Author Topic: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery  (Read 9633 times)

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Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 09:54:23 PM »

Offline chambers

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Well maybe Hollinger is right.
With a bit of luck, the Clippers could very well miss the playoffs  8)
Utah, Houston and Denver are nipping at their heels or within one game of over taking them and the Clippers are playing terribly.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 10:46:29 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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C's are getting hurt in Hollinger's rankings by some big blowouts in the last 25% of their games without having any blowouts of their own. It is the one flaw of using scoring margin so heavily.

Scoring margin is better than past wins as a predictor of future wins.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 11:23:11 PM »

Offline goCeltics

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per is garbage, stats ppl even hate it, espn promoted rubbish

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »

Offline Marcus13

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Well maybe Hollinger is right.
With a bit of luck, the Clippers could very well miss the playoffs  8)
Utah, Houston and Denver are nipping at their heels or within one game of over taking them and the Clippers are playing terribly.


Not a good thing.  Their draft pick we own is lottery-protected

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 03:27:02 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Well maybe Hollinger is right.
With a bit of luck, the Clippers could very well miss the playoffs  8)
Utah, Houston and Denver are nipping at their heels or within one game of over taking them and the Clippers are playing terribly.


Not a good thing.  Their draft pick we own is lottery-protected
Not quite, it is top 10 protected.

Which given that the Clippers are only likely to just miss the playoffs with a record that likely would make it in the East they'll have the 12th-14th pick. So unless they move up to the top 3 via the lottery, very small chance of this, we'd still get the pick.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 03:40:28 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Bird could also get a shot off from anywhere on the floor, especially with his ridiculous fadeaways.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 03:42:33 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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There's only a tiny chance we lose the Clippers pick.

It's probably a 10% chance that they miss the playoffs. (Hollinger has this at 17% but I think that's high).

Then, around 2% chance they get a top 3 pick from the 12-14 range, once they're in the lottery.

In other words, a roughly 0.2% chance we lose the pick. That's 2 out of 1000, in other words.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Also, we get Milwaukee's 2nd round pick if they somehow beat us or the Knicks for the 8th seed (top 45 protected).  BTW, this pick is gone forever if we don't get it this year.  It'd be a small, but possibly useful chip for us.  Go Bucks.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 04:21:43 PM »

Offline colincb

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PER leaves plenty to be desired, but his method of rating teams is even worse and his playoff odds are derived from that.

I assure you that the Sixers are no where close to being the 4th best team in the NBA.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 04:43:30 PM »

Offline RyNye

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Scoring margin is better than past wins as a predictor of future wins.

While that is technically true, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a GOOD predictor. Just a lesser of two evils, if you get my drift. Especially in a shortened season, when the schedule has a much stronger adverse effect, and diminishing the data pool.

For example, did you know that, in a regular, non-NBA adjusted season, there is a significant statistical difference between home team win percentage for games played at different times of day, or on different days? During a regular season, those sort of statistical little quirks more or less even out, because you aren't disproportionately playing more on certain days (by and large, anyway). However, when you shorten the season even more, all of the less tangible statistical factors suddenly have more strength to them, and you throw in additional variables with fatigue, travel, psychological burnout, etc. etc. ...

What I am getting at, here, is that all of the stats and whatnot that we have are pretty specifically geared towards measuring an 82-game season, and it is difficult to apply the same rules towards one of abnormal length.

(If the length of the season were lengthened to, say, 100 games, we would have the same problems, though not as aggravated).

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2012, 04:59:50 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Scoring margin is better than past wins as a predictor of future wins.

While that is technically true, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a GOOD predictor. Just a lesser of two evils, if you get my drift. Especially in a shortened season, when the schedule has a much stronger adverse effect, and diminishing the data pool.
I do agree there is more noise in the compressed lockout shortened season we are having now.

