Rondo is ruining it for the Celtics

[BballTim]

And yes, the humor of "Rondo Infallibility" lives on on Celtics Blog. Kudos to the moderators for some even-handed analysis of the subject out front, but some of you are never going to admit that Rondo isn't the best point guard in the history of the game.

  Can you show me a single post where anyone ever claimed that Rondo was inarguably the best point guard in the history of the game? I guess the funniest posts are the ones nobody writes. Or maybe that's meant as hyperbole, like "he takes games, plays and sequences off with growing frequency".


 

[Vermont Green]

Any discussion of Rondo seems to get emotional.  I am on the glass half empty side of Rondo and I think it is fair to give him a high level of scrutiny when he doesn't play well.

That should be expected for any player who at times has been in the discussion as the:

• Best player in the league (MVP)
• Best PG in the league
• Best player on his team
• One of "big 4"

I personally don't think Rondo is any of the above yet and probably won't ever be but if a player has those types of expectations around them, and comes up well short in a big game, uber-scrutiny should be expected.

As for the game, the Heat were able to take him out of the game (Rondo did not really hurt the Heat) while at the same time not really covering him (his man off doubling KG or PP).  To me that is a sort of double negative that does not result in a positive.

[Celtics18]

Any discussion of Rondo seems to get emotional.  I am on the glass half empty side of Rondo and I think it is fair to give him a high level of scrutiny when he doesn't play well.

That should be expected for any player who at times has been in the discussion as the:

• Best player in the league (MVP)
• Best PG in the league
• Best player on his team
• One of "big 4"

I personally don't think Rondo is any of the above yet and probably won't ever be but if a player has those types of expectations around them, and comes up well short in a big game, uber-scrutiny should be expected.

As for the game, the Heat were able to take him out of the game (Rondo did not really hurt the Heat) while at the same time not really covering him (his man off doubling KG or PP).  To me that is a sort of double negative that does not result in a positive.

The first part of your post is completely fair.  The high degree of scrutiny is justified.  All up and coming star players go through that. 

Your assessment of the game itself is off, though, in my opinion.  I'll grant you that the Heat, and most other teams, have a tendency to sag off Rondo above the foul line to try to force him to be a jump shooter.  It's also true that the Heat, and most other teams, try to pack the paint against him because he's so dangerous when he gets in the lane (which, contrary to much popular belief,
he does a lot). 

I also think it's true that on the occasions where our offense looks really good, other guys on the team are making open jump shots.  The strategy of packing the paint to guard against Rondo is a large factor in creating those open jump shots.  When thats all clicking, it opens up more back door cuts for easy baskets. 

Unfortunately, when jump shots aren't falling consistently for our shooters like Ray Allen, Brandon Bass, Paul Pierce, and to a much lesser extent, Mickael Pietrus and Keyon Dooling, then our offense stagnates. 

So, I can see where one would make the argument that in these cases it's up to Rondo to take over more and get in the paint even more.  That's fair, but to say that he's not really being covered is a misguided simplification of what is actually happening with the team's offense. 

It's also true that generally when opposing coaches talk about the difficulty of playing the Celtics, the first guy that they mention as a threat is Rondo.  Maybe, they are just trying to butter him up as a psychological ploy, who knows.  It's also quite possible that they mean it. 

As to his prospective ranking as a player, I don't think he's the best player in the league.  I don't even think I'd put him top five.  Best point guard?  I don't know?  There are a few challengers.  Best player on the team?  I feel like a rational basketball analysis would have it as a close toss up between he and KG.  A member of "the big four"? Well, yeah, duh.

[twinbree]

Well I can agree that Rondo is ruining it for this Celtic fan. One of these days I will seriously hurt myself rolling my eyes in some of these Rondo threads. Honestly Rondo has his flaws which we've all discussed ad nauseum and can recite in our sleep. Knowing this I don't know why we want him to be some cray Russell/Cousy/Bird hybrid and get annoyed when he isn't.

Yesterday we lost for a lot of reasons and I wouldn't put Rondo on the top of that list. Our depth is so thin right now. And a couple of guys in the rotation need surgery. We've needed Herculean efforts from one of Pierce, KG or Rondo for most of our postseason wins. In this series, we'll need at least two maybe even all three of them to have big games to win. We have very little margin for error and yesterday too many things went wrong.

[Mr October]

Well I can agree that Rondo is ruining it for this Celtic fan. One of these days I will seriously hurt myself rolling my eyes in some of these Rondo threads. Honestly Rondo has his flaws which we've all discussed ad nauseum and can recite in our sleep. Knowing this I don't know why we want him to be some cray Russell/Cousy/Bird hybrid and get annoyed when he isn't.

