Why Are We Assuming that Ray Allen Won't Start?

[rayallen1934]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.
 

Teague was eating him alive also

[Brendan]

I don't. All the arguments for AB starting and Ray Allen coming off the bench, work just as well with Green starting and Pierce coming off the bench. With the exception that it makes the rotation easier to manage.

That being said, Ray and Pierce probably both start, because AB is out to start the year.

Update:

Backcourt of Rondo + AB versus some of the backcourts out there can be outsized pretty easily.

[CelticsFanNC]

If Ray Allen is coming back as a starter, I want to resign him even less. I can't stress enough how refresing it was to see another player getting out on the break with Rondo. That infusion of young legs really helped spark us in the second half (along with KG's move to the 5). I don't think its a coincidence that Rondo had the most consistently high level stretch of his career sharing the backcourt with AB.

  +1 Agreed.  The Celtics looked old and slow when they were starting the Big Four and the corpse of JO.  They didn't get into the open court often.   They didn't get to lose balls.  They were a step slow.  

  Bradley's ball pressure took Rondo off the ball and made our team defense better and gave Rondo more energy to push the ball at every opportunity.  Stops led to open court and early offensive opportunities.   Getting out in front of Rondo made the Celtics a better team and Rondo a consistently good to great player night in and night out.

  The team was clearly better IMO with a back court of Bradley and Rondo.  It's not a shot at Ray Allen.  He's 37 years old.  He can still shoot but rock but the rest of his game has deteriorated some.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I see someone has already said it, I wasn't at first but let me just echo it... Doc has said before MANY times that they wanted to bring Ray off the bench the past two seasons. He in fact said he discussed starting Pietrus but he got hurt. Before that he said he thought about starting JG. They have talked about Ray coming off the bench b/c he can help with the scoring and because of how we could start better defensively to take pressure off RR. I can remember when AB first started, how RR was going overboard and praising the difference with AB starting (I think those things have to do with the rumored rift between he and Ray)... I was shocked at how candid RR was being, I even said so when I heard him say the stuff on here. Sure Ray may be the starter but it may be because of ego and Doc not wanting to mess with chemistry, he could blame last season on Ray being injured so it wasn't bad but think if Ray is fully healthy. It's not like we are trying to force Ray to the bench because he is bad but it's not only us thinking we would be better served with him coming off the bench because it helps the TEAM! Yes, Ray played great at the start of the season and PP didn't but even when PP got it together and Ray was starting (still playing well) we still SUCKED!! Maybe AB isn't the long term answer but someone besides Ray may be!  

[BballTim]

I am one that would love Bradley to start


but blaming ray and comparing sample sizes is a discredit to Ray Allen


The Celtics were barely playing the 1st half of the season



Rondo sucked

Pierce SUCKED BAD

and Garnett wasn't playing over his head


all the while Ray Allen, a healthy one was keeping them in games



But that goes over the head of every fan. Bradley was averaging like 4 points a game in the Atlant/Sixers series. His cuts were being totally stopped and his shot was way off, and he wasn't playing that great of defense.


People look at that stat of efficiency and really take it to another level.

  PP and KG were terrible for the first half of the season. Ray was hitting his threes at a great rate but Rondo was our best player at the time. Also, when you're talking about Bradley in the playoffs it's hard to ignore the fact that he was having serious shoulder problems.

[wasi]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.
 

Teague was eating him alive also

Teague did eat him alive but that has nothing to do with the size debate does it?

As far as I remember Avery did a decent job on him. Joe settled for a lot of tough jumpers, to me that's good defense. He also got stuffed pretty bad at the end of a quarter in the playoffs. I watched all the games last year and all I know is that he played larger players very well. Joe Johnson is about as big as it gets height and strength wise for a SG in the NBA. In my opinion he held his own. He in no way stopped or shut him down but he wasn't abused.

I understand that typically someone that small cannot be a starting SG but from what I saw it didn't matter much. I would like to hear other opinions but I think he did well guarding size last year. Not all the time but most of the time. He'll add muscle and then they wont be able to back him down as easily either.

[rayallen1934]

I am one that would love Bradley to start


but blaming ray and comparing sample sizes is a discredit to Ray Allen


The Celtics were barely playing the 1st half of the season


And  Ray was hurt too, but nobody wanted to give him any break when he was shooting brick after brick in the playoffs.

Excuses for the golden child but not Ray? nah, can't let that slide
Rondo sucked

Pierce SUCKED BAD

and Garnett wasn't playing over his head


all the while Ray Allen, a healthy one was keeping them in games



But that goes over the head of every fan. Bradley was averaging like 4 points a game in the Atlant/Sixers series. His cuts were being totally stopped and his shot was way off, and he wasn't playing that great of defense.


People look at that stat of efficiency and really take it to another level.

  PP and KG were terrible for the first half of the season. Ray was hitting his threes at a great rate but Rondo was our best player at the time. Also, when you're talking about Bradley in the playoffs it's hard to ignore the fact that he was having serious shoulder problems.

[rayallen1934]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.
 

Teague was eating him alive also

Teague did eat him alive but that has nothing to do with the size debate does it?

