Why Are We Assuming that Ray Allen Won't Start?

[Celtics18]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice. 

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.   

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back). 

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

Wow! I agree.

Lol JK.  You're still my secondary nemesis after BBallTim.  All is still right in the world of Celticsblog.   

Nice one.  Here's a Tommy point for making me laugh. 

[ItStaysYang]

Was this topic merely created for trolling purposes?

Remember this season before RA's ankles bothered him and he was slow to come off screens, not hitting 3's, and we started doing amazing when Bradley took over at the 2?

Do you not remember the stifling on-ball defense that Bradley plays or the offensive game he started developing when he started?

If I recall correctly, our chances of beating the heat were sorely diminished when we lost our STARTING SHOOTING GUARD

Edit: We need more scoring from our 2nd unit..... what about having Ray Allen on the bench doesn't yield that? The best 3 point shooter of all time going against other team's bench SG's? Sounds like points to me. Ray can still play in crunch time.....

[kp4000]

Was this topic merely created for trolling purposes?

Remember this season before RA's ankles bothered him and he was slow to come off screens, not hitting 3's, and we started doing amazing when Bradley took over at the 2?

Do you not remember the stifling on-ball defense that Bradley plays or the offensive game he started developing when he started?

If I recall correctly, our chances of beating the heat were sorely diminished when we lost our STARTING SHOOTING GUARD

Edit: We need more scoring from our 2nd unit..... what about having Ray Allen on the bench doesn't yield that? The best 3 point shooter of all time going against other team's bench SG's? Sounds like points to me. Ray can still play in crunch time.....

But the Celtics were up 3-2 without Bradley, or Green, JO, Wilcox.

[Professor of Rondology]

I don't think anyone is saying that Avery Bradley is a better basketball player than Ray Allen. We shouldn't even bother having  that conversation since they have such different games and are at such different points in their career.
To me, it is pretty obvious that Ray should come off the bench.  Our starting lineup has plenty of offensive firepower with the Rajon Rondo show + PP + KG, and our bench was in desperate need of someone who could put the ball in the basket. When AB was starting we came out of the gates with more energy.  How is Rondo supposed to run the floor and take control of the game from the onset if he's stuck out there with a starting line-up designed to play at a painfully slow tempo? Rondo cannot take the next step and become the leader of this team if Doc won't let him, and I think that injecting Bradley (or Jeff Green) into the starting lineup is an important step in the process of him taking the reigns.

[Professor of Rondology]

Was this topic merely created for trolling purposes?

Remember this season before RA's ankles bothered him and he was slow to come off screens, not hitting 3's, and we started doing amazing when Bradley took over at the 2?

Do you not remember the stifling on-ball defense that Bradley plays or the offensive game he started developing when he started?

If I recall correctly, our chances of beating the heat were sorely diminished when we lost our STARTING SHOOTING GUARD

Edit: We need more scoring from our 2nd unit..... what about having Ray Allen on the bench doesn't yield that? The best 3 point shooter of all time going against other team's bench SG's? Sounds like points to me. Ray can still play in crunch time.....

I agree wholeheartedly with this post.

[cman88]

Bradley starting and ray coming off the bench just makes too much sense for several purposes.

1. bradley is a tenacious defender, allows rondo to gamble more and limit guard penetration.

2. The ball moves more free as they arent looking to get ray involved off screens right away.

3.when KG checks out, Ray checks in...you always have 2 of the big 3 on the court at all times.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Guess what...WHY would doc do anything different then this year...play the big 3 to death, rondo, steamer or wilcox...then bradley.....all the other rookies and even non- rookies sit forever...unless we are ahead by 30 with 3 minutes left..then they get to play, and learn the system..becasue they don't practice......sooooo, here we go again.......

[mctyson]

I keep seeing posts that are based unequivically on the assumption that Avery Bradley will be the starter and that Ray will come off the bench.  Things like "he may go here or there because he can start" or "Ray won't come back because he wants to be a starter".

