If Faried fell to the C's, would he be playing?

[Fan from VT]

Yeah this is a continuation of a weird thought about Doc.

Faried is a beast, pure and simple; he gives us a lot of what we need and he'd play for us.

He himself played in only 5 of Denver's first 24 games this year. And those games he played 9, 10, 11, 7, 5 minutes. So not like other coaches just throw rookies out there before they're ready.

In Powe's rookie season, he actually played MORE than Faried early on, and ended up playing in 63 games with most o fhis playing time in the last month of the season.

Glen Davis (much less impact than Faried has already shown) played in 69 games as a rookie. Faried, being better, would have played in more.

[mgent]

I don't know but I was praying he would.  Rondo would love this guy.

[Tai]

Yea no offense to the Doc dissenters, but I see a lotta your arguments as pseudo, at best. Or at least, you haven't proved beyond a doubt that they're not pseudo.

What people are basically saying is the only guy we haven't "played" that's been able to stick in this league is Bill Walker, and suddenly Doc just doesn't play rookies. REALLY?!

What about Pruitt? Giddens? Even Harangody? Hudson?? Where are these guys now? Seriously, I have to ask. It'd be one thing if these guys went on to be all-stars.

I agree with phonic on the ones wanting the rookies to play probably young guys. I don't even know if I qualify as old at 22, but I can only assume that a young guy is saying "so if I was a rookie in Doc's system, I'd basically be on the bench all season? Screw Doc!"

Apart from that, where's the track record that proves Doc doesn't play good rookies? I bet y'all think they wouldn't play Lin either, even though he was claimed twice this year by the C's.

[KCattheStripe]

Yes, because he's a rookie who can actually play.

[MBunge]

I love these tautology arguments.  "If he could play, Doc would be playing him."  As if Doc has never made a bad decision or a mistake.

Answer this question, why did JJJ play only 5 minutes in the blowout loss to Sacramento?  He's your first round pick, he's had several games this year when he's been productive when he was on the floor and though the number's likely skewed because his playing time is so inconsistent, JJJ has a PER of 13.4 at the power forward spot while the opposing player has a PER of 7.8.  Brandon Bass has a PER at the 4 spot of 14.6 while giving up a PER of 11.9.

Yet, even though Boston's starters had played poorly and were down 91-74 entering the 4th quarter against the Kings and with a back-to-back coming up the next night...JJJ played 5 whole minutes.  Anybody remember that game where we beat Chicago and JJJ played 33 minutes, got 12 points and 4 rebounds?  Did he look like a guy who sucks so bad he should never see the court in anything except blowout garbage time?

At the start of this year, Avery Bradley played worse than anything we've seen from JJJ.  He still played, though, and after getting a chance to start he suddenly became a decent player.  Now, I don't know if more playing time would have any similar effect on JJJ, but I am sick of people talking about how JJJ can't do this and can't do that and shouldn't be on the court WHEN HE'S NEVER GOTTEN A CHANCE.  If you play a guy and he stinks, that's one thing.  It doesn't seem to matter with Keyon Dooling, however.  But it is simply not the case that Doc has tried to play JJJ and he's sucked when given those opportunities.

Mike

[Eja117]

Faried Zakaria would definitely not be playing. Possibly assistant coaching and scouting the other team, or maybe negotiating the release of a great player from North Korea or something, but definitely not playing.

[greenpride32]

To be fair, Faried only started getting minutes about a month ago; around the same time as Linsanity; so he was buried out in DEN for quite some time. 

While I agree that Doc is very hesitant on playing our rookies, one thing to keep in mind is our picks are a lot lower.  The percent chance of survival in the NBA decreases exponentially as you start sliding down the order.  The coaches might just realize from the get go that this 37th or 46th overall pick just isn't NBA material and they don't deserve minutes.  Even late first rounders rarealy make it, which is what we've been getting the past few years.

[Tai]

I love these tautology arguments.  "If he could play, Doc would be playing him."  As if Doc has never made a bad decision or a mistake.