As far as I remember Avery did a decent job on him. Joe settled for a lot of tough jumpers, to me that's good defense. He also got stuffed pretty bad at the end of a quarter in the playoffs. I watched all the games last year and all I know is that he played larger players very well. Joe Johnson is about as big as it gets height and strength wise for a SG in the NBA. In my opinion he held his own. He in no way stopped or shut him down but he wasn't abused.

I understand that typically someone that small cannot be a starting SG but from what I saw it didn't matter much. I would like to hear other opinions but I think he did well guarding size last year. Not all the time but most of the time. He'll add muscle and then they wont be able to back him down as easily either.

Teague was destroying somebody, and it was either Rondo or Bradley, and i do remember Bradley playing him a lot


im not trying to knock Bradley, just fait criticism...Bradley still won games in that series with his blocks.

[BballTim]

I am one that would love Bradley to start


but blaming ray and comparing sample sizes is a discredit to Ray Allen


The Celtics were barely playing the 1st half of the season


And  Ray was hurt too, but nobody wanted to give him any break when he was shooting brick after brick in the playoffs.

Excuses for the golden child but not Ray? nah, can't let that slide
Rondo sucked

Pierce SUCKED BAD

and Garnett wasn't playing over his head


all the while Ray Allen, a healthy one was keeping them in games



But that goes over the head of every fan. Bradley was averaging like 4 points a game in the Atlant/Sixers series. His cuts were being totally stopped and his shot was way off, and he wasn't playing that great of defense.


People look at that stat of efficiency and really take it to another level.

  PP and KG were terrible for the first half of the season. Ray was hitting his threes at a great rate but Rondo was our best player at the time. Also, when you're talking about Bradley in the playoffs it's hard to ignore the fact that he was having serious shoulder problems.

  I thought most people were aware Ray was playing on bad ankles during the playoffs and it had a significant impact on his shooting.

[wasi]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.
 

Teague was eating him alive also

Teague did eat him alive but that has nothing to do with the size debate does it?

As far as I remember Avery did a decent job on him. Joe settled for a lot of tough jumpers, to me that's good defense. He also got stuffed pretty bad at the end of a quarter in the playoffs. I watched all the games last year and all I know is that he played larger players very well. Joe Johnson is about as big as it gets height and strength wise for a SG in the NBA. In my opinion he held his own. He in no way stopped or shut him down but he wasn't abused.

I understand that typically someone that small cannot be a starting SG but from what I saw it didn't matter much. I would like to hear other opinions but I think he did well guarding size last year. Not all the time but most of the time. He'll add muscle and then they wont be able to back him down as easily either.

Teague was destroying somebody, and it was either Rondo or Bradley, and i do remember Bradley playing him a lot


im not trying to knock Bradley, just fait criticism...Bradley still won games in that series with his blocks.

Yeah Bradley is so fast that he thinks he can get away with overplaying guys sometimes and going for steals. When he does that with the quicker guys they kill him and get by him. To me that's something he will learn from but I do recall being very upset with his defense on Teague.

[ItStaysYang]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.
 

Yes... both of his shoulders were routinely popping out and he was still on the court.....

[Vermont Green]

Was this topic merely created for trolling purposes?

Remember this season before RA's ankles bothered him and he was slow to come off screens, not hitting 3's, and we started doing amazing when Bradley took over at the 2?

Do you not remember the stifling on-ball defense that Bradley plays or the offensive game he started developing when he started?

If I recall correctly, our chances of beating the heat were sorely diminished when we lost our STARTING SHOOTING GUARD

Edit: We need more scoring from our 2nd unit..... what about having Ray Allen on the bench doesn't yield that? The best 3 point shooter of all time going against other team's bench SG's? Sounds like points to me. Ray can still play in crunch time.....

No, it was created to spark a debate and discussion.



It is a good question.  

Bradley starting last year was a good shot in the arm last year.  


Ray had been great as a starter for many years.  


Both are important to this team and both will see minutes.  

The OP Troll checking back in.  Glad to see the debate.  My conclusion is that many seem to feel that Bradley SHOULD start over Allen, but there really isn't any reason act as if you know or it is for sure. It is understandable to feel that way although I don't agree.  I may change my mind when I see them both on the court next year though.

My primary reason for asking this was as it might relate to Ray's decision. It is clearly not so certain that Ray would sign somewhere else just because he knows he won't start for the Celtics.  I don't see how anyone could debate that (but I am sure there will be some opposing views).

[Lightskinsmurf]

Because starting ray over AB at this point would be nothing short of STUPID. Our bench needs more scoring and our starting lineup could always use more defense. Rondo needs somebody to run with. This makes far too much sense and starting ray over AB makes no sense at all.

[BballTim]

  My conclusion is that many seem to feel that Bradley SHOULD start over Allen, but there really isn't any reason act as if you know or it is for sure.

  Nobody knows who will start, but people are guessing who should. Bradley's better on defense, Ray's better on offense. But for me the important factor is that Bradley being much more athletic than Ray makes a big difference to the team. With all three of RA/KG/PP in the game for long stretches we're just too old IMO. With 3 younger players, two of them very fast, we're young enough to keep up with other teams and still get maximum benefit from the older players.
 

[Swoopz]

Against larger 2s like Joe Johnson and Kobe I'd prefer to start Ray and against smaller, quicker guys, such as Westbrook and Rose, Bradley should start to conserve Rondo's energy. However, I think Ray will get the start for most of the season and that would be fine by me.