Yesterday we lost for a lot of reasons and I wouldn't put Rondo on the top of that list. Our depth is so thin right now. And a couple of guys in the rotation need surgery. We've needed Herculean efforts from one of Pierce, KG or Rondo for most of our postseason wins. In this series, we'll need at least two maybe even all three of them to have big games to win. We have very little margin for error and yesterday too many things went wrong.

TP. Rondo can't be everything everyone wants him to be. He is what he is: a moody, inconsistent, high IQ, streaky player who, despite his inconsistency, still brings a lot more to the table than he takes away.

He's a gambler. Sometimes those passes and steals are brilliant, sometimes they result in a turnover and/or points for the other team.

Many things went wrong for the Celtics. I think it starts with their team defense. They need to close the paint. If Miami is going to beat them from the outside, so be it.

[blink]

I pretty much agree with this.  I am tired of so many thread flipping back and forth between Rondo is to blame for everything and Rondo is the MVP.  He obviously is one of our top two players, why anyone would even try to argue otherwise is silly.

I think the loss comes down to two main things.  Like you said, team d closing the paint to all those easy buckets for LJ and DW.  Overall though, I thought our D wasn't that bad.  It is going to require us to play at 95% of our potential to do much better.  Gotta be faster on the low post rotations to cut off the driving angles for LJ/ DW.  Make them  shoot jumpshots, and get them back out of the lane.  I am hoping we can hold the heat to 85 each game.  I think that will take a tremendous effort.  But with our O production so reduced, the only way we are going to win games is to slow the game down, get stops, win ugly.  We can't win a track meet.

The other part I think we need to improve on is just our execution on O.  That falls on all the guys on the court.  I am happy kg is making so many of those tough, fall away shots, but we aren't going to win the series with those type of shots.  We need to set better screens, move with out the ball, and play better fundamentally sound basketball on O to score more points.  We also need to vary the looks we are giving the heat.  put in a new wrinkle to disguise some of our plays.  we need to get easier looks somehow against the heats d.

Well I can agree that Rondo is ruining it for this Celtic fan. One of these days I will seriously hurt myself rolling my eyes in some of these Rondo threads. Honestly Rondo has his flaws which we've all discussed ad nauseum and can recite in our sleep. Knowing this I don't know why we want him to be some cray Russell/Cousy/Bird hybrid and get annoyed when he isn't.

Yesterday we lost for a lot of reasons and I wouldn't put Rondo on the top of that list. Our depth is so thin right now. And a couple of guys in the rotation need surgery. We've needed Herculean efforts from one of Pierce, KG or Rondo for most of our postseason wins. In this series, we'll need at least two maybe even all three of them to have big games to win. We have very little margin for error and yesterday too many things went wrong.

TP. Rondo can't be everything everyone wants him to be. He is what he is: a moody, inconsistent, high IQ, streaky player who, despite his inconsistency, still brings a lot more to the table than he takes away.

He's a gambler. Sometimes those passes and steals are brilliant, sometimes they result in a turnover and/or points for the other team.

Many things went wrong for the Celtics. I think it starts with their team defense. They need to close the paint. If Miami is going to beat them from the outside, so be it.

[BballTim]

Well I can agree that Rondo is ruining it for this Celtic fan. One of these days I will seriously hurt myself rolling my eyes in some of these Rondo threads. Honestly Rondo has his flaws which we've all discussed ad nauseum and can recite in our sleep. Knowing this I don't know why we want him to be some cray Russell/Cousy/Bird hybrid and get annoyed when he isn't.

Yesterday we lost for a lot of reasons and I wouldn't put Rondo on the top of that list. Our depth is so thin right now. And a couple of guys in the rotation need surgery. We've needed Herculean efforts from one of Pierce, KG or Rondo for most of our postseason wins. In this series, we'll need at least two maybe even all three of them to have big games to win. We have very little margin for error and yesterday too many things went wrong.

TP. Rondo can't be everything everyone wants him to be. He is what he is: a moody, inconsistent, high IQ, streaky player who, despite his inconsistency, still brings a lot more to the table than he takes away.

  I think if you watched any player with the preconceived notion that they're inconsistent and look for inconsistent play, you'll find it. LeBron scored 13 in the first and the Heat pulled ahead, he scored 4 in the second and the Celts came back. Wade scored 6 in the first half and 16 in the second half. When Rondo does that people call it wild inconsistency. When the rest of the stars in the league do it it generally goes unnoticed.