Answer this question, why did JJJ play only 5 minutes in the blowout loss to Sacramento?  He's your first round pick, he's had several games this year when he's been productive when he was on the floor and though the number's likely skewed because his playing time is so inconsistent, JJJ has a PER of 13.4 at the power forward spot while the opposing player has a PER of 7.8.  Brandon Bass has a PER at the 4 spot of 14.6 while giving up a PER of 11.9.

Yet, even though Boston's starters had played poorly and were down 91-74 entering the 4th quarter against the Kings and with a back-to-back coming up the next night...JJJ played 5 whole minutes.  Anybody remember that game where we beat Chicago and JJJ played 33 minutes, got 12 points and 4 rebounds?  Did he look like a guy who sucks so bad he should never see the court in anything except blowout garbage time?

At the start of this year, Avery Bradley played worse than anything we've seen from JJJ.  He still played, though, and after getting a chance to start he suddenly became a decent player.  Now, I don't know if more playing time would have any similar effect on JJJ, but I am sick of people talking about how JJJ can't do this and can't do that and shouldn't be on the court WHEN HE'S NEVER GOTTEN A CHANCE.  If you play a guy and he stinks, that's one thing.  It doesn't seem to matter with Keyon Dooling, however.  But it is simply not the case that Doc has tried to play JJJ and he's sucked when given those opportunities.

Mike

I'll say for JJJ that he's not there yet/ready yet. I won't say he sucks, I agree that's pushing it. As for the Kings game, he went in with 4:31 to play. The C's were trying to make one last run to make a comeback, and it didn't happen. Oh well. Even then, Pierce only played 35 minutes and he had the most minutes outta the starters. KG didn't even play 30 minutes that game.

Also keep in mind that Stiemsma has gotten his fair share of time. Whether through injury or what not, you can only spin that so much.

[GreenFaith1819]

Faried Zakaria would definitely not be playing. Possibly assistant coaching and scouting the other team, or maybe negotiating the release of a great player from North Korea or something, but definitely not playing.

 

[slamtheking]

Big Baby could contribute, so he played.  Powe could contribute, so he played.  As much as we need size right now, if JuJuan Johnson could help this team, he'd be playing.  So lay off Doc already.  Personally, I think JJJ is terrible and will have the same career that every soft, 6'10", jump shooting PF, who plays no defense and can't rebound has.  A short one.  The only reason he's on the C's is because of his height.  He was just another body to fill a roster spot, at a time when we were desperate for size.  In fact, our ENTIRE bench is put together out of desperation.  With MAYBE the exception of Pietrus, none of our reserves belong in the NBA, and in four years or less, none of them will be in the NBA.  

I assume the people that call out Doc for not playing the rooks are kids.  When I was young, no matter how bad they were, the rookies were always my favorite players.  Or at least I always wanted to see them play.  As I got older, I learned how to evaluate talent a little better, and I understood why the rookies didn't play.  For every basket you watch JJJ make, Doc sees him make 5 mistakes that you don't see.  Stiemsma, Bradley, Moore and JJJ are not NBA players.  So don't get mad at Doc for not playing them in NBA games. Oh, and this link also says you're wrong.  Good day, kids.

http://www.celticslife.com/2012/01/debunking-myth-that-doc-wont-play.html

that article doesn't debunk anything.  it does prove you're pretty condescending with an unsupportable opinion.

What that article, and the "will play rookies if they're good enough" crowd on this site continually neglect to provide is a very basic piece of info to support their opinion (it's not a fact)  and it's this --> what vets did doc sit in favor of those rookies?  the answer --> none.  

I'll believe Doc plays rookies based on talent when someone who believes this can actually tell me any veteran that was healthy and available but was a DNP-CD.  

As for whether Faried would be playing -- I'm not sure.  Doc obviously doesn't feel a sense a need to expand the rotation to get another big in there (JJJ) so I'm not sure Faried sees court time either.  Also, his D didn't overwhelm me in that game.  loved his rebounding (from a talent evaluation standpoint, not as someone pleased to see him do that to the C's) and was hoping the C's could get him in the draft.  I'm not so sure Doc plays him.  He's no Center whereas Steimsma is so that could be why he's getting time instead of JJJ.   
If KG and Bass were out while we still had JO and Wilcox, we might be seeing JJJ instead of Steimsma right now.

