Rondo for Pau Gasol trade revisited

[butterbeanlove]

First time I heard this idea I thought it was worse than Perk for etc.

But then I read some analysis that pointed out that the playoffs are a half-court slog.

And Rondo disappears in the fourth quarter frequently.

And... just as Gasol learned the triangle in LA quickly, he and KG would be a devastating 4-5 passing combo.

We'll never know, but it wasn't as crazy an idea as I first thought.

[KCattheStripe]

My opinion:  Point guards don't win titles.  Big men do.

And yet you want to sign Deron Williams to a max contact.

[LarBrd33]

First time I heard this idea I thought it was worse than Perk for etc.

But then I read some analysis that pointed out that the playoffs are a half-court slog.

And Rondo disappears in the fourth quarter frequently.

And... just as Gasol learned the triangle in LA quickly, he and KG would be a devastating 4-5 passing combo.

We'll never know, but it wasn't as crazy an idea as I first thought.

We also don't know what kind of follow-up moves Ainge would make to round out our roster.  I had heard something about Jose Calderon being available, for instance.  PG - Calderon, SG - Bradley/Ray, SF - Pierce, PF - KG, C - Pau is the title favorite if you ask me.  No team could match that inside/outside potential.  Dominant big men win titles... we'd have two.  Then the shooting we'd have surrounding them would be ridiculous.

[LarBrd33]

My opinion:  Point guards don't win titles.  Big men do.

And yet you want to sign Deron Williams to a max contact.

That's an idea.  I like Deron over Rondo, because Deron does everything Rondo does... but is bigger and a far better shooter/scorer.  Deron is just a better player.  Period.  Obviously wouldn't be the end-all move.  You don't simply win a title with Deron Williams by himself and you sure as heck don't simply win a title with Rondo by himself.   But you're leaving out the key part of my Deron Williams pipe dream... if you signed him to the Celtics you'd then be able to move Rondo to the highest bidder.  Ultimate fantasy is landing Dwight HOward for Rondo, both our first rounders + whatever else Orlando wants...

Also the only reason I mention Deron is because he's BY FAR the best unrestricted free agent this offseason and we happen to have cap space.  If our MVP Kevin Garnett retires... I'm not sure how else we could make an immediate impact this offseason.  

[snively]

Pau is much better than he's shown.  He's playing out of position at the 4 and filling an ill-suited role as a floor-spacer/facilitator for Kobe and Bynum post-ups. 

As an offensive hub working mostly out of the low-post (with an occasional pick and pop) with occasional duty as a high post passer on a team with good spacing he'd be just as deadly as he was a few years ago.

That said, wouldn't deal Rondo for him with the Big 3's ages and the size of his contract.

[BballTim]

meh.  Fair to say that even with BballTim's opinions... we can settle on the fact that we simply don't know how this team would play with Pau Gasol.  Thread is based on a shaky premise.  We have a 22-13 record when our 3rd best player (Rondo) doesn't play.  Fair to say that if we added arguably the most talented big man in the game (Pau Gasol) to that 22-13 team... we'd improve on that 22-13 record.    

  I think how the team fares in the playoffs is somewhat more important than our regular season record with and without individual players. In the playoffs, over the last 4 years, we're 31-22 with an average margin of +2 ppg. PP has been out of the game for 528 minutes in those games, we score even with our opponents when he's out. When KG's been out of the game we've been outscored by about 2 points per 48 minutes. When Rondo's out of the game we've been outscored by just over 9 points a game.

  Doing out the math on Rondo, we're roughly 14 points per game worse in the playoffs when he's out of the game. To put it another way, if Gasol was here instead of Rondo his positive impact on the games when he played would have to be twice as much as KG's in order to break even on the deal.

[slamdunk]

no. this trade makes no sense.

we have 10 years left of the best point guard in the game   or 3-4 years of pau gasol?

gasol isnt who he used to be.

When did we acquire Chris Paul?

[lightspeed5]

no. this trade makes no sense.

we have 10 years left of the best point guard in the game   or 3-4 years of pau gasol?

gasol isnt who he used to be.

