Ray is gone (wanted 3 year 27 million)

[Who]

I am interested to see how Miami use Ray Allen.

I don't understand how it's in their best interests to give him a larger role than as a floor spacer. Their small-ball lineup also limits the number of screens he can run off of.

How many touches does he get, how many shot-attempts, how many minutes, what type of lineups do Miami use him in ... lots of questions. Interested to see how that plays out for Ray.

I'd only expect Ray to have a small impact and upgrade for Miami but if they can get him into a larger role successfully, maybe he can be a bigger addition for them.

[hpantazo]

I think Miami should have spent their money on a big man, they didn't need another spot up shooter.

[Surferdad]

As much as I love (and respect) what Ray has done here over the last 5 years, I have to agree that this really is a bit of ****e move. 

Also the more I think about it, the more I think we may be better off. 

Why?

1. Deal
First of all, Allen asking for 9M/Year is ludicrous.  He clearly is not worth anywhere near that money at his age, at this point in his career, and coming off an injury. 

Unless you are a talented big man, to get that type of money you need to be a versatile enough to play multiple positions and / or produce in multiple areas.  As a pure shooting guard who only real skill is shooting, Ray offers neither of the above. 

Either he dramatically overestimates his own balue, or he he threw this figure out intentionally knowing that Boston would never match it, purely to waste their time. Then he threw in the no-trade demand just to add insult to injury. 

The latter was all but confirmed by the fact that he signed for Miami for 1/3 of that yearly salary...without a trade clause.
 

2. Fit in Boston
I was daydreaming the other day about the possibility of a Terry/Allen/Green second unit, with each of those guys having the potential to score 20 points on any given night.  For a Boston team that has never had depth, the possibility was very intriguing!

Then I started to think about it...who on that second unit will actually play defense? 

Terry is hardly a lock down defender, and he's undersized at 6'2".   At this point in his career, Allen is really a bit of a defensive liability.  Green will have his hands full with bigger SF's like Carmello and Lebron. 

Larger and more dominant backcourt scorers guys like Wade, Kobe, Mayo and J Johnson will score at will if they come up against this lineup.   

The Celtics are actually probably more ballanced with Terry/Pietrus/Green out there on the perimeter. Each of those three guys can knock down the outside shot (making up somewhat for the loss of Allen), but Pietrus has the strength and agility to defend any SG/SF in the league...and that allows Terry and Green to focus primarilly on offense.

This also ensures that Terry and Green will get enough minutes (probably close to 30 a game) to be really effective.  Bringing Allen back would have probably forced them to play him some time either at PG or at SF just to get him the minutes he needs to be content, and that would have taken minutes away from Terry and Green.  Pietrus will be much more willing to accept reduced minutes for the better of the team.

Also we don't want a Celtic who doesn't WANT to be a Celtic.  Terry, Pietrus and Green are all very passionate about playing on Boston, and a passionate employee almost always amounts to a more productive employee.


3. Impact in Miami
I actually think Ray Allen's potential impact in Miami is grossly overrated.

Yes Ray Allen is one year older, and yes he's just coming off a surgery to remove bone spurs in his ankle...but that's not my reason.  People seem to forget that the main reason Ray has managed to maintain his efficiency is because Boston surrounds him with the perfect system. 

Having multiple staggered screens (starting with one of the best screen setters in KG) gets Ray the space he needs, and then he has arguably the best passer in the league (Rondo) delivering him the ball right where/when he wants it.  So many of those shots he gets would have been a non-attempt it the pass was a split second later or off position.

Despite the above, Ray was a step slower and has struggled to get enough separation to get shots off lately.  Maybe that's due to the bone spurs, but maybe he's just not as quick anymore.  Now he's in Miami and doesn't have those resources, and it's most likely that his shooting efficiency will drop significantly.


4. Value
To me, the big way to decide a player's value is how replacable they are.  This usually is determined by a combination of their versatility, versus how much they demand from the team.

Example 1 - Marquis Daniels:
* Can play and defend three positions (PG, SG and SF)

* Has a varied skillset (good passer, solid rebounder, rarely turns the ball over, can score when asked)

* Has good intangbles (experience, hustle, toughness, professionalism, loyalty and gets along with other players)

* Demands only a 'veteran min' contract and a roster spot.  He considers any playing time a bonus. 

That to me that is a very high value player - hard to replace because its very hard to find a guy who will offer that skill set in return for similar or fewer demands.   

Example 2 - Ray Allen:
* Can play one position (SG)

* Has one key skill (Shooting)

* Has some intangibles (experience, professionalism, clutch scoring)

* Demands a large salary an a starting role or starter-like minutes 

This makes Ray Allen (in my eyes) a very low value player - very easilly replaced because there are many players out there who could offer this skill set in return for similar or fewer demands.

So honestly, the more I think about it the more I like this..as long as Pietrus comes back.  They dont need  him to be a scorng machine, they just ned consitently good defense and the ability to hit the odd big shot (he can do both).

Well stated and welcome to CelticsBlog!

I am convinced Ainge took a lot of this into consideration especially the value part. That would be only way to explain the earlier trade rumors involving Ray.  So I am also convinced that Ainge is not a bit surprised and perhaps even expected this.

[Who]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

[BringToughnessBack]

Point 1- Ray is now dead to me

Point 2- Varitek = Pierce
         Ortiz = KG
         Damon = Ray

Point 3- Double team Lebron, cover Wade and Bosh and now option 4 is Ray....sickening to me. Those are 4 of the best offensive options a team could ask for-All they need now is Kaman to sign for minimum

Point 4- Be careful walking on that sand Ray..would hate for you to re-injure that ankle- NOT!