Oh, and by the way, I'm no kid.  I'm probably older than you and by a fair amount too.

[phonic1]

Big Baby could contribute, so he played.  Powe could contribute, so he played.  As much as we need size right now, if JuJuan Johnson could help this team, he'd be playing.  So lay off Doc already.  Personally, I think JJJ is terrible and will have the same career that every soft, 6'10", jump shooting PF, who plays no defense and can't rebound has.  A short one.  The only reason he's on the C's is because of his height.  He was just another body to fill a roster spot, at a time when we were desperate for size.  In fact, our ENTIRE bench is put together out of desperation.  With MAYBE the exception of Pietrus, none of our reserves belong in the NBA, and in four years or less, none of them will be in the NBA. 

I assume the people that call out Doc for not playing the rooks are kids.  When I was young, no matter how bad they were, the rookies were always my favorite players.  Or at least I always wanted to see them play.  As I got older, I learned how to evaluate talent a little better, and I understood why the rookies didn't play.  For every basket you watch JJJ make, Doc sees him make 5 mistakes that you don't see.  Stiemsma, Bradley, Moore and JJJ are not NBA players.  So don't get mad at Doc for not playing them in NBA games. Oh, and this link also says you're wrong.  Good day, kids.

http://www.celticslife.com/2012/01/debunking-myth-that-doc-wont-play.html

that article doesn't debunk anything.  it does prove you're pretty condescending with an unsupportable opinion.

What that article, and the "will play rookies if they're good enough" crowd on this site continually neglect to provide is a very basic piece of info to support their opinion (it's not a fact)  and it's this --> what vets did doc sit in favor of those rookies?  the answer --> none.   

I'll believe Doc plays rookies based on talent when someone who believes this can actually tell me any veteran that was healthy and available but was a DNP-CD. 

As for whether Faried would be playing -- I'm not sure.  Doc obviously doesn't feel a sense a need to expand the rotation to get another big in there (JJJ) so I'm not sure Faried sees court time either.  Also, his D didn't overwhelm me in that game.  loved his rebounding (from a talent evaluation standpoint, not as someone pleased to see him do that to the C's) and was hoping the C's could get him in the draft.  I'm not so sure Doc plays him.  He's no Center whereas Steimsma is so that could be why he's getting time instead of JJJ.   
If KG and Bass were out while we still had JO and Wilcox, we might be seeing JJJ instead of Steimsma right now.

Oh, and by the way, I'm no kid.  I'm probably older than you and by a fair amount too.

I still don't understand your logic here.  How about we just take the word "rookie" out of this?  Doc, like any coach, will play a player who deserves to play.  I doesn't matter if it's a rookie or not, as proved in that article.  The truth is, Doc has given deserving rookies substantial roles on his teams.  You're calling it an opinion, when that article presents facts.  Good luck winning an argument against facts.  In my opinion, JJJ and Moore (the players, not rookies) have done nothing to deserve playing time.  And I don't consider hitting a couple wide open jump shots as earning more playing time.  Also consider, Doc and staff have seen our rookies play many hours of scrimmage.  Much more than the 5 minute glimpses we see during garbage time.  And since there doesn't seem to be any rift between Doc and the front office on the subject, both of whom watch this team practice, I'd have to believe entire organization unanimously shares my and the "will play rookies if they're good enough" crowd's, opinion.


Oh, and I apologize if I came off condescending.  I'm usually just joking around.  But then again, people on message boards who think they know more than coaches, is one of my pet peeves.  You just don't have enough info on what's going on behind behind the scenes.  I guess you could say the same about the front office, who I've been not been a fan of lately.