When did we acquire Chris Paul?

i said best point guard, not best flopper

[azzenfrost]

I just had to say... lol

[Army_of_One_Nation]

Can we make that Marc Gasol instead?

[BostonArizona]

Would still pull the trigger on this trade. Still no downside IMO.

Rondo's awesome. Probably my favorite NBA player, but Gasol next to Garnett has best front court in the NBA written all over it.

Especially with Bradley stepping up, I'm sure he could provide at the very least what Rondo provided in 08 if not more.

I'd say that a lineup of:
Bradley/Dooling
Ray/Pietrus/Quis
Pierce/Sasha
KG/Bass
Gasol/Stiemsma
might be the best starting 5 in the game THIS YEAR and we retain good depth.

Going forward we still have tons of cap room and if we REALLY want to dump the Gasol money we pick up, he's not a hard player to trade. Many teams want him and would be willing to give young pieces for him.

Overall Gasol would most likely fetch more in a trade than Rondo would.

[j804]

no. this trade makes no sense.

we have 10 years left of the best point guard in the game   or 3-4 years of pau gasol?

gasol isnt who he used to be.

When did we acquire Chris Paul?

i said best point guard, not best flopper

[Celtics18]

My opinion:  Point guards don't win titles.  Big men do.

And yet you want to sign Deron Williams to a max contact.

That's an idea.  I like Deron over Rondo, because Deron does everything Rondo does... but is bigger and a far better shooter/scorer.  Deron is just a better player.  Period.  Obviously wouldn't be the end-all move.  You don't simply win a title with Deron Williams by himself and you sure as heck don't simply win a title with Rondo by himself.   But you're leaving out the key part of my Deron Williams pipe dream... if you signed him to the Celtics you'd then be able to move Rondo to the highest bidder.  Ultimate fantasy is landing Dwight HOward for Rondo, both our first rounders + whatever else Orlando wants...

Also the only reason I mention Deron is because he's BY FAR the best unrestricted free agent this offseason and we happen to have cap space.  If our MVP Kevin Garnett retires... I'm not sure how else we could make an immediate impact this offseason.  

Sure Deron Williams does everything Rondo does, but Rondo does quite a bit of it better like passing, rebounding and playing defense.  Williams shoots better from the perimeter and scores more points.

I don't know if you find playing D, rebounding, and passing to be irrelevant, and shooting the basketball to be the only skill that has any significance, but it sure seems that way.

[LarBrd33]

meh.  Fair to say that even with BballTim's opinions... we can settle on the fact that we simply don't know how this team would play with Pau Gasol.  Thread is based on a shaky premise.  We have a 22-13 record when our 3rd best player (Rondo) doesn't play.  Fair to say that if we added arguably the most talented big man in the game (Pau Gasol) to that 22-13 team... we'd improve on that 22-13 record.    

  I think how the team fares in the playoffs is somewhat more important than our regular season record with and without individual players. In the playoffs, over the last 4 years, we're 31-22 with an average margin of +2 ppg. PP has been out of the game for 528 minutes in those games, we score even with our opponents when he's out. When KG's been out of the game we've been outscored by about 2 points per 48 minutes. When Rondo's out of the game we've been outscored by just over 9 points a game.

  Doing out the math on Rondo, we're roughly 14 points per game worse in the playoffs when he's out of the game. To put it another way, if Gasol was here instead of Rondo his positive impact on the games when he played would have to be twice as much as KG's in order to break even on the deal.

Brotha you're reachin.  We've never lost a playoff game with Rondo as a DNP.  

I'm done arguing with you.  You bring up quirky stats as some means of proving ... something.  Actually... not even sure what you're proving?  That Rondo is great?  I agree.  He's a great point guard.  Top 5 in the NBA most definitely.  I still see the logic in taking a dominant big man over him... especially when it seems he's our 3rd most valuable player and the team coincidentally seems to rack up wins without him.

