Are you kidding me?

[Jon]

I totally don't understand what the OP and people of the same opinion are thinking.  What exactly is some late first round pick going to get us?  Nearly every late first round pick is either a role player or out of the league in under 5 years.  

To see more, see my post on the #22 pick in the Epic Fail Thread:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169120#msg1169120

Whatever small chance we have at winning a title this year, we have an even smaller chance of getting an impact player that late in the draft.  

Here is my 15 man team from players taken after 22 in the draft.

C - Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan, Nikola Peckovic
PF - Carlos Boozer, David Lee, Luis Scola
SF - Gerald Wallace, Nicholas Batum, Tayshaun Prince
SG - Manu Ginobli, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin
PG - Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Louis Williams

I think I could realistically compete for a title with that team even without the A+ superstar that you often need.  


Here are just a sampling of players that weren't good enough for my 3 deep depth chart

C - Samuel Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, Joel Anthony, Nenad Krstic, Omer Asik, ZaZa Pachulia
PF - Paul Millsap, Anderson Varejao, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Carl Landry, Mehmet Okur, Amir Johnson, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Taj Gibson, Andrew Blatche
SF - Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Kenneth Faried, Josh Howard, Kyle Korver, Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Marcus Thornton, Landry Fields, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen, Deshaun Stevenson, Marshon Brooks
PG - Maurice Williams, Mario Chalmers, Ramon Sessions, Jeremy Lin, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, Jarret Jack, Derek Fisher, Gilbert Arenas, Earl Watson

Probably not a contender from that group, but you could probably piece together a playoff team from that collection of players.

Yes. I am well aware that it happens. However those are very much the exceptions, not the rule. (I'd also argue that part of that wealth of talent came from a disparity in overseas scouting by some teams which had since closed...meaning if Manu or Parker were comIng out today, they wouldn't slip).

All that aside, my point remains, for every one Carlos Boozer who slips there are 20 J. R. Giddens (and that is probably conservative). Is it really worth dealing Ray and all that comes with him (the money and fun of one last hoorah AND the fact they we still hold his rights this summer) for the outside shot we happen to get the next Manu Ginoboli when it is far more likely we get the next Marcus Banks?

And while all those player you list are good players, none are truly great. Hypothetically that team could get lucky like the '04 Pistons and eke out a title, but the fact remains that 95% of the time (it not more) in the NBA you need a transcendent player to win it all (Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG) and none of those guys are.

True, they aren't, but you don't get those players unless you are bad.  Without making any trades, the Celtics aren't really bad and thus won't be in a position to take a transcendant player.  The Celtics should have either blown it up and got whatever they could (and sped up the rebuilding process) or they should have gone all in.  The status quo just means the team delays rebuilding and also doesn't fully capitalize on the finals years of the stars.  The Celtics needed to commit to a course of action, something they didn't do.  The status quo isn't good enough (and I have been saying this since last summer on this board so it isn't monday morning quarterbacking).

I'