But such noise isn't a good reason to toss out point differential entirely. Its still the best predictor we have, much better than subjective picking of teams by commentators.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2012, 07:37:05 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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I think his statistics are overall pretty solid at predicting what a team is likely to do in the regular season. He uses smart, solid indicators - point differential weighed more than record; strength of schedule is factored in since you expect, on the whole, that schedules will balance out over the course of a season, so if you played a tough schedule it should lighten up and vice versa; paying attention to home games v. road games since teams typically are better at home than on the road and that will balance out by the end of the year; giving greater emphasis on what a team is doing lately than what it did two months ago. They're good indicators for how good a team has actually been this year, and what they are likely to do over the remainder of the regular season.

There are obvious flaws - I agree, there's no way Hollinger can reasonably think Philly is the fourth best team in the NBA (is there?). And a big point differential outlier can have a significant but erroneous impact. For example, both Boston and New York played Portland at home in mid-March - the Celtics led by 35 at the half and 34 after 3. The end of the Celtics bench was outscored by Portland's by 16 in the fourth quarter and Boston got a plus-18 margin of victory. The Knicks led by 26 at the half and 22 after 3. Their bench beat up on the Blazers bench and New York got a plus-42 margin of victory. Neither victory was more impressive than the other, but the Knicks get an extra 24 point margin - at this point, that's a half a point difference for the season point differential, and a 2 point difference for the last quarter of the season and would have a significant impact on Hollinger's rankings.

But overall, I think they're reasonable. And I think there was reason for an impartial NBA fan to question the Celtics. Until that Milwaukee game, the Bucks were hot, the Knicks were hot, the Celtics were lukewarm, all three were tight in the standings, but the Celtics had by far the toughest stretch of schedule remaining. His model had the three finishing with the same record, Boston losing out on tiebreakers. (And importantly, it wasn't just his numbers. He was asked point blank in his chat how he specifically thought the season would play out, and he said Milwaukee 7, New York 8, Boston 9. That's not unreasonable for an impartial fan to think.)

I do think his statistical models suffer once you get to the postseason. At that point, the game changes (a more grind it out style works better than a free wheeling style as defenses buckle down), the teams change (benches are shortened), and circumstances change (no back-to-backs, game planning for only one team for two weeks instead of adapting to new teams on a nightly basis). And the intangible quality of "knowing how to win" becomes somewhat more important than the ability to just overpower as there are closer games typically - this poses a huge problem for Philly specifically, which has more 20 point wins than any other team in the NBA, but has not won a game within five points.
Go Celtics.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2012, 07:56:21 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Scoring margin is better than past wins as a predictor of future wins.

While that is technically true, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a GOOD predictor. Just a lesser of two evils, if you get my drift. Especially in a shortened season, when the schedule has a much stronger adverse effect, and diminishing the data pool.
I do agree there is more noise in the compressed lockout shortened season we are having now.

But such noise isn't a good reason to toss out point differential entirely. Its still the best predictor we have, much better than subjective picking of teams by commentators.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the bolded part.  I will take the opinion of an indiviual with an accute understanding of basketball any day of the week over a statisical measure incapable of accounting for unseen variables.

The problem is, most of the commentators on TV and on the internet really aren't that knowledgeable.  They're just good at creating talking points.

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2012, 09:21:37 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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And the intangible quality of "knowing how to win" becomes somewhat more important than the ability to just overpower as there are closer games typically - this poses a huge problem for Philly specifically, which has more 20 point wins than any other team in the NBA, but has not won a game within five points.

People who crunch numbers have shown that the ability to blow out bad teams is a better predictor of post-season success than the ability to win close games against good teams.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Hollinger Wrong - Cs won't be in lottery
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2012, 09:58:25 PM »

Offline MBunge

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People who crunch numbers have shown that the ability to blow out bad teams is a better predictor of post-season success than the ability to win close games against good teams.

Which is why the Miami Heat won the championship last season. Oh, wait.

Mike