[OsirusCeltics]

Yup like I imagined how the thread would protect Rondo to the ends of the earth

When Pierce or Ray does bad, they get all the blame for the loss

When Rondo does bad its "Um well, the Miami defense changed up on him. Players weren't getting open"

In case you didn't know, Pierce is playing off of Rondo. The offense runs through Rondo as everyone can agree. So when Rondo doesn't get his other teammates involved by dribbling for a majority of the shot clock, it stagnates the offense
People bring up 5-18 for Pierce. Some of it was his fault obviously, but when you have a point guard that gives it to you at the end of the shot clock, its going to be a low percentage shot for Pierce. Look at the initial reaction instead of the end result (a missed shot or stats)

Alot of fans say Rondo is the best player on the Celtics, and the main reason of how the offense is run. So when he puts his teammates in bad positions with his turnovers, non-aggressiveness, and stagnating the offense with constant dribbling, its his teammates fault. You can't have it both ways

It didn't happen the way you saw it.  This is why when you are asked to point to examples of Rondo dribbling the ball at the top of the key for a majority of a possession before dishing to a teammate, you won't be able to do it.

I'm not saying that Rondo had a stellar game by his own standards.  He didn't.  But, he continues to be the best (or arguably second best) player on the Celtics team.  

He has to play better for the Celtics to have any chance of winning this series.  That I absolutely agree with, but he and Garnett and Pierce are going to need more help from the rest of his teammates.  

Again, please point to some possessions where Rondo dribbled the ball for a majority of the shot clock before dishing the ball to a teammate for a desperation last second shot.  Check the game tape.  I challenge you to find these possessions.

Because that is a trick question, I won't be baited into that
There were so many examples. Just watch the replay of that game in the 3rd quarter (Its always on NBA TV) and see for yourself
That trick question is like saying "point to a time where Ray Allen is running off screens"

If Paul Pierce would even DARE hold the ball for more than 10 seconds dribbling the ball, the whole thread would blast him for ruining the game for the Celtics. It'll be "Oh Pierce is playing that iso ball. Omg Pierce pass the ball. That iso ball never works, why is Doc allowing Pierce to do that??"

Falsity, falsity, falsity.  Please, just give me one single example of Rondo holding or dribbling the ball for more than 20 seconds (which you have amusingly now changed to 10).  I've watched a replay of the game, and it didn't happen.

You are wrong.  It's not a trick.  I don't blame you for refusing to be baited into backing up a claim that you can't back up due to its falseness.

I'm not blaming Pierce.  Yes, he struggled, but he's got a brutal match up, and I think he'll keep grinding and find ways to have a positive influence despite going head to head against the most dangerous player on the planet.  The red herrings are getting you nowhere.  The fact remains that your initial claim was false.  I've watched the tape to confirm that.  You're wrong.  Step up and admit it.

You obviously didn't watch the game, because he was doing that everytime walking the ball up and dribbling away the shot clock. Everytime except the shot clock

You can't be more wrong. Look I'll try one

How many time have you seen KG start trash talking and have a menacing look everytime he scores a basket? Pinpoint one time, cause I have never seen it...

[cltc5]

chris paul is sitting at home.

[OsirusCeltics]

chris paul is sitting at home.

THE CLIPPERS are sitting at home
Celtics >>>> Clippers

[Celtics18]

Yup like I imagined how the thread would protect Rondo to the ends of the earth

When Pierce or Ray does bad, they get all the blame for the loss

When Rondo does bad its "Um well, the Miami defense changed up on him. Players weren't getting open"

In case you didn't know, Pierce is playing off of Rondo. The offense runs through Rondo as everyone can agree. So when Rondo doesn't get his other teammates involved by dribbling for a majority of the shot clock, it stagnates the offense
People bring up 5-18 for Pierce. Some of it was his fault obviously, but when you have a point guard that gives it to you at the end of the shot clock, its going to be a low percentage shot for Pierce. Look at the initial reaction instead of the end result (a missed shot or stats)

Alot of fans say Rondo is the best player on the Celtics, and the main reason of how the offense is run. So when he puts his teammates in bad positions with his turnovers, non-aggressiveness, and stagnating the offense with constant dribbling, its his teammates fault. You can't have it both ways

It didn't happen the way you saw it.  This is why when you are asked to point to examples of Rondo dribbling the ball at the top of the key for a majority of a possession before dishing to a teammate, you won't be able to do it.

I'm not saying that Rondo had a stellar game by his own standards.  He didn't.  But, he continues to be the best (or arguably second best) player on the Celtics team.  

He has to play better for the Celtics to have any chance of winning this series.  That I absolutely agree with, but he and Garnett and Pierce are going to need more help from the rest of his teammates.  

Again, please point to some possessions where Rondo dribbled the ball for a majority of the shot clock before dishing the ball to a teammate for a desperation last second shot.  Check the game tape.  I challenge you to find these possessions.