The only time Ray didn't start was when he was hurt and when he was being eased back in to full minutes.  Does anyone actually have any statements from Doc that would confirm that Bradley is the starter going into next year?  Are people just making a prediction that Bradley will beat out Ray?

For the record, I think if Ray is recovered, he should and will start.  Bradley will be perfect as a bench combo gaurd.

Because when Ray was hurt and AB started, we had the best record int the NBA.

[nickagneta]

“We like it,’’ coach Doc Rivers said before the game about using Allen as a sixth man. “I was trying to tell you, we’ve only talked about this for two years as a staff but we’ve never had anyone to step forward. We’ve always wanted a stronger bench. At least in the last year and a half, we’ve talked about it. And now with Avery [Bradley] and, hopefully, if we can get Mickael [Pietrus] back, it’s phenomenal. You have either guy you can play and use the other guy off the bench. That would be the best-case scenario for us.’’

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/04/09/ray_allen_comes_off_the_bench_again_for_celtics/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Boston+Celtics+news

Quote from Doc. The staff has been talking of bringing Ray off the bench for two years. They now have someone that can step forward and produce. And when looking at if Bradley can produce with the starters take a look at this:

Because if you look at the numbers, the unit featuring Avery Bradley instead of Ray Allen has been much, much better. Like, coconuts better.

Lineup analysis is mostly based on the Offensive and Defensive Efficiency, or how many points the team scores or allows per 100 possessions when that lineup’s in the game. Here are those figures, first for the Rondo-Allen-Pierce-Bass-Garnett lineup, then the Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass-Garnett lineup (via BasketballValue).

Ray’s lineup (269 minutes): 103.89 offensive efficiency, 101.78 defensive efficiency
Avery’s lineup (78 minutes): 114.57 offensive efficiency, 89.86 defensive efficiency

That gives Ray’s lineup a differential of 2.11, and Avery’s a screaming 24.70. Keep in mind that these figures DO NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT’S GAME, the most dominant game of the Bradley era, so Bradley’s differential is actually better than that. Plenty more after the jump.

Boston’s average efficiencies (including last night) are 98.6 on offense and 95.8 on defense. Notice that the offensive rating of Ray’s lineup is slightly higher than the average, as you’d hope. But if the offensive rating for that Bradley number, if we could extrapolate it to a full season, would make for easily one of the top three highest-scoring starting lineups in basketball. Miami’s starters put up a 109.93, which isn’t even close.

Same goes for Bradley’s defensive rating of 89.86. Other than Philly’s starters and Chicago’s bench-with-Deng unit, that lineup would give up fewer points than any other high-rotation lineup in basketball. And again, the Bradley unit numbers are actually better than those after yesterday.

http://celticshub.com/2012/04/02/the-bradley-effect-looking-at-5-man-units/

Does anyone else really need any more explanation of who will be starting once both players are healthy?

[ItStaysYang]

Oh how we missed AB's cuts and quick buckets off precise KG dishes during the postseason. Not to mention that defense. The transition points the Celtics get because of AB's defense and athleticism are (were) huge factors in Doc's decision to not only start him at a point, but continue starting him (when ray thought he was "better")

[rayallen1934]

I am one that would love Bradley to start


but blaming ray and comparing sample sizes is a discredit to Ray Allen


The Celtics were barely playing the 1st half of the season



Rondo sucked

Pierce SUCKED BAD

and Garnett wasn't playing over his head


all the while Ray Allen, a healthy one was keeping them in games



But that goes over the head of every fan. Bradley was averaging like 4 points a game in the Atlant/Sixers series. His cuts were being totally stopped and his shot was way off, and he wasn't playing that great of defense.


People look at that stat of efficiency and really take it to another level.

