back, because of how he treated him earlier.  I hope he learns from it.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 09:38:59 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Ray's move was based on self-interest. Is that surprising? A human being basing a decision on self-interest --  what could be more human?   People make decisions based on self-interest all the time -- that is understandable.  But also understandable is the response that occurs when someone's decision impacts someone else's self-interest.  The C's are hurt by his decision (though maybe not all that much) and the rival is helped. As fans, our self-interest is impacted by his decision.  Bottom line is that Ray has a right to make a decision based on self-interest, and the fans have the right to be mad about it.

Ray Allen took less money (at least 2 years of 1/2 the money) in order to join the conference rival who had beaten his current team in each of the previous 2 playoffs.   But the unprecedented component is this:    He left a CONTENDER to join the rival contender and he left for less money.

Name any player in any sport who has taken 1/2 the cash to play for the rival team (the team they were just barely beaten by) when his curent team is still very  much a viable contender.   

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 09:43:30 PM »

Offline HowardAvellino

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Ray's move was based on self-interest. Is that surprising? A human being basing a decision on self-interest --  what could be more human?   People make decisions based on self-interest all the time -- that is understandable.  But also understandable is the response that occurs when someone's decision impacts someone else's self-interest.  The C's are hurt by his decision (though maybe not all that much) and the rival is helped. As fans, our self-interest is impacted by his decision.  Bottom line is that Ray has a right to make a decision based on self-interest, and the fans have the right to be mad about it.

Ray Allen took less money (at least 2 years of 1/2 the money) in order to join the conference rival who had beaten his current team in each of the previous 2 playoffs.   But the unprecedented component is this:    He left a CONTENDER to join the rival contender and he left for less money.

Name any player in any sport who has taken 1/2 the cash to play for the rival team (the team they were just barely beaten by) when his curent team is still very  much a viable contender.   

Maybe Mike Bibby, going from Atlanta to Miami a couple of seasons ago?

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 09:44:15 PM »

Offline Wiggin6

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hello and welcome

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 09:46:03 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I love what Neurotic Guy said and I also challenge ANYONE to find one such instance:

Name any player in any sport who has taken 1/2 the cash to play for the rival team (the team they were just barely beaten by) when his curent team is still very  much a viable contender.   

Well said NG!!

Smitty77

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 09:47:00 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I do NOT remember Atlanta offering him twice the money.  PLEASE refresh my memory!!!

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 09:52:57 PM »

Offline HowardAvellino

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I do NOT remember Atlanta offering him twice the money.  PLEASE refresh my memory!!!

Mike Bibby had a six-million dollar per year contract... WITH A YEAR REMAINING... and took a buyout to go sign for Miami as a minimum-salary player.  I don't know how much the buyout was (that sort of info is rarely published), but I think it's pretty clear he gave up at least half the money which he would have received otherwise.

It's hard to find examples which match your criteria exactly, but there are lots of examples of players taking less money to go to a team they think has a better chance of winning, even though the team they were on has a good chance, too.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 09:55:13 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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being dangled in trades
not getting the ball when he's open
not being a focal point of the offense
not being a starter
not being the teams most highly regarded player / captain
less money

1)he missed a lot of open three's the past year, in fact he seems to be hitting the contested ones more.
2)he has no post move, turnover prone when he puts the ball on the floor, cannot free himself through screens as good as before
3)he is what 37? we played better with bradley starting yet he still wanted to start?
4)pierce has been a celtic for life, kg changed our D, our culture
5)he is the oldest, least vital member of the big three, understandable that he gets the lowest pay among them. besides you cant use money as an argument when he left to a team offering him less.

I don't see how anyone can still defend ray on this. Im not mad, nor devastated, in fact im glad he is gone.

Re: Ray Allen's Unprecedented Move
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 09:56:06 PM »

Offline j804

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Ray's move was based on self-interest. Is that surprising? A human being basing a decision on self-interest --  what could be more human?   People make decisions based on self-interest all the time -- that is understandable.  But also understandable is the response that occurs when someone's decision impacts someone else's self-interest.  The C's are hurt by his decision (though maybe not all that much) and the rival is helped. As fans, our self-interest is impacted by his decision.  Bottom line is that Ray has a right to make a decision based on self-interest, and the fans have the right to be mad about it.

Ray Allen took less money (at least 2 years of 1/2 the money) in order to join the conference rival who had beaten his current team in each of the previous 2 playoffs.   But the unprecedented component is this:    He left a CONTENDER to join the rival contender and he left for less money.

Name any player in any sport who has taken 1/2 the cash to play for the rival team (the team they were just barely beaten by) when his curent team is still very  much a viable contender.   
Nobody out there and as for Bibby the Heat weren't a rival to Atlanta
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