Because that is a trick question, I won't be baited into that
There were so many examples. Just watch the replay of that game in the 3rd quarter (Its always on NBA TV) and see for yourself
That trick question is like saying "point to a time where Ray Allen is running off screens"

If Paul Pierce would even DARE hold the ball for more than 10 seconds dribbling the ball, the whole thread would blast him for ruining the game for the Celtics. It'll be "Oh Pierce is playing that iso ball. Omg Pierce pass the ball. That iso ball never works, why is Doc allowing Pierce to do that??"

Falsity, falsity, falsity.  Please, just give me one single example of Rondo holding or dribbling the ball for more than 20 seconds (which you have amusingly now changed to 10).  I've watched a replay of the game, and it didn't happen.

You are wrong.  It's not a trick.  I don't blame you for refusing to be baited into backing up a claim that you can't back up due to its falseness.

I'm not blaming Pierce.  Yes, he struggled, but he's got a brutal match up, and I think he'll keep grinding and find ways to have a positive influence despite going head to head against the most dangerous player on the planet.  The red herrings are getting you nowhere.  The fact remains that your initial claim was false.  I've watched the tape to confirm that.  You're wrong.  Step up and admit it.

You obviously didn't watch the game, because he was doing that everytime walking the ball up and dribbling away the shot clock. Everytime except the shot clock

You can't be more wrong. Look I'll try one

How many time have you seen KG start trash talking and have a menacing look everytime he scores a basket? Pinpoint one time, cause I have never seen it...

Do you still contend that Rondo was dribbling the ball for more than 20 seconds at the top of the key on any possessions in last nights game?  That never happened.  That's not hyperbole.  That's fact.  Sometimes facts are nice to use when making arguments. 

Whether or not KG scowls after a made bucket has nothing to do with it.

[OmarSekou]

I usually hop on these threads (this will probably be my last time) because they are generally ridiculous.

I'm not claiming Rondo is infallible, but I am claiming that he's not "ruining it for the Celtics" or the sole reason for each of our losses.

There are legitimate Rondo haters. We lose, it's his fault. We win, he could've played better. It's different from everyone else because people go to great lengths to attack him even when he's playing well. Every wrong decision looks obvious in hindsight. Every right decision could have been a better one.

Rondo has flaws. He gets too passive and over thinks things. He gets moody and down on himself. He looks disinterested or doesn't hustle at times. He's a poor shooter. He gets into it with the refs. And so on.

But you have to acknowledge what's happening in the game. If the "bad Rondo" is the second best player on our team on a given night, then maybe he's pretty good even on off nights. There's a difference between Rondo needing to play better, Rondo playing okay, Rondo playing poorly, and Rondo ruining things.

I have him as the first or second one. Rondo needs to elevate his game. If he can't...we lose, but I don't think all the blame should go on his shoulders if that happens. He can't be the only one expected to play to the best of his ability.

We're a team. If everyone else steps up and does their part, and only Rondo plays poorly actually causing us to lose, then I'll consider the OP's position. I bet Rondo will come out and say it himself.

[Celtics18]

I usually hop on these threads (this will probably be my last time) because they are generally ridiculous.

I'm not claiming Rondo is infallible, but I am claiming that he's not "ruining it for the Celtics" or the sole reason for each of our losses.

There are legitimate Rondo haters. We lose, it's his fault. We win, he could've played better. It's different from everyone else because people go to great lengths to attack him even when he's playing well. Every wrong decision looks obvious in hindsight. Every right decision could have been a better one.

Rondo has flaws. He gets too passive and over thinks things. He gets moody and down on himself. He looks disinterested or doesn't hustle at times. He's a poor shooter. He gets into it with the refs. And so on.

But you have to acknowledge what's happening in the game. If the "bad Rondo" is the second best player on our team on a given night, then maybe he's pretty good even on off nights. There's a difference between Rondo needing to play better, Rondo playing okay, Rondo playing poorly, and Rondo ruining things.

I have him as the first or second one. Rondo needs to elevate his game. If he can't...we lose, but I don't think all the blame should go on his shoulders if that happens. He can't be the only one expected to play to the best of his ability.

We're a team. If everyone else steps up and does their part, and only Rondo plays poorly actually causing us to lose, then I'll consider the OP's position. I bet Rondo will come out and say it himself.

TP.

[The Rondo Show]

I think he wants a trade. He has been dogging it all year long and has become a complete headcase.

Dogging it all year, but leading the league in APG and triple doubles?

[BballTim]

I think he wants a trade. He has been dogging it all year long and has become a complete headcase.

Dogging it all year, but leading the league in APG and triple doubles?

  Absolutely. Any point guard in the league will put up a triple double as long as they don't have their head in the game. Hint: if you're looking for a sure sign of a lack of effort, it's the 6'1 guy getting 8-9 rebounds in the game. That's an obvious lack of hustle.