Should On-Court/Field/Ice Incidences Allow for Criminal Charges? When? How?

[angryguy77]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

kudos to roger goodell...he did not idly sit by and do nothing...

stern and his cronies should follow suit...

i'm sorry...i forgot...football is a different sport...so...it doesn't count...

First, I'm pretty sure Edmund Burke never said that.

Second, Roger Goodell has never to my knowledge advocated prosecuting players criminally for on the field actions. Even with the Saints bounty scandal, the NFL is not advocating pressing criminal charges against any players, and they're not advocating pressing charges on any of the coaches, unless I missed a critical news release.

When Albert Haynesworth stomped on Andre Guode's head, was he criminally prosecuted? Goodell didn't think so then.

Is that you Mr Hastings?

[indeedproceed]

not bad...too bad you still miss the point...

I didn't miss your point, I just don't think its a valid point here. The NBA hasn't had a remotely close to fatal or grievous injury from a dirty intentional play like the NHL had with Bertuzzi. Its not really an applicable comparison.

EDIT: Sorry, they had one, Kermit Washington's sucker-punch of Rudy T. But nothing in the modern era, and the game is only becoming less physical, not more.

[rutzan]

there will be a next time..i guarantee it...there is always a next time...the news is filled with stories every day of people saying i can't believed it happened...then...it is just woulda, coulda and shoulda...

btw...i would be very curious to see your discourse and dissertation and distinction of what validity is...especially as it pertains to logic...because...you are assuming and pre-supposing and self-administering and self-appointing your viewpoint as the basis and definition of validity...when...in fact...it is really just your opinion...


there is a huge difference between opinion...what is a statement of fact...and...determining logically the basis and grounds for actually testing validity

case in point...

one of the oldest riddles in the world..

red crayons sing better than blue crayons...blue crayons sing better than white crayons...so...red crayons sing better than white crayons...

is it valid...yes..

is it logical...no...

crayons do not sing...

so the problem lies is someone saying that crayons sing in the first place...

if you can unilaterally state that without equivocation...then...there is no discussion because that nullifies any other point of view by stating that crayons sing as a statement of fact...

[Donoghus]

In hockey, yes. 

Guys are basically carrying weapons on the ice.  If a guy goes McSorley on someone with their stick in a deliberate and intent-to-injure way, then I think you should allow for criminal charges.

I guess that would go for baseball if someone decided to use the bat as a weapon too. 

I haven't really ever seen anything in the NBA that has ever been/would be of that level.

[indeedproceed]

there will be a next time..i guarantee it...there is always a next time...the news is filled with stories every day of people saying i can't believed it happened...then...it is just woulda, coulda and shoulda...

btw...i would be very curious to see your discourse and dissertation and distinction of what validity is...especially as it pertains to logic...because...you are assuming and pre-supposing and self-administering and self-appointing your viewpoint as the basis and definition of validity...when...in fact...it is really just your opinion...


there is a huge difference between opinion...what is a statement of fact...and...determining logically the basis and grounds for actually testing validity

Yeah alright, I'll take the logic grenade. Valid was not the right word.

The right words were relevant, or sensible. The point was not relevant or sensible.

The point as I understood it, was somehow that 'evil' men (cheap players) would continue to escalate their antics until reaching a point of grievous bodily harm unless good men took firm and decisive action, including but not limited to criminal charges for examples like Pittman or Artest's flagrant fouls.

And to that end I don't think its a strong point at all. The NBA, by and large, has shown a willingness to suspend players for cheap shots. They've, by and large, put rules and officials in place with the proper training so that things don't escalate to the point of grievous bodily harm like say, Todd Bertuzzi's incident in 2004. In fact, you even insinuated that fatalities could be in the offering.

And to that point, aside from Rudy T, I can't think of another example (although there has got to be one) where a player was grievously injured in an NBA game by another player intentionally in a malicious and plainly dirty play. Let alone someone dying, in the entire history of the sport.

Now look at football, or hockey, where fatalities have occurred. Basketball is a different game. There isn't a double-standard, because there isn't enough correlation.

[bdm860]

I guess that would go for baseball if someone decided to use the bat as a weapon too. 