[wasi]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference. I mean obviously he's at a disadvantage but being able to stay in front of your man and having the athleticism to contest makes a big difference. I'm also a believer that when teams try too hard to abuse mismatches it ruins the flow of their offense so I'm fine with it.

The thing about Bradley is I don't think he's content. I expect him to work even harder and improve every day. I may be more optimistic than others about how good he can be but I'm sure most would agree his work ethic will guarantee he will continue to improve to some degree.

Allen came back and started a game last season I believe. After that he put Avery back in as a starter. It could have just been that Ray was injured and he thought it was a temporary fix or he may have thought it worked better. I think it worked better. Avery wears down the opposing guards then once Ray comes in he's playing tired guys, it just makes since. Especially since Ray has slowed down a little on the defensive end the last couple years. Doc is putting Ray in the best situation to succeed. Playing against tired starters and bench players gives Ray a huge advantage and limits his defensive disadvantage.

I also believe until Avery can score more that Ray will actually play more minutes and I agree with that for now. Ray is still an offensive weapon but I think Doc does have to figure out how to make it easier for Ray to score off the bench. That's the one aspect I don't like about him coming off the bench is that there's really no play maker to get him good looks. So maybe if Doc can get creative he can get him easier shots.

That's just my opinion but it is one I suspect Doc shares. If it's true that Avery wont be back until December then Doc may just continue starting Ray so that could change it up. Just my two cents.

[nickagneta]

Bradley was averaging like 4 points a game in the Atlant/Sixers series. His cuts were being totally stopped and his shot was way off, and he wasn't playing that great of defense.


People look at that stat of efficiency and really take it to another level.

Efficiency rating is one of the most revealing and accurate stats in basketball. I think the sample size was just fine aznd truly indicative of what was happening on the floor.

The Celtics starters, even in 2008, with one of the most dominating defensive teams ever, didn't have a 89 efficiency on defense. So the whole "Pierce and KG weren't playing well" argument doesn't work because when they were 4 years younger, the group didn't play defense as efficiently as when Bradley was playing this year.

[wdleehi]

Was this topic merely created for trolling purposes?

Remember this season before RA's ankles bothered him and he was slow to come off screens, not hitting 3's, and we started doing amazing when Bradley took over at the 2?

Do you not remember the stifling on-ball defense that Bradley plays or the offensive game he started developing when he started?

If I recall correctly, our chances of beating the heat were sorely diminished when we lost our STARTING SHOOTING GUARD

Edit: We need more scoring from our 2nd unit..... what about having Ray Allen on the bench doesn't yield that? The best 3 point shooter of all time going against other team's bench SG's? Sounds like points to me. Ray can still play in crunch time.....

No, it was created to spark a debate and discussion.



It is a good question.  

Bradley starting last year was a good shot in the arm last year.  


Ray had been great as a starter for many years.  


Both are important to this team and both will see minutes.  

[LarBrd33]

because our 2nd year 6'2 180 pound shooting guard appears to be an aggressive defender (against other undersized guards) and he had a 1 month stretch of very believable offensive ability (in between shooting 36%) during the tail end of a lockout shortened season when opposing teams didn't have time to properly scout or practice.  

Clearly he's the best option over a guy who continues to shoot lights out, spread the floor, and post averages of 46% FG, 45% 3P and 91% from the line.  

I guess we can put you in the start Ray camp, then?

No.  I'm in the start Avery Bradley camp and bring Ray off the bench (but DEFINITELY bring Ray back).  

I just don't know if that lasts.  I haven't seen enough from Bradley to be convinced he's a golden god.  I could see it working... but i could also see Bradley struggle scoring and get exposed defensively due to his size... and then having Ray move back into the starting spot.  I don't expect it... I just can see it happening.

I haven't read all posts so I may be repeating but Avery did alright guarding Joe Johnson and that's a huge size difference.

Sorry... I stopped reading after this.  The few times I saw Bradley guarding Johnson, Joe took Avery behind the woodshed and made him his girlfriend.