It's a myth that Ray wasn't a major part of post-allstar Celtics -- Proof inside

[Senninsage]

I find it beyond silly that some are trying to deny that Ray Allen was a significant part of this team's second half of the season resurgence as a top squad, and I'm going to finally put this nonsense to rest.

These are ALL the games after All-Star Break.

1 -- Ray Allen vs Cavs = 22 points = win 4/8 from 3
2 -- Ray Allen vs bucks = 15 points = win
3 -- Ray Allen vs Nets did not play. = win
4 -- Ray Allen vs Knicks = 12 points = win
5 -- Ray Allen vs Rockets = 21 points = win
6 -- Ray Allen vs 76ers = 2 points (Celts blowout loss 71-103)
7 -- Ray Allen vs Blazkers = 22 points = win
8 -- Ray Allen vs Lakers = 17 points = loss
9 -- Ray Allen vs Clippers = 15 points = win

Ray was injured in that last, exciting win against the Clippers and tried playing through it anyway after that. It was called by many on this very forum our best win of the season.

10 -- Ray Allen vs Warriors = 7 points = win
11 -- Ray Allen vs Kings = 26 points = Celts blown out by 25

Not ray's fault in that game.

12 -- Ray Allen vs Nuggets = 7 points = celts lose by 8
13 -- Ray Allen vs Hawks = 19 points = win
14 -- Ray Allen vs Bucks = 6 points = win
15 -- did not play against 76ers, celtics lose by 13

That was the game where pietrus hurt himself. Bradley also hurt his ankle in that game.

So far, all that we've been seeing of the resurgent Celtics is Ray Allen still as a starter and the team is playing great basketball.

16 -- Ray Allen did not play, this is Bradley's first game as a starter after the All-Star break. Bradley scores 23 points. Celts beat wizards.

17 -- Ray Allen did not play, bradley scores 11, the celts beat the bobcats.

18 -- Ray Allen does not play, bradley scores 9, Celts beat Jazz.

19 -- Ray Allen did not play, bradley scores 17, celts beat timberwolves.

20 -- Ray Allen did not play, bradley scores 13, celts blowout heat.

21 -- Ray Allen vs Spurs = 5 points for Ray, Bradley led Celts with 19 off bench = Celts lose by one point.

22 -- Ray Allen vs Bulls = 14 points off the bench, bradley scores 9 as a starter = celts lose by 7

23 -- Ray Allen vs Pacers = 19 for Ray off the bench, 4 for bradley as a starter, Celtics win 86-72

24 -- Ray Allen vs 76ers = Ray scores 10 off the bench, Bradley scores 18 as a starter = Celtics destroy 76ers 103-79

25 -- Ray Allen vs Heat =  9 for Ray off the bench, 11 for Bradley as a starter. Ray was also +6 to Bradley's -1 in this game.

26 -- Ray Allen did not play against hawks, bradley scores 7, was -13 for game, celtics win in OT.

27 -- Ray Allen did not play against Raptors. Bradley scores 15, Celts lose.

28 -- Ray Allen did not play vs nets, Bradley scores 18 + hits three 3 pointers, Celts win.

29 -- Ray Allen did not play against Bobcats, Bradley scores 22 points, Celts win.

30 -- Ray Allen did not play against knicks, Bradley scores 17, Celts lose, giving up 118 points.

31 -- Ray Allen did not play against the Magic, Bradley scores 23, Celts win.

32 -- Celts rests stars this one, Bradley becomes #1 option, he scores 28 points, Celts bench barely lose to Hawks starters.

33 -- Ray Allen did not play against Heat, Heat rest Wade, Lebron, Bosh, Bradley scores 8 points, Celts win.

34 -- Ray Allen did not play against the Bucks, Bradley scores 14, Celts win.


And there you have it, Bradley had a number of great games, but Ray Allen was a significant part of the Celtics second half surge all the way towards the #4 seed. It's even arguable that if we had Ray in more of these games, the Celtics would have won. This idea that we just started being a great team again when Ray went to the bench, or was injured, is a total joke. Ray played in big games for us and got it done. As big as Bradley has been, Ray is still good enough to start for this team. I don't mind Bradley starting, and think it's good for us, but people have to also realize that Ray being a starter has serious benefits as well. I think it makes our offense better. And while Bradley might have his defensive advantages on Ray, Ray can play good defense, too. They are both better at specific things. Ray isn't as good at discouraging three point shooters from jacking right over him. Ray's size discourages the shot more often, making them more uncomfortable.

[goCeltics]

don't think the paul and ray combination at the 2 and 3 works, when paul is playing with kevin they should be able to get enough offense and play a role player at the 2 that can contribute defensivley or rebounding wise. Paul and Ray overlap in their strengths (scoring) and also their relative weakness (reboundng) expecially since paul has gotten older.

[Senninsage]

I'm not implying we get rid of Bradley out of the starting lineup because I don't like the guy. I think he's fantastic. However, it might just be the case that we have to think more of the match-ups and the consequences of NOT having Ray in there. I don't think it's a coincidence that in the game Ray starts, Bass has his best game of the entire playoffs. I'm not crediting Ray with all of it, but his presence was a tremendous part of it.