The premise of this thread is that we somehow dodged a bullet by not trading Rondo for Pau.  I disagree.  I'm not certain we'd be better... but I can see the logic in acquiring the most skilled big man in the league and putting him next to Garnett (the best player on this team) for one last title run.  Two 7 foot extremely skilled champions next to each other probably makes us the title favorites.  I can see how the benefits of adding Gasol could outweigh the benefits of having a really really good passer who can't shoot.  With Gasol we'd be a matchup nightmare for most teams.  Who could stop our interior presence?  It's intriguing.  Not as simple as, "lol gasol had one bad game I told you so guise"  

For what it's worth... I wouldn't have made the trade.  Mostly because I didn't want to see Rondo playing on the Lakers and I know the only reason they wanted to bring him in was so they could trade for Dwight Howard and convince him to sign an extension.  Not a fan of seeing Dwight and Rondo on the Lakers for the next 10 years.

[LarBrd33]

My opinion:  Point guards don't win titles.  Big men do.

And yet you want to sign Deron Williams to a max contact.

That's an idea.  I like Deron over Rondo, because Deron does everything Rondo does... but is bigger and a far better shooter/scorer.  Deron is just a better player.  Period.  Obviously wouldn't be the end-all move.  You don't simply win a title with Deron Williams by himself and you sure as heck don't simply win a title with Rondo by himself.   But you're leaving out the key part of my Deron Williams pipe dream... if you signed him to the Celtics you'd then be able to move Rondo to the highest bidder.  Ultimate fantasy is landing Dwight HOward for Rondo, both our first rounders + whatever else Orlando wants...

Also the only reason I mention Deron is because he's BY FAR the best unrestricted free agent this offseason and we happen to have cap space.  If our MVP Kevin Garnett retires... I'm not sure how else we could make an immediate impact this offseason.  

Sure Deron Williams does everything Rondo does, but Rondo does quite a bit of it better like passing, rebounding and playing defense.  Williams shoots better from the perimeter and scores more points.

I don't know if you find playing D, rebounding, and passing to be irrelevant, and shooting the basketball to be the only skill that has any significance, but it sure seems that way.

No.  I think in the right system and teammates, Deron WIlliams has the capacity to be an excellent rebounder and defender.  He's got size on the majority of point guards in the league.  I think all-around he's an upgrade over Rondo.  Deron is Probably the 2nd best point guard in the league behind Chris Paul.  Him or Rose, I guess.  In the past some have argued (somewhat convincingly) that Williams was better than Chris Paul.  He's top 3 for sure.  Rondo's great in his own right, but not on the level of those guys.  People take that as me hating Rondo.  Not true.  I love Rondo.  I love Paul Pierce too (named my cat after him), but that's not going to stop me from admitting he's nowhere near LeBron's level.  I love Ray, but that's not going to stop me from admitting he's not on Kobe's level.  I loved Big Al when he played here too, but it didn't stop me from admitting he was nowhere near Kevin Garnett's level.  It is what it is.  

There are really really good players... and then there are great players.  When in comes to Pau Gasol, I'm in the camp that he's one of the best players in the entire game.  Last year, statistically, he was top 5.  This year he 8th.   That's impressive when you consider what Pau's role is on the Lakers now that Bynum has asserted himself.  I'm one of those people who credits Pau Gasol with the two Laker titles even more-so than Kobe Bryant.  While Kobe was winning 34 games with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler on his lotto Lakers ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html ), Gasol was off in Memphis leading them to back-to-back-to-back 45-50 win playoff appearances with Mike Miller as his 2nd best player ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2006.html ).  In 2010 when they beat us, Gasol averaged 19 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks in the finals while shooting 48%.  Kobe chucked his way to 28 point average on 40% shooting and ended up winning the MVP.  Kobe was 6-24 in the a deciding game where Gasol had 19 points, 18 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 blocks over us.    Frankly, Gasol earned the Finals MVP that year... not Kobe.  Pau killed us.  We were destroyed inside (especially with Perk out).  Way too much size and we couldn't deal with them.  We have lost our last 3 games to the Lakers for that same reason and will surely be owned by them if we see them in the Finals (last time we beat them... both Shaq and Perk were in our lineup).  Dominant big men are difference makers and Pau Gasol is 4 years younger than Kevin Garnett.  This is a Celtic forum so people rightfully hate Laker players... but ya'll should be thrilled the Lakers are so poorly coached right now, because if they ever figure out how to ride their dominant big men this year... they are going to win the title.