No to Jared. (Danny's Infatuation w/ Undersized Bigs)

[bfrombleacher]

Sorry - i didn't bother to read the entire forum here, so i'm certainly missing something. However, for those that dismiss sullinger as being a legitimate athlete - what do you qualify as an athlete? Is he like big baby because he's 'undersized' chubby, etc...? I don't really see the comparisons. Big Baby is an energy player that can't dunk and has t'rex arms.

Sullinger has a giant wingspan, can throw down hard for a dude his size, and can carve out space down low with the best of them in this draft. He knows how to use his size to his advantage, thats for sure.

Have you ever seen this guy up close in person? His legs are tree trunks and his behind is something to behold. I was front row at this years march madness game's at the garden. Sullinger can FLAT OUT BALL. If it wasn't for foul trouble, he would have totally dominated the ball. His IQ is way up there, he fights HARD down low for positioning and WANTS the ball. When he gets the ball, he knows how to score. He has REAL skill and his foot work was high NBA level against these college players. Again, his ability to use his body, take the hit, and work around the rim will make him a solid nba player. He eats up rebounds, again, due to his ability to use his size, anticipation for the ball, and yes - quickness.

Guys - this guy is an absolute baller. He wasn't a lottery pick just a year ago for no reason. Watch a few highlight reels of him and you'll truly get a feel for what he can bring to the game. Call him an unathletic, undersized big man if you want... I don't believe it. But please, do not underestimate the heart this guy has, his willingness to win, and his pure natural ability to play basketball.

By the way, I'm a Michigan fan... this is totally unbiased.

Also - something hit a nerve here for me, of course... I've been following these boards like a leach for years. C's season ticket holder, die hard bball fan. thanks for keeping me entertained. Go Celtics.

He plays under the rim and is slightly undersized. I think that's the main gripe. And his body type.

I also think we're afraid of the whole 6'9 un-athletic (under the rim) big man thing is because of Big Baby and his love for his jumpshot. Sullinger wants to be in the post.

Plus Baby also got blocked a lot whenever he got into the post. He's just not a post player. Sullinger not only has a post player's mentality but also (like you said) a body which he knows how to use.

You also pointed out his wingspan.

Big Baby is undersized. Period. He's also paint allergic. You made a good point in that Sullinger is a physical specimen apart (even though he's not athletic).

[Yogi]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.  Please don't make it seem like if Sullinger turns out to be Big Baby then it's the end of the world... It's rare even for people in the lottery to make a career in the NBA.  Big Baby is an above average player in the NBA.  It's probably human tendency to blame someone for all your troubles, and Baby is an easy target but let's not forget that he's a very good basketball player. 

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Sullinger is a polished, NBA level low post game. He's developing a good mid range game as well. He sure has some red flags but that's a talent too good to pass. He is not athletic in anyway, but he knows how to use the rest of his bulky, strong body to his advantage. He's a better BBD if we're comparing Jared to him. He's not as energetic,but more offensively polished.

[Fafnir]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.

His TS% was under .500 and his rebound rate while a better than typical 14 for Baby wasn't good for a C. Meanwhile the Pacers destroyed the Magic on the glass.

Baby played well and hard given his limitations, but 19 9 are empty numbers when your team is getting crushed in the paint in large part because you're playing C 38 minutes a game.

I agree that Glen Davis wouldn't be a bad result for a first round pick it certainly woulnd't be a good one either. You want starters not backups from the first round and frankly if the C's want to avoid the lottery soon they need to do even better than that. We need to get some serious talent with our picks.

[clover]

Sorry - i didn't bother to read the entire forum here, so i'm certainly missing something. However, for those that dismiss sullinger as being a legitimate athlete - what do you qualify as an athlete? Is he like big baby because he's 'undersized' chubby, etc...? I don't really see the comparisons. Big Baby is an energy player that can't dunk and has t'rex arms.

Sullinger has a giant wingspan, can throw down hard for a dude his size, and can carve out space down low with the best of them in this draft. He knows how to use his size to his advantage, thats for sure.