Ray demands respect out there, more so than Bradley on the mid-range or three point shot, and it allowed Bass the space he needed to get some of the looks that he got, and to get inside for some of the plays that he did because the 76er players couldn't help like they maybe wanted to, because Ray is a constant danger out there. It's not a matter of simply stretching the floor, it's the other team believing that if this guy is open, he will singlehandedly cause us to lose this game.

That's what Ray does for these Celtics. Bass I think can be far better with Ray in there as a starter than with Bradley. Bradley can still impact the game off the bench, too, and he has proved that. I'm just saying that the playoffs about about adjustments, and it can be so [dang] easy to forget just how valuable someone like Ray being in the starting lineup truly is.

[lightspeed5]

there are pros and cons to having both avery and ray start.

[Senninsage]

there are pros and cons to having both avery and ray start.

Exactly! And this is all I'm saying. I just want people to keep in mind that the Celtics' defense was top notch all season long when Ray was starting. The defense didn't suddenly become better when Bradley started playing. Our defense benefited in new ways, and we began getting off to some better starts, but we've been good both defensively as well as offensively with Ray Allen as well.

However, playoffs are about adjustments, and, depending on the situation, Ray being in the starting lineup might not exactly be a bad idea, especially if it benefits players like Bass and our offensive options as much as it did today. People far too easily forget that Ray Allen is still a starter caliber player in this league. He's a three point guy, but people so often forget that he has plenty of skill in other places, too.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I'm not implying we get rid of Bradley out of the starting lineup because I don't like the guy. I think he's fantastic. However, it might just be the case that we have to think more of the match-ups and the consequences of NOT having Ray in there. I don't think it's a coincidence that in the game Ray starts, Bass has his best game of the entire playoffs. I'm not crediting Ray with all of it, but his presence was a tremendous part of it.

Ray demands respect out there, more so than Bradley on the mid-range or three point shot, and it allowed Bass the space he needed to get some of the looks that he got, and to get inside for some of the plays that he did because the 76er players couldn't help like they maybe wanted to, because Ray is a constant danger out there. It's not a matter of simply stretching the floor, it's the other team believing that if this guy is open, he will singlehandedly cause us to lose this game.

That's what Ray does for these Celtics. Bass I think can be far better with Ray in there as a starter than with Bradley. Bradley can still impact the game off the bench, too, and he has proved that. I'm just saying that the playoffs about about adjustments, and it can be so [dang] easy to forget just how valuable someone like Ray being in the starting lineup truly is.

Not buying it... I would if Bass had been playing that great at the start of the game but he wasn't... Bass got 18 of his 27pts in the 3rd quarter! Bass' shot had started to come around 2 games ago and people were absolutely calling Doc crazy for not putting Bass back in last game because of how well he was shooting it (Doc said it himself), AB started that game! Bass had been shooting the ball well ALL season no matter who started also!

I'm not saying Ray isn't a vital piece but coming off the bench is exactly what we need if AB is healthy! Defense wins championships plain and simple... AB helps to get us off to better starts consistently with his defense (takes a lot of the defensive pressure off RR)... then Ray comes in with basically our only way to get points from the bench and adds to the leads.

[RockinRyA]

he is being payed a lot to play more than just a decoy, which is sadly, what he just is right now. And I agree, bass has been playing like this whether it was with ray or not. This is a particularly weak argument because bas has been consistent all throughout our streaks. This is just like your argument in the game thread that he is playing good defense and your sole evidence was when he forced the backcourt violation.

He clearly cost us game 4 (although he was not alone), was a big part of our game 2 win. But at this point Id want him on a short leash. If he clearly doesn't have it let's not force feed him minutes because he is useless out there when not hitting his shots.

[Celtics4ever]

There are more games where Ray was not a factor post all star than  ones were he really pitched in though.  You list 9 games but there were 25 total.

I clearly recall some games where Ray added pop off the bench and shot well.   But we live in something called "the present". He had five points last night.   Anyone who doesn't think this injury has hurt his game and his shot is a dang fool.  He has been part of big time defensive lapses and his shot has left him.   I know he is hurt and it's a brave showing.   But right now he is what he is and that is damaged goods, same is true of Avery.

[scaryjerry]

Okay obviously you have a ray thing going on, which is fine...I think we all like ray here...
Bradley should start when healthy, period.

[Senninsage]

Nope, I say this because a lot of people seem to not realize how important certain players on this team are, and, if left up to them, the Celtics would be out of the playoffs already.

People were badmouthing Bass, saying how terrible he was. He plays a monster game, all of a sudden people are back on the bandwagon. People were saying how horrible Pierce was, and that Pierce should be benched. All of a sudden people hop back on the bandwagon when he steps his game up.

People were dissing Hollins the very moment he got to the team, saying how useless he is and how Stiemsma should be in there instead. But nobody seemed to have been taking notice of the fact that Hollins benefited us in very specific way against the Hawks in ways that Stiemsma didn't. He even flat out saved us a number of games, and we likely wouldn't be as far as we are now without a little help from Hollins along the way.

This isn't just a Ray thing. I've done a similar thing about Keyon Dooling, about Pavlovic. I've even done it for Bradley. The point I'm trying to get across is some people are way too [dang] reactionary and jump to conclusions. Insult and talk down Ray's contributions all you guys want, but we wouldn't even be this far right now if he didn't come back in the Hawks series, and you can bank on that.