Point 5- If my company tried to trade me to bum f!*! Idaho to work for another company who is about 1 percent as competent as current company, I would be p---ed beyond belief and would not stay with my company for very long- Hard to fault Ray for leaving but see Point 1 anyway

Point 6- Did you ever work closely with someone you hated beyond belief. Someone that made your skin crawl. What if that someone was going to be at your company for a long time and you were still going to need to work with that person. Well, Rondo was that person to Ray it seems. No matter how much of a professional we wanted Ray to be, working with a nuisance is never fun. Oh..see point 1 again too

[Eddie20]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

That means Allen really wanted to go, but if you're going to pay him a lot more money then he'll stay. If his heart isn't going to be in it, then I'd rather he's gone. How long before he would have dissension for Bradley (taking his spot) or Terry (if he were to get more looks, touches, etc.)? It stings, but it's probably for the best. Addition by subtraction of sorts. Shame we couldn't get Mayo! That probably is what hurts the most.

[crimson_stallion]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

Jason Kidd was a triple double machine, and a guy who could can beat you in any of 4 possible ways:
- Shooting
- Rebounding
- Passing/Playmaking
- Ball handling
- Defense
- Big / strong enough to guard both guard positions

On top of this he is the kind of player who made everbody he played with better - very much like Rajon Rondo, only bigger and with a more accurate three point shot.

That is no comparison to a SG who is:
- Exceptonal three point shooter
- Average rebounder
- Average passer
- Average ball handler
- Average (if that) defender
- Too slow to guard PGs, to weak to guard SFs and struggles at times to guard his own position

With all due respect, the comparison is apples and oranges.

[elcotte]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

He signed for 3yrs and $9.7M....I think he was being very unreasonable. I also think he is unreasonable if he feels playing behind AB is a slight. He's not 27 he's 37. He's playing is own little head games on himself.

[BballTim]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

  It's not the dollar amount per se, it's telling your current team that if they want to retain your services they have to pay you much more money than you'll be able to get anywhere else. It's one thing to ask for 3/27 and sign for 3/24 or 4/30 or something, it's different if you sign for 3/9.

[crimson_stallion]

Point 5- If my company tried to trade me to bum f!*! Idaho to work for another company who is about 1 percent as competent as current company, I would be p---ed beyond belief and would not stay with my company for very long- Hard to fault Ray for leaving but see Point 1 anyway

The trade was this season, at the trade deadline. Memphis got pretty deep in the playoffs last year, and Boston were terrible up until the trade deadline.  

If anything he Grizzlies were considered by most people to be a better team then the Celtics at that time and were considered likely to go deep in the playoffs - most people predicted the Celtics would barely MAKE the playoffs.

It's not like they were trading him to the Bobcats...

Point 6- Did you ever work closely with someone you hated beyond belief. Someone that made your skin crawl. What if that someone was going to be at your company for a long time and you were still going to need to work with that person. Well, Rondo was that person to Ray it seems. No matter how much of a professional we wanted Ray to be, working with a nuisance is never fun. Oh..see point 1 again too

The reports I've read said that Rondo wasn't the only person that had trouble with Ray - apparently he'd had his share of issues with KG as well.  I read that Ray used to interupt KG during his pre-game preparations, which (given KG's level of focus) apparently caused Garnett to lash out at him at least once.

I read that Ray was very particular about how he liked things, and that he used to rub people the wrong way.

Of course none of us know the reality of it, but it's entirely possible that it's Ray who was the locker room problem, and not Rondo.

Besides if Ray and Rondo didn't get along right now and you had to let one of them go, who would you let go?  The top 5 PG with the bright future and potentially to become one of the NBA's all time assist leaders, or the 37 year old guy who only has 2 years left in him, and doesn't really do much other then shoot three's at a high level?

I know who I'd choose, and it's not the shooter!

[Snakehead]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

  It's not the dollar amount per se, it's telling your current team that if they want to retain your services they have to pay you much more money than you'll be able to get anywhere else. It's one thing to ask for 3/27 and sign for 3/24 or 4/30 or something, it's different if you sign for 3/9.

Exactly, what you're saying Who makes zero sense because he just signed for 3 mill per.

[ManUp]

Big Three Era officially over it was fun while it lasted. Thanks for the years and the big shots Ray. Time to move on.

[wdleehi]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

Different rules in play then.


That contract could have put the Celtics over the full MLE threshold. 

[Who]

The three years $27 million ...

Pretty much the same contract Jason Kidd signed for Dallas three years ago (three years, $25 million). Similar stage of their careers (Ray a year older). Similar level of effectiveness (above average starter). That contract turned out to be a great bit of business for Dallas.

I don't think Ray was being unreasonable with his contract demands.

  It's not the dollar amount per se, it's telling your current team that if they want to retain your services they have to pay you much more money than you'll be able to get anywhere else. It's one thing to ask for 3/27 and sign for 3/24 or 4/30 or something, it's different if you sign for 3/9.

Exactly, what you're saying Who makes zero sense because he just signed for 3 mill per.

I think Ray Allen was worth somewhere near that figure. He asked for what he felt he was worth (3 years, $27 million) and Danny came back and offered less than half the value of that contract (2 years, $12 million).

That matters too.

I think Danny slighted Ray Allen with his contract offer / response.

[alley oop]

..