Say we do lose Ray.

[LarBrd33]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs. 

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

[BballTim]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs. 

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

  One of the main reasons we were successful is because we weren't at such a deficit athletically with Bradley in the lineup. He hit 55% on those threes in April but he only took about 2 a game. Say you knock his number down from 55% to a "reasonable" 37% (33% lower) he scores 14 a game instead of 15.
 

[Theodora5]

hello and welcome

[colincb]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs. 

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

  One of the main reasons we were successful is because we weren't at such a deficit athletically with Bradley in the lineup. He hit 55% on those threes in April but he only took about 2 a game. Say you knock his number down from 55% to a "reasonable" 37% (33% lower) he scores 14 a game instead of 15.
 

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 minute NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB (and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

AB is a truly elite defender, but I've got to go back to the pre-new-Big-3 era to recall as much hype and hope about a guy with so small a body of work.  Just for the record, he's shot 33% from the 3 since he's been in the NBA for 2 seasons and 1 playoff and shot 38% in college.  AB's a good mid-range shooter, but that's about it as far as his offensive strengths.  Cherry picking stats based on 28 games as a starter and acting as if he's an All-Star in the making is pretty much wishful thinking. 

Ray coming back to start or back-up is the best alternative since we're not going to get as good a shooter in a sign-and-trade OR we'll have to use the full MLE to try to get someone like Jamal Crawford (who opted-out of a similar salary) rather than use it on a big.  IF we do try to contend next year, we need a Plan B in case AB's offense isn't enough for a starting SG and because we need scoring off the bench.  If not Ray, there better be some one else or Danny's taking a gamble at least as bad as depending on Shaq to take over for Perk.

[bfrombleacher]

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB(and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

Do you think the loss of JO also helped? I think a lot of people would certainly agree.

I think it's certainly a mixture of both.

Basketball is a game of rhythm. Losing and having half a team of injured players certainly hurts your rhythm.

[BballTim]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs. 

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

  One of the main reasons we were successful is because we weren't at such a deficit athletically with Bradley in the lineup. He hit 55% on those threes in April but he only took about 2 a game. Say you knock his number down from 55% to a "reasonable" 37% (33% lower) he scores 14 a game instead of 15.
 

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 minute NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB (and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

AB is a truly elite defender, but I've got to go back to the pre-new-Big-3 era to recall as much hype and hope about a guy with so small a body of work.  Just for the record, he's shot 33% from the 3 since he's been in the NBA for 2 seasons and 1 playoff and shot 38% in college.  AB's a good mid-range shooter, but that's about it as far as his offensive strengths.  Cherry picking stats based on 28 games as a starter and acting as if he's an All-Star in the making is pretty much wishful thinking. 

Ray coming back to start or back-up is the best alternative since we're not going to get as good a shooter in a sign-and-trade OR we'll have to use the full MLE to try to get someone like Jamal Crawford (who opted-out of a similar salary) rather than use it on a big.  IF we do try to contend next year, we need a Plan B in case AB's offense isn't enough for a starting SG and because we need scoring off the bench.  If not Ray, there better be some one else or Danny's taking a gamble at least as bad as depending on Shaq to take over for Perk.

  It's true that we played better in the second half of the season because PP and KG weren't playing like garbage anymore. I never said that Bradley starting was the main reason we played well, I never said he's a lock to keep shooting like he did late in the season, and I obviously never said he was an all-star.

  He's saying that if we don't have Ray we need someone just like him or we'll regress. I was saying that we were also very successful with a player who's pretty much the opposite of Ray as shooting guard. Kind of like everyone fretting after Posey left because we really needed our backup wing to be tall and stretch the floor, yet we were able to get to the finals when our backup wing was Tony Allen, a short(ish) player who's more athletic than Posey and a weak outside shooter.

[BballTim]

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB(and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

Do you think the loss of JO also helped? I think a lot of people would certainly agree.

I think it's certainly a mixture of both.

Basketball is a game of rhythm. Losing and having half a team of injured players certainly hurts your rhythm.

  Two aging vets and three younger players, two of whom were very athletic, was a good mix. Rondo and 4 players in their mid-30s wasn't.

[2dark]

As someone mentioned around the AS break when it was unclear will we trade Ray, ABs ceiling is Tony Allen with better IQ and offense, Ray Allens ceiling is... Ray Allen.

Problem I see with Ray resigning is that eventhough everything falls our way ( Danny gets some pieces, KG decides we can contend and comes back) he will have that phone call from Doc telling him he is going to Memphis fresh in his head. I think similar to KG, eventhough he is extremely loyal, Ray wants to play last few years for a contender, and wont risk puting him self in situation where he could end up in washington or bobcats if Danny thinks he can get an Mayo type upgrade for him (bit worse player, but younger).

