Top players to build around.

[bopna]

 there is NO way come hell or high water am I trading Rondo for Wade.

the dude is 30 and is now second fiddle to LeQueen on his own team.  Im actually fine with building around Rondo, just really suround him with players that will highlight his best asset which is give him lights out shooters or players that are fast and can run with him on the fast break, don't forget players than cana ctually crash the boards and the C's contend guaranteed.

[Gregory0]

support

[LarBrd33]

That's hilarious.

[BballTim]

Lol.  Osirus... Trust me on this, you can't win an argument with Tim about Rondo.  It's not that you're wrong...  it's just that he's utterly convinced that Rondo is the best player alive.

  Pretty funny coming from someone who not only believes that Chris Paul is a player without flaws, but thinks that's a widely held belief. Obviously I've never claimed that Rondo is the best player alive. It turns out there's a lot more space between "best player alive" and "decent player who rides the coattails of his HOF teammates" than you realize.

[OsirusCeltics]

Top Tier = LeBron, Wade, Durant and Dwight

Second tier = the point guards. Melo. Maybe Harden.

Third tier = Rudy Gay, Tony Parker, Chris Bosh, LaMarcus Aldridge, most of the other high level bigs ... those types.

Ignoring the likes of Kobe and Dirk due to age.

I just don't think Wade belongs in the same conversation as the other ELITE players in the game anymore. I would laugh off a Wade for Rondo trade. He belongs somewhere in the mid-second tier after Rondo, Rose, and CP3.

To the OP, not a bad list, but I question your 17-21 selections, with the possible exception of Hibbert [Gortat??].

Lets not get carried away. A Wade for Rondo trade would instantly make the Celtics championship contenders and the favorite to win the title

  Lets not get carried away. Rondo was clearly the second best player in the Miami series.

That is too funny

Wade is better than Rondo offensively and defensively, and is clutch which Rondo is no where near clutch status
Rondo is better at passing though

Take away the Celtic hate for Wade being a whiny punk, and injuring Rondo's elbow. And that the fact that fans are relishing that he's playing horribly in the Finals. Wade is by far the better player

  Fans are relishing Wade playing horribly in the finals, just like they relished him being largely ineffective against the Celts and for about half the Pacers series.

  Rondo's received significantly more votes for all-defense teams in each of the last three seasons.

  Wade vs Celts, regular season: 20/4/5, .434 fg%, .000 3fg%
  Wade vs Celts, playoffs:  21/6/4, .444 fg%, .250 3fg%

  Rondo vs Heat, regular season: 19/8/14, .513 fg%, .500 3fg%
  Rondo vs Heat, playoffs: 21/7/11, .488 fg%, .300 3fg%

Those are all face value stats
Kobe got more 1st place all-defensive team votes than Battier, Bruce Bowen, and Ron Artest. Does it mean Kobe is a better defender then those 3? Yeah right

  Don't they vote for 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center? That means that Kobe wasn't really going head to head in voting with forwards, while Wade's been going head to head with Rondo (and losing handily).

First of all if you were watching the Heat-Celtics games, you would see the Celtics team doubling Wade on every possession. While Lebron roamed free with one on one coverage.

  I watched the Celtics-Heat games. Wade got doubled a lot, not on every single possession. In fact Rondo did a pretty good job of covering Wade 1v1. I think your opinion of the series was somewhat affected by the hyperbole from the announcers.

And even better, Rondo wasn't even guarded haha.

  Haha. In every playoff series the opposing coach talks about how important it is to contain Rondo on offense and how difficult that is to do. Clearly something's going on that you're missing.

And the opposite doesn't hold true saying if the Heat guard Rondo up close, he would burn them. Norris Cole who was just as quick as Rondo defended him up close and caused Rondo to be less effective. So Rondo had about 5 feet of space, of course had better stats than Wade

  First of all, even when players give space to Rondo they're trying to limit his passing ability, and Rondo's passing is more of an offensive contribution than a lot of player's scoring is. Secondly, Cole didn't cover Rondo a ton  and when he did Rondo was only a little less effective. He still got his assists, he shot worse but he took 5 times as many free throws per minute. Lastly, notice you're talking about a rookie pg doing well covering Rondo and not Wade, who frequently guarded Rondo when Rajon was *more* effective.