[Tai]

Big Baby could contribute, so he played.  Powe could contribute, so he played.  As much as we need size right now, if JuJuan Johnson could help this team, he'd be playing.  So lay off Doc already.  Personally, I think JJJ is terrible and will have the same career that every soft, 6'10", jump shooting PF, who plays no defense and can't rebound has.  A short one.  The only reason he's on the C's is because of his height.  He was just another body to fill a roster spot, at a time when we were desperate for size.  In fact, our ENTIRE bench is put together out of desperation.  With MAYBE the exception of Pietrus, none of our reserves belong in the NBA, and in four years or less, none of them will be in the NBA.  

I assume the people that call out Doc for not playing the rooks are kids.  When I was young, no matter how bad they were, the rookies were always my favorite players.  Or at least I always wanted to see them play.  As I got older, I learned how to evaluate talent a little better, and I understood why the rookies didn't play.  For every basket you watch JJJ make, Doc sees him make 5 mistakes that you don't see.  Stiemsma, Bradley, Moore and JJJ are not NBA players.  So don't get mad at Doc for not playing them in NBA games. Oh, and this link also says you're wrong.  Good day, kids.

http://www.celticslife.com/2012/01/debunking-myth-that-doc-wont-play.html

that article doesn't debunk anything.  it does prove you're pretty condescending with an unsupportable opinion.

What that article, and the "will play rookies if they're good enough" crowd on this site continually neglect to provide is a very basic piece of info to support their opinion (it's not a fact)  and it's this --> what vets did doc sit in favor of those rookies?  the answer --> none.  

I'll believe Doc plays rookies based on talent when someone who believes this can actually tell me any veteran that was healthy and available but was a DNP-CD.  

As for whether Faried would be playing -- I'm not sure.  Doc obviously doesn't feel a sense a need to expand the rotation to get another big in there (JJJ) so I'm not sure Faried sees court time either.  Also, his D didn't overwhelm me in that game.  loved his rebounding (from a talent evaluation standpoint, not as someone pleased to see him do that to the C's) and was hoping the C's could get him in the draft.  I'm not so sure Doc plays him.  He's no Center whereas Steimsma is so that could be why he's getting time instead of JJJ.   
If KG and Bass were out while we still had JO and Wilcox, we might be seeing JJJ instead of Steimsma right now.

Oh, and by the way, I'm no kid.  I'm probably older than you and by a fair amount too.

I'm not sure I get this. I mean, Daniels and Pavlovic have gotten plenty of DNP-CDs as veterans. Clearly your argument isn't has clear cut as that.

Can you prove to me, for example, that JJJ deserves time over Bass? That Stiemsma deserved time over Wilcox, or even JO? Or do you just hate JO like some people and would use that to concoct an argument in sitting?

Also realize that it's about learning the system too, which Doc especially talked about when discussion JJJ to the media after one of his better games. Just saying they put up a few jump shots doesn't say anything. Gerald Green could do that (and dunk), yet only this season was he able to get back in the NBA after being out for a while.

Most rookies don't pick up a NBA system just like that, especially in a season like this where training camps were cut to almost nil. Even Faried didn't start getting on the court regularly until early February. So with that said, if he developed as well with the Celtics as he did with the Nuggets, of course Doc would play him.

This urban myth, to be frank, has annoyed me and to be honest again I'm not sure where the proof lies that other NBA coaches are that much different. As in, I'm sure most teams have a young player, possibly a rookie, where the fanbase wonders why the player in question doesn't play more over so and so veteran.

[Chief]

I thought NBA teams drafted 4 year seniors, because they are more NBA ready?

[RockinRyA]

when there are better options, doc plays vets more. true baby got to play, but it was not so much and mostly it was in his second year. in a way same as bradley this year.

He plays the young guys in their second year in the league if theyre decent/good. rookies if he has other options, tend to sit them. I have no problem with that when were winning, but when we are stinking like right now, and have injuries, its mind boggling.

[redbov]

Of course Doc plays the better options more. That's why Faried would be playing plenty of minutes. About the same he's seeing in Denver, as foul troubles put an upper limit on the amount of time he can stay on the floor.