To avoid that Danny would have to give him no trade clause in his contract which I highly doubt.

[chambers]

Lol @ Battier being an upgrade over Ray. Battier is basically a spot up shooter who can defend very well- he has about one third the offensive talent that Ray has.
If you put Ray on the Heat as a three point specialist he'd probably shoot 60-70% running hot in a playoff series.
Battier is on the PERFECT team for him where he has the best two wing player combo in the world driving and dishing and swinging the ball around to him- these two guys make Mario Chalmers and Eddie Jones look good. Battier would stink horribly on any other team. Remember him on the Grizzlies? No you don't, it's because he's a one dimensional offensive player with good/dirty/cheap defense and size.

I hope everyone remembers Ray was severely injured this playoffs- basically playing with one strong leg and has to have surgery to fix his ankle lol.
How quickly people forget.

[Chief]

Lol @ Battier being an upgrade over Ray. Battier is basically a spot up shooter who can defend very well- he has about one third the offensive talent that Ray has.
If you put Ray on the Heat as a three point specialist he'd probably shoot 60-70% running hot in a playoff series.
Battier is on the PERFECT team for him where he has the best two wing player combo in the world driving and dishing and swinging the ball around to him- these two guys make Mario Chalmers and Eddie Jones look good. Battier would stink horribly on any other team. Remember him on the Grizzlies? No you don't, it's because he's a one dimensional offensive player with good/dirty/cheap defense and size.

I hope everyone remembers Ray was severely injured this playoffs- basically playing with one strong leg and has to have surgery to fix his ankle lol.
How quickly people forget.

People forgot what? How great Ray was in his prime? He was great. Now at almost 37, he's a shell of his former self. He can still bring it occasionally, but not every night, anymore. He'll make a great role player, for the next few years, but the guy we all remember is not walking threw those doors again.

[droopdog7]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs.  

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

  One of the main reasons we were successful is because we weren't at such a deficit athletically with Bradley in the lineup. He hit 55% on those threes in April but he only took about 2 a game. Say you knock his number down from 55% to a "reasonable" 37% (33% lower) he scores 14 a game instead of 15.
 

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 minute NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB (and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

AB is a truly elite defender, but I've got to go back to the pre-new-Big-3 era to recall as much hype and hope about a guy with so small a body of work.  Just for the record, he's shot 33% from the 3 since he's been in the NBA for 2 seasons and 1 playoff and shot 38% in college.  AB's a good mid-range shooter, but that's about it as far as his offensive strengths.  Cherry picking stats based on 28 games as a starter and acting as if he's an All-Star in the making is pretty much wishful thinking.  

Ray coming back to start or back-up is the best alternative since we're not going to get as good a shooter in a sign-and-trade OR we'll have to use the full MLE to try to get someone like Jamal Crawford (who opted-out of a similar salary) rather than use it on a big.  IF we do try to contend next year, we need a Plan B in case AB's offense isn't enough for a starting SG and because we need scoring off the bench.  If not Ray, there better be some one else or Danny's taking a gamble at least as bad as depending on Shaq to take over for Perk.

  It's true that we played better in the second half of the season because PP and KG weren't playing like garbage anymore. I never said that Bradley starting was the main reason we played well, I never said he's a lock to keep shooting like he did late in the season, and I obviously never said he was an all-star.

  He's saying that if we don't have Ray we need someone just like him or we'll regress. I was saying that we were also very successful with a player who's pretty much the opposite of Ray as shooting guard. Kind of like everyone fretting after Posey left because we really needed our backup wing to be tall and stretch the floor, yet we were able to get to the finals when our backup wing was Tony Allen, a short(ish) player who's more athletic than Posey and a weak outside shooter.

Despite what some posters think, Ray brings value; a lot of it.  In my mind, we are clearly better with Ray AND AB.  

Question:  who do you propose we get that will bring the kind of value that Ray brings?  Because if the answer is nobody or, anybody, then we most certainly will regress next year.

[pearljammer10]

Id love Jet coming off our bench. Probably be too expensive however.

[Celts Fan 92]

Apparently we're close to losin Ray to da Heat smh

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2012/06/25/heat.and.ray.allen.have.mutual.interest.team.targetting.big.man.their.first.round?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[mctyson]

Question:  who do you propose we get that will bring the kind of value that Ray brings?  Because if the answer is nobody or, anybody, then we most certainly will regress next year.