Wade is a better offensive player (which is obvious).

  Wade is a better scorer which is obvious. When you add in all of the easy buckets that Rondo gets his teammates with his passing and how he runs the offense, which one contributes more to an offense is up for debate.

And Wade is hands down a better defender, paint and perimeter. Gambling a couple steals in the passing lane from Rondo doesn't count

  Wade isn't hands down a better defender. Summarizing Rondo's contributions on defense with "Gambling a couple steals in the passing lane" is about as accurate as summarizing Wade's offense with "he drives to the hoop on occasion".

1. The defensive teams are just the 5 best defensive players
In 2005, the defensive 2nd team had Jason Kidd, Billups, and Wade.. all of them guards
 
And lets just look at the guards. You think Kobe is a better defender than Thabo Sefolosia and Kirk Hinrich? Thats funny

  The defensive teams are voted on by position, that may not have always been the case. You could argue that Kobe's a better defender than Hinrich but you also have to consider that he plays significantly more minutes than either of them and that generally factors into the voting.

2. How is Wade being doubled everytime a hyperbole from the announcers? Celtics doubled Wade hard in the first half, which showed why Wade was usually ineffective in the first half. Why the Celtics veered away from that in the second half i'll never know.. my point is that Wade was doubled, Rondo had 5 foot of air space because of his lack of jumpshots. You can look at the stats all day if you want, but that effects how you're able to score, that is very obvious.

  Wade being double teamed every time is hyperbole from the announcers because he *wasn't* doubled every time he had the ball. I notice you changed your claim from "every time he had the ball" to "in the first half" so clearly you noticed your claim was ridiculous. If you watched the first half closely enough you'd see that they doubled him some of the time but not all of the time even then.

I think you're using the coaches' cliches when they said "how hard it was to contain Rondo" but yet they make their team guard him 5 feet away giving him all that airspace. Cliches dont matter if its not practiced on the court

  Sometimes they give him a lot of space, sometimes they double him when he goes past a pick, sometimes they shadow him in the backcourt to keep the ball out of his hands. They try different ways to contain him because they realize what a great offensive player he is. They give him space when he's on the outside because they're more worried about his dribble penetration and his passing than his outside shot.

3. You're right Cole did not guard Rondo a bulk of the series. But notice in game 6 when Lebron went off for 45 points. Cole guarded Rondo in the 2nd and 3rd quarter I believe and caused Rondo to commit alot of turnovers. Like I said before, Cole is just as quick as Rondo and guarded him real close (hmmm kinda like how the Celtics did on Wade eh?). Cole slowed Rondo's speed, which in turn slowed the Celtics' offense. The offense in game 5 became as slow as mud, no movement at all. And like I always say, when Rondo is in a slowed down half court offense he doesn't perform that well

  Again, Cole was only on the court with Rondo for 2-4 minutes total in the 2nd and 3rd quarters of either of those games. What you're talking about never happened, or only happened for a couple of possessions a game.

4. Wade is a better scorer, which again is obvious. A better cutter, shooter, more athletic, one on one player, clutch shooter, etc... Rondo is not even in Wade's class on the offensive end

  Yes, Wade is a better scorer than Rondo. If your claim is that Wade's a better scorer, or your opinion of who's a better offensive player is based solely on who scores more you have a point. If you consider total impact on the offense (in other words, all the things that Rondo does to help the offense besides shooting the ball) then I disagree. Look at all the easy shots that Rondo gets KG, Ray, Paul and Bass. That's a big part of our *offense*.