Jose Offerman, after being sentenced to 2 years probation, agrees.

[rutzan]

hands and feet can be just as lethal of a weapon as a stick or bat...the bottomline...when is enough enough...where do you draw the line...for every action there is a reaction...there is definitely a correlation between the severity of the Metta World War ruling...or...lack thereof...the message obviously was not heard or not clear...

[Donoghus]

I guess that would go for baseball if someone decided to use the bat as a weapon too. 

Jose Offerman, after being sentenced to 2 years probation, agrees.

Exactly.  Something like this should certainly open the doors for criminal charges.

[rutzan]

waiting for the next "Malice in the Palace" to happen before doing anything and just doing nothing in the meantime is not in the best interest of anybody...

[MBz]

In baseball and hockey any time someone takes the bat/stick intentionally to someone they should be charged.  Football is tough, but I think the bounty gate guys should be charged.  At least I feel like Williams and Vilma should be charged, I'm sure theres some sort of conspiracy charge they could use.

[wdleehi]

In hockey, yes. 

Guys are basically carrying weapons on the ice.  If a guy goes McSorley on someone with their stick in a deliberate and intent-to-injure way, then I think you should allow for criminal charges.

I guess that would go for baseball if someone decided to use the bat as a weapon too. 

I haven't really ever seen anything in the NBA that has ever been/would be of that level.

Agree.  Men with sticks to take a whack at someone is different then flagrant foul. 


Not to mention the skates.

[indeedproceed]

waiting for the next "Malice in the Palace" to happen before doing anything and just doing nothing in the meantime is not in the best interest of anybody...

This is where you're wrong. They 'did' a lot. Just ask Amare Stoudemire. Its likely the Suns lost a shot at a chip because of what Stern 'did' following the Malice In The Palace.

And these hard fouls, like the fouls of Haslem on Hansbrough, or the foul on Wade from Hansbrough, those were pretty commonplace 25 years ago. Today, we're debating whether they merit suspension.

Heck even the Dexter Pittman foul, was it more or less severe than this cheap shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r6vXeOfyQ

Pittman will almost undoubtedly get a suspension for that, and don't be too surprised if refs are just absolutely going overboard with the whistles in game 6.

I mean its 100% true the NBA gets some calls wrong, issues fines when there should be no fines, or issues a weaker suspension than we think is deserved, if they issue one at all.

But as a complete product, the league (and to a large part the nature of the game) is pretty good at keeping the cheap shots as harmless as possible.

[Who]

I think fist-fights are fair game for criminal proceedings. Not fouls though.

[contramundum]

hands and feet can be just as lethal of a weapon as a stick or bat...the bottomline...when is enough enough...where do you draw the line...for every action there is a reaction...there is definitely a correlation between the severity of the Metta World War ruling...or...lack thereof...the message obviously was not heard or not clear...

In general enough is enough when there is a weapon involved.  A punch here and there, intentionally wild flailing arms and elbows, all of that could possibly inflict great harm.  But if you deliberately take up a weapon and swing, that is a whole different level of violent.  I agree with IP on this one, if you bring the law into basketball where would it end?  Would Robert Parish have went to jail for what he did to Bill Laimbeer?  Mchale to Rambis?  I believe that professional sports should police themselves unless there is murderous intent with the tools to do so murderous actions.  Heck, we police our own pick up games.

Fighting is a part of Hockey, no big deal.  Bone crushing hits in hockey and football, also no big deal.  If you let the law in on this then I could see laywers getting involved if a hit is "too extreme" or a consensual hockey brawl turns one sided and someone loses some more teeth.  These are consenting adults playing a sport for entertainment.  Let these guys take the risk in the wild wild west of pro sports and make their millions. 

With that said I like when the league hands out heavy handed suspensions for cheap shots, especially for any Miami or Laker players.

[action781]

I guess that would go for baseball if someone decided to use the bat as a weapon too. 

Jose Offerman, after being sentenced to 2 years probation, agrees.

Exactly.  Something like this should certainly open the doors for criminal charges.

I understand the difference, but it is pretty ironic to think of this as having grounds for criminal charges, but throwing a baseball 90mph at somone's head, who is completely vulnerable at the time, is not.  Sports are dangerous.