Short answer: No One.  You are not going to get a Hall-of-Fame shooting guard who is coming off of one of his best 3-pt shooting seasons in his career, who is battle tested, who is a champion, who played hurt for you when you had no other options.

Long answer:  It is complicated.  Avery Bradley is our starting SG next year.  Will Ray accept a contract to play for the Celtics for one (maybe 2) more seasons, at a discount, and come off the bench behind a 21 year-old who is 6'2" with a total of 28 games started under his belt?  Nobody knows the answer to that for sure, but we can all speculate that Ray would rather start and earn more money for a "contender" than be a bench option for less money for Boston.

So what will happen?  The simple side of me says that Ray goes to a playoff team that gives him the most money and a starting role.  The complex side of me says that Ray is going to have a hard time leaving if KG comes back, especially if Danny drafts bigs and the 2-guard position is basically left up to AB and maybe Pietrus.

[BballTim]

if we lose ray we'll regress.  He's a phenomenal shooter still... he needed ankle surgery in the playoffs.  

A guy like that is absolutely crucial to spacing the floor when you have a pass-first point guard who can't consistently create his own shot.

  We seemed to be pretty successful late in the year when Ray was out of the lineup.

I think we were "successful" in SPITE of Ray being out of the lineup... not because Ray was out of the lineup.

Have to acknowledge that during that stretch, an unscouted Avery Bradley caught opposing defenses off guard and went on a crazy shooting streak.  He averaged 15 points and shot 55% from three during the month of April.  Hope that wasn't a fluke, but I'd be very surprised if he was anywhere near that good of a shooter long-term.  Ray is, though.  And if Ray is gone and Bradley isn't streaking... it might be a bit of a problem.

  One of the main reasons we were successful is because we weren't at such a deficit athletically with Bradley in the lineup. He hit 55% on those threes in April but he only took about 2 a game. Say you knock his number down from 55% to a "reasonable" 37% (33% lower) he scores 14 a game instead of 15.
 

The main reason we were successful after the ASG was that KG and Pierce played dramatically better.  It certainly helped that AB played well in filling in and taking over the starting SG position, but Ray even with his injury had a higher NBA efficiency and per 48 minute NBA efficiency post-ASG than AB (and was far superior to AB in the playoffs when both were injured).

AB is a truly elite defender, but I've got to go back to the pre-new-Big-3 era to recall as much hype and hope about a guy with so small a body of work.  Just for the record, he's shot 33% from the 3 since he's been in the NBA for 2 seasons and 1 playoff and shot 38% in college.  AB's a good mid-range shooter, but that's about it as far as his offensive strengths.  Cherry picking stats based on 28 games as a starter and acting as if he's an All-Star in the making is pretty much wishful thinking.  

Ray coming back to start or back-up is the best alternative since we're not going to get as good a shooter in a sign-and-trade OR we'll have to use the full MLE to try to get someone like Jamal Crawford (who opted-out of a similar salary) rather than use it on a big.  IF we do try to contend next year, we need a Plan B in case AB's offense isn't enough for a starting SG and because we need scoring off the bench.  If not Ray, there better be some one else or Danny's taking a gamble at least as bad as depending on Shaq to take over for Perk.

  It's true that we played better in the second half of the season because PP and KG weren't playing like garbage anymore. I never said that Bradley starting was the main reason we played well, I never said he's a lock to keep shooting like he did late in the season, and I obviously never said he was an all-star.

  He's saying that if we don't have Ray we need someone just like him or we'll regress. I was saying that we were also very successful with a player who's pretty much the opposite of Ray as shooting guard. Kind of like everyone fretting after Posey left because we really needed our backup wing to be tall and stretch the floor, yet we were able to get to the finals when our backup wing was Tony Allen, a short(ish) player who's more athletic than Posey and a weak outside shooter.

Despite what some posters think, Ray brings value; a lot of it.  In my mind, we are clearly better with Ray AND AB.  

Question:  who do you propose we get that will bring the kind of value that Ray brings?  Because if the answer is nobody or, anybody, then we most certainly will regress next year.

  First of all, when you say regress, I'd ask "regress from where?" because the Celts were something of a mixed bag last year, fluctuating from a top team to the middle of the pack. We never had a healthy Ray after Bradley got comfortable in his starting sg role, so I'd argue that we'd be regressing from a level that we didn't really reach last year. I could also claim that if we bring back Green we'd be bringing in a player that's more valuable than Ray at this point in time.

  But clearly either bringing him back or doing a sign and trade to get a player back would be better than letting him go for nothing.