5. Wade does everything BETTER than Rondo at the defensive end. Not saying Rondo isn't an awesome defender
Wade block shots better, rebounding is about equal, passing lane steals are even, better post defender, better one on one defender. Please don't let the green tinted glasses block the Wade sunlight lol

  Rondo got a couple more rebounds a game in the playoffs than Wade, and he has a higher steal% in both the regular season and the playoffs. Also, check with synergy, he gives up fewer points per possession to players that he guards than Wade does. Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument though. I think you've been staring directly at the Wade sunlight for too long and it's blinded you to what's really happening on the court. lol.

This is like watching your crazy ex girlfriend argue with her new boyfriend on Facebook.

Lol.  Osirus... Trust me on this, you can't win an argument with Tim about Rondo.  It's not that you're wrong...  it's just that he's utterly convinced that Rondo is the best player alive.  You have a better shot of going to a Justin Bieber forum and convincing the Beliebers that The Beatles were better.   

For what it's worth, I absolutely agree that a healthy Dwayne Wade is vastly superior to Rajon Rondo.  Age and injuries could potentially narrow that gap in the next 5 years.  Not because ROndo will suddenly become as good as Wade's ceiling... but because Wade could potentially regress due to nagging injuries and entering his 30s. 

Ahh you're right. The Rondo man-crush on Celticsblog is even bigger than I thought lol

And TP for the Gif
Sad to say there was actually a Bieber fan that said "Bieber is 10x better than Micheal Jackson". I just don't know where this world is coming to

[BballTim]

Ahh you're right. The Rondo man-crush on Celticsblog is even bigger than I thought lol

  Either that or some people actually watched the series closely enough to know that Wade didn't get doubled every time he touched the ball and that Cole must have somehow done most of what you described from his spot on the bench. lol.

[BballTim]

FYI it depends on your definition of "building around".  Presumably the younger the talent, the better shot you have of "building around" that talent for the future... which is why I honestly would trade Rondo straight up for Kyrie Irving without hesitation.  Irving is 19 years old.  I look at it like this... if I'm the Bobcats (a team without any talent) would I rather grab Rondo (about to be 27 years old and is in his prime) and waste his prime on a bad team... or grab Kyrie Irving... and have the next 7 years to build a capable team around him hopefully having everything "come together" as Irving enters his prime.  

  The risk with that is that before you finish building your team around Irving and before he gets to the point where he can lead a team through a strong playoff run he might decide that he wants to play for the Suns or the Lakers or the Knicks or the Nets.

[LarBrd33]

FYI it depends on your definition of "building around".  Presumably the younger the talent, the better shot you have of "building around" that talent for the future... which is why I honestly would trade Rondo straight up for Kyrie Irving without hesitation.  Irving is 19 years old.  I look at it like this... if I'm the Bobcats (a team without any talent) would I rather grab Rondo (about to be 27 years old and is in his prime) and waste his prime on a bad team... or grab Kyrie Irving... and have the next 7 years to build a capable team around him hopefully having everything "come together" as Irving enters his prime.  

  The risk with that is that before you finish building your team around Irving and before he gets to the point where he can lead a team through a strong playoff run he might decide that he wants to play for the Suns or the Lakers or the Knicks or the Nets.

True... and the risk with building a team right now around Rondo is that you could potentially fail to surround him with proper talent, the team could struggle with him as the top dog, he could potentially sulk and could potentially demand a trade to a contender within the next 3 years.  

Bottom line:  I'd trade Rondo straight-up for Irving right now without blinking.  I think Ainge would strongly consider trading Rondo straight-up for Irving if it was a possibility.  I don't think the Cavs at this point would ever consider trading Irving straight-up for Rondo.

That's not to say that Irving is better than Rondo right now.  If i'm trying to WIN RIGHT NOW, Rondo's probably my best bet.  But if i'm "building a team" around a player, it makes more sense to have a 19 year old potential superstar on his rookie contract... presuming that "building a team" is an actual process that takes time, luck and savvy moves... and we're not talking about drafting a fantasy basketball team.