Have you ever seen this guy up close in person? His legs are tree trunks and his behind is something to behold. I was front row at this years march madness game's at the garden. Sullinger can FLAT OUT BALL. If it wasn't for foul trouble, he would have totally dominated the ball. His IQ is way up there, he fights HARD down low for positioning and WANTS the ball. When he gets the ball, he knows how to score. He has REAL skill and his foot work was high NBA level against these college players. Again, his ability to use his body, take the hit, and work around the rim will make him a solid nba player. He eats up rebounds, again, due to his ability to use his size, anticipation for the ball, and yes - quickness.

Guys - this guy is an absolute baller. He wasn't a lottery pick just a year ago for no reason. Watch a few highlight reels of him and you'll truly get a feel for what he can bring to the game. Call him an unathletic, undersized big man if you want... I don't believe it. But please, do not underestimate the heart this guy has, his willingness to win, and his pure natural ability to play basketball.

By the way, I'm a Michigan fan... this is totally unbiased.

Also - something hit a nerve here for me, of course... I've been following these boards like a leach for years. C's season ticket holder, die hard bball fan. thanks for keeping me entertained. Go Celtics.

FWIW he was among the worst players in the 3/4 court sprint and agility drill at the combine and he bench pressed 9 reps to PG Scott Machado's 17, contributing to DraftExpress ranking him 50th of 52 players in their 'athletic testing composite ranking':

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

[Yogi]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.

His TS% was under .500 and his rebound rate while a better than typical 14 for Baby wasn't good for a C. Meanwhile the Pacers destroyed the Magic on the glass.

Baby played well and hard given his limitations, but 19 9 are empty numbers when your team is getting crushed in the paint in large part because you're playing C 38 minutes a game.

I agree that Glen Davis wouldn't be a bad result for a first round pick it certainly woulnd't be a good one either. You want starters not backups from the first round and frankly if the C's want to avoid the lottery soon they need to do even better than that. We need to get some serious talent with our picks.

What you say would be pretty sound argument until you look at what the Pacers did to the much taller and M.I.P Ryan Anderson.  9.6 points and 4.6 rebounds in maybe 4 minutes per game less than Glen Davis.

[KevinConnor]

If he slides to 21 I'd say a big YES to Jared.

[Fafnir]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.

His TS% was under .500 and his rebound rate while a better than typical 14 for Baby wasn't good for a C. Meanwhile the Pacers destroyed the Magic on the glass.

Baby played well and hard given his limitations, but 19 9 are empty numbers when your team is getting crushed in the paint in large part because you're playing C 38 minutes a game.

I agree that Glen Davis wouldn't be a bad result for a first round pick it certainly woulnd't be a good one either. You want starters not backups from the first round and frankly if the C's want to avoid the lottery soon they need to do even better than that. We need to get some serious talent with our picks.

What you say would be pretty sound argument until you look at what the Pacers did to the much taller and M.I.P Ryan Anderson.  9.6 points and 4.6 rebounds in maybe 4 minutes per game less than Glen Davis.

So because the Magic's PF played poorly lets give Davis bonus points?

Ryan Anderson revealed himself to be a limited stretch 4 without Howard around to play off of, that doesn't make Davis's performance "better".

[KevinConnor]

Sorry - i didn't bother to read the entire forum here, so i'm certainly missing something. However, for those that dismiss sullinger as being a legitimate athlete - what do you qualify as an athlete? Is he like big baby because he's 'undersized' chubby, etc...? I don't really see the comparisons. Big Baby is an energy player that can't dunk and has t'rex arms.

Sullinger has a giant wingspan, can throw down hard for a dude his size, and can carve out space down low with the best of them in this draft. He knows how to use his size to his advantage, thats for sure.

Have you ever seen this guy up close in person? His legs are tree trunks and his behind is something to behold. I was front row at this years march madness game's at the garden. Sullinger can FLAT OUT BALL. If it wasn't for foul trouble, he would have totally dominated the ball. His IQ is way up there, he fights HARD down low for positioning and WANTS the ball. When he gets the ball, he knows how to score. He has REAL skill and his foot work was high NBA level against these college players. Again, his ability to use his body, take the hit, and work around the rim will make him a solid nba player. He eats up rebounds, again, due to his ability to use his size, anticipation for the ball, and yes - quickness.

Guys - this guy is an absolute baller. He wasn't a lottery pick just a year ago for no reason. Watch a few highlight reels of him and you'll truly get a feel for what he can bring to the game. Call him an unathletic, undersized big man if you want... I don't believe it. But please, do not underestimate the heart this guy has, his willingness to win, and his pure natural ability to play basketball.

By the way, I'm a Michigan fan... this is totally unbiased.

Also - something hit a nerve here for me, of course... I've been following these boards like a leach for years. C's season ticket holder, die hard bball fan. thanks for keeping me entertained. Go Celtics.

FWIW he was among the worst players in the 3/4 court sprint and agility drill at the combine and he bench pressed 9 reps to PG Scott Machado's 17, contributing to DraftExpress ranking him 50th of 52 players in their 'athletic testing composite ranking':

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

So?

It's a good thing Bird wasn't evaluated in this time and age I guess!

[Jon]

Here's the deal:

When you're drafting outside the lottery (as Danny generally has done since he's come here), you aren't going to get the prototypical player who has all the skills you'd like for his position.  You're either going to get an athlete with size that you hope you can turn into a player or a player who has some sort of flaw (size, as with BBD, Powe, Gomes) or attitude(Rondo, TA), or in some cases a mixture of both or more things.  

The history of turning athletes with size into players is not very good in the NBA, particularly in Boston.  Look at the likes of Jerome Moiso, Kedrick Brown, Marcus Banks, and J.R. Giddens.  All were great athletes with prototypical size.  None could actually play.  

In fact, I think some of Danny's biggest hits have been going with guys who can play, but weren't actually the right size (like BBD, Powe, Gomes, TA, and Bradley).  

So is Sullinger a guarantee to be the next David West or Carlos Boozer?  No.  But drafting a guy who knows how to play the game, but is an inch or two shorter is a better idea that drafting some 7-0 athletic guy who will never amount to more than a Jerome Moiso or a Ryan Hollins (though I like Hollins, but he's certainly not a building block for a franchise).  

[bbd24]

Here's the deal:

When you're drafting outside the lottery (as Danny generally has done since he's come here), you aren't going to get the prototypical player who has all the skills you'd like for his position.  You're either going to get an athlete that you hope you can turn into a player or a player who has some sort of flaw (size, as with BBD, Powe, Gomes) or attitude(Rondo, TA), or in some cases a mixture of both or more things. 

The history of turning athletes into players is not very good in the NBA, particularly in Boston.  Look at the likes of Jerome Moiso, Kedrick Brown, Marcus Banks, and J.R. Giddens.  All were great athletes.  None could actually play. 

In fact, I think some of Danny's biggest hits have been going with guys who can play, but weren't actually the right size (like BBD, Powe, Gomes, TA, and Bradley). 

So is Sullinger a guarantee to be the next David West or Carlos Boozer?  No.  But drafting a guy who knows how to play the game, but is an inch or two shorter is a better idea that drafting some 7-0 athletic guy who will never amount to more than a Jerome Moiso or a Ryan Hollins (though I like Hollins, but he's certainly not a building block for a franchise). 

Pretty much hit the nail on the head with this post.  Good stuff.

I can't believe our best GM since Red gets hammered still about his drafts.  I don't call it an infatuation, I call it thinking outside the box.  Ainge isn't afraid to take chances on tweeners or undersized bigs, & he's done well considering where he's drafting. 

The guy has produced what he set out to produce, a championship team year in and year out.  Undersized drafts or not, that's all I can ask for.

Sullinger isn't a slouch by any means, and if Ainge feels he can play, I'm on board.  I see no reason not to be considering the resume of Ainge.  With 2 1st rd picks in a deep draft, might as well chalk up another career HR for Ainge.  I don't see how he misses with the chips & cap space he's cleared.  Too much ammo for a deadly GM like Ainge.  That's like leaving him open for a wide open 3 back in the day.  Nothing but nylon.

[Yogi]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.

His TS% was under .500 and his rebound rate while a better than typical 14 for Baby wasn't good for a C. Meanwhile the Pacers destroyed the Magic on the glass.

Baby played well and hard given his limitations, but 19 9 are empty numbers when your team is getting crushed in the paint in large part because you're playing C 38 minutes a game.

I agree that Glen Davis wouldn't be a bad result for a first round pick it certainly woulnd't be a good one either. You want starters not backups from the first round and frankly if the C's want to avoid the lottery soon they need to do even better than that. We need to get some serious talent with our picks.

What you say would be pretty sound argument until you look at what the Pacers did to the much taller and M.I.P Ryan Anderson.  9.6 points and 4.6 rebounds in maybe 4 minutes per game less than Glen Davis.

So because the Magic's PF played poorly lets give Davis bonus points?

Ryan Anderson revealed himself to be a limited stretch 4 without Howard around to play off of, that doesn't make Davis's performance "better".

  Well there are two possibilities here.  One, the Pacers are incredibly big and athletic team and that's why Ryan Anderson struggled and Glen Davis played tremendously well to get 19 and 9 against them.  
   Two, Ryan Anderson was exposed playing without Dwight Howard and Baby's performance was thus not as impressive.  
   The second scenario might explain Ryan Anderson's terrible shooting because Dwight wasn't being double teamed.  Logic would dictate that his rebounding numbers would increase as there are a lot more rebounds available without Dwight on the floor.  At the very least, they should stay the same.  However he was grabbing a full 3 rebounds less in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.  
   On the other hand, playing against the Pacer front line would explain both the poor shooting because they have long athletic wings who can contest his threes and his decreased rebounding even without Howard on the floor.  Aren't you amazed that Davis was able to grab 9 rebounds a game against a 7'2 Hibbert when he's shorter than the opposing team's shooting guard??

[Dchuck]

Sorry - i didn't bother to read the entire forum here, so i'm certainly missing something. However, for those that dismiss sullinger as being a legitimate athlete - what do you qualify as an athlete? Is he like big baby because he's 'undersized' chubby, etc...? I don't really see the comparisons. Big Baby is an energy player that can't dunk and has t'rex arms.

Sullinger has a giant wingspan, can throw down hard for a dude his size, and can carve out space down low with the best of them in this draft. He knows how to use his size to his advantage, thats for sure.

Have you ever seen this guy up close in person? His legs are tree trunks and his behind is something to behold. I was front row at this years march madness game's at the garden. Sullinger can FLAT OUT BALL. If it wasn't for foul trouble, he would have totally dominated the ball. His IQ is way up there, he fights HARD down low for positioning and WANTS the ball. When he gets the ball, he knows how to score. He has REAL skill and his foot work was high NBA level against these college players. Again, his ability to use his body, take the hit, and work around the rim will make him a solid nba player. He eats up rebounds, again, due to his ability to use his size, anticipation for the ball, and yes - quickness.

Guys - this guy is an absolute baller. He wasn't a lottery pick just a year ago for no reason. Watch a few highlight reels of him and you'll truly get a feel for what he can bring to the game. Call him an unathletic, undersized big man if you want... I don't believe it. But please, do not underestimate the heart this guy has, his willingness to win, and his pure natural ability to play basketball.

By the way, I'm a Michigan fan... this is totally unbiased.

Also - something hit a nerve here for me, of course... I've been following these boards like a leach for years. C's season ticket holder, die hard bball fan. thanks for keeping me entertained. Go Celtics.

FWIW he was among the worst players in the 3/4 court sprint and agility drill at the combine and he bench pressed 9 reps to PG Scott Machado's 17, contributing to DraftExpress ranking him 50th of 52 players in their 'athletic testing composite ranking':

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

So?

It's a good thing Bird wasn't evaluated in this time and age I guess!

Good point!

But what happened to Bird when his BACK started to fail him?

[Fafnir]

One thing people don't seem to realize... Big Baby put up 19 and 9 against George 6'9, Granger 6'9, David West 6'9 and Roy Hibbert 7'2 in the playoffs this year and he's getting paid 6.5 million per year.

His TS% was under .500 and his rebound rate while a better than typical 14 for Baby wasn't good for a C. Meanwhile the Pacers destroyed the Magic on the glass.

Baby played well and hard given his limitations, but 19 9 are empty numbers when your team is getting crushed in the paint in large part because you're playing C 38 minutes a game.

I agree that Glen Davis wouldn't be a bad result for a first round pick it certainly woulnd't be a good one either. You want starters not backups from the first round and frankly if the C's want to avoid the lottery soon they need to do even better than that. We need to get some serious talent with our picks.

What you say would be pretty sound argument until you look at what the Pacers did to the much taller and M.I.P Ryan Anderson.  9.6 points and 4.6 rebounds in maybe 4 minutes per game less than Glen Davis.

So because the Magic's PF played poorly lets give Davis bonus points?

Ryan Anderson revealed himself to be a limited stretch 4 without Howard around to play off of, that doesn't make Davis's performance "better".

  Well there are two possibilities here.  One, the Pacers are incredibly big and athletic team and that's why Ryan Anderson struggled and Glen Davis played tremendously well to get 19 and 9 against them.  
   Two, Ryan Anderson was exposed playing without Dwight Howard and Baby's performance was thus not as impressive.  
   The second scenario might explain Ryan Anderson's terrible shooting because Dwight wasn't being double teamed.  Logic would dictate that his rebounding numbers would increase as there are a lot more rebounds available without Dwight on the floor.  At the very least, they should stay the same.  However he was grabbing a full 3 rebounds less in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.

When your team is getting crushed on the glass and you still only grab rebounds at 14 rate at C that isn't playing well. Neither is sub .500 TS% scoring, Ryan Anderson actually scored more efficiently than Davis shockingly.

Davis showed himself to be the same player he's been for 3 years now. He just got 38 MPG against the Pacers in the playoffs. Good offensive rebounder when playing inside, inadequete defensive rebounder, inefficient scorer, sold man to man defender if short, and an inadquete team defender due to poor length.

He's a backup level big man, which isn't a bad result for a late first round pick. But its not what you should be aiming for.

[clover]

Sorry - i didn't bother to read the entire forum here, so i'm certainly missing something. However, for those that dismiss sullinger as being a legitimate athlete - what do you qualify as an athlete? Is he like big baby because he's 'undersized' chubby, etc...? I don't really see the comparisons. Big Baby is an energy player that can't dunk and has t'rex arms.

Sullinger has a giant wingspan, can throw down hard for a dude his size, and can carve out space down low with the best of them in this draft. He knows how to use his size to his advantage, thats for sure.

Have you ever seen this guy up close in person? His legs are tree trunks and his behind is something to behold. I was front row at this years march madness game's at the garden. Sullinger can FLAT OUT BALL. If it wasn't for foul trouble, he would have totally dominated the ball. His IQ is way up there, he fights HARD down low for positioning and WANTS the ball. When he gets the ball, he knows how to score. He has REAL skill and his foot work was high NBA level against these college players. Again, his ability to use his body, take the hit, and work around the rim will make him a solid nba player. He eats up rebounds, again, due to his ability to use his size, anticipation for the ball, and yes - quickness.

Guys - this guy is an absolute baller. He wasn't a lottery pick just a year ago for no reason. Watch a few highlight reels of him and you'll truly get a feel for what he can bring to the game. Call him an unathletic, undersized big man if you want... I don't believe it. But please, do not underestimate the heart this guy has, his willingness to win, and his pure natural ability to play basketball.

By the way, I'm a Michigan fan... this is totally unbiased.

Also - something hit a nerve here for me, of course... I've been following these boards like a leach for years. C's season ticket holder, die hard bball fan. thanks for keeping me entertained. Go Celtics.

FWIW he was among the worst players in the 3/4 court sprint and agility drill at the combine and he bench pressed 9 reps to PG Scott Machado's 17, contributing to DraftExpress ranking him 50th of 52 players in their 'athletic testing composite ranking':

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

So?

It's a good thing Bird wasn't evaluated in this time and age I guess!

OP was wondering what people could be basing their concerns of his not being athletic on--I simply provided a possible source with the FWIW disclaimer.  Kevin Durant famously couldn't get up one rep on the bench press, but he seems to have managed okay in the NBA.