To reiterate...Present this hypothetical to every GM in the league:  "Imagine that you were taking over the Bobcats actual roster immediately... You can either add Kyrie Irving and his contract... or add Rajon Rondo and his contract... which one do you pick to build around?" ... I might be way off base, but I think the vast majority of GMs would take Irving in that situation.

[BballTim]

FYI it depends on your definition of "building around".  Presumably the younger the talent, the better shot you have of "building around" that talent for the future... which is why I honestly would trade Rondo straight up for Kyrie Irving without hesitation.  Irving is 19 years old.  I look at it like this... if I'm the Bobcats (a team without any talent) would I rather grab Rondo (about to be 27 years old and is in his prime) and waste his prime on a bad team... or grab Kyrie Irving... and have the next 7 years to build a capable team around him hopefully having everything "come together" as Irving enters his prime.  

  The risk with that is that before you finish building your team around Irving and before he gets to the point where he can lead a team through a strong playoff run he might decide that he wants to play for the Suns or the Lakers or the Knicks or the Nets.

True... and the risk with building a team right now around Rondo is that you could potentially fail to surround him with proper talent, the team could struggle with him as the top dog, he could potentially sulk and could potentially demand a trade to a contender within the next 3 years.

  In other words, about as likely as him sulking away last season because of the CP3 trade rumors, which I kept hearing he was going to do before the season started. And if you can't build a team around Rondo you won't be able to build a team around Irving, and a star player on a rookie contract is a lot more likely to leave over that than a vet.

To reiterate...Present this hypothetical to every GM in the league:  "Imagine that you were taking over the Bobcats actual roster immediately... You can either add Kyrie Irving and his contract... or add Rajon Rondo and his contract... which one do you pick to build around?" ... I might be way off base, but I think the vast majority of GMs would take Irving in that situation.

  Rondo's 26, not 34. He's just coming into his prime. I'd bet most gms would take better for the next few years than better in the future (probably for the team's *next* gm).

[Celtics18]

FYI it depends on your definition of "building around".  Presumably the younger the talent, the better shot you have of "building around" that talent for the future... which is why I honestly would trade Rondo straight up for Kyrie Irving without hesitation.  Irving is 19 years old.  I look at it like this... if I'm the Bobcats (a team without any talent) would I rather grab Rondo (about to be 27 years old and is in his prime) and waste his prime on a bad team... or grab Kyrie Irving... and have the next 7 years to build a capable team around him hopefully having everything "come together" as Irving enters his prime.  

  The risk with that is that before you finish building your team around Irving and before he gets to the point where he can lead a team through a strong playoff run he might decide that he wants to play for the Suns or the Lakers or the Knicks or the Nets.

True... and the risk with building a team right now around Rondo is that you could potentially fail to surround him with proper talent, the team could struggle with him as the top dog, he could potentially sulk and could potentially demand a trade to a contender within the next 3 years.  

Bottom line:  I'd trade Rondo straight-up for Irving right now without blinking.  I think Ainge would strongly consider trading Rondo straight-up for Irving if it was a possibility.  I don't think the Cavs at this point would ever consider trading Irving straight-up for Rondo.

That's not to say that Irving is better than Rondo right now.  If i'm trying to WIN RIGHT NOW, Rondo's probably my best bet.  But if i'm "building a team" around a player, it makes more sense to have a 19 year old potential superstar on his rookie contract... presuming that "building a team" is an actual process that takes time, luck and savvy moves... and we're not talking about drafting a fantasy basketball team.

To reiterate...Present this hypothetical to every GM in the league:  "Imagine that you were taking over the Bobcats actual roster immediately... You can either add Kyrie Irving and his contract... or add Rajon Rondo and his contract... which one do you pick to build around?" ... I might be way off base, but I think the vast majority of GMs would take Irving in that situation.

We don't have to build our next contender from scratch.  We already have one of the best players in the league to build around. 

Would you say the same thing if we replaced Rondo's name with Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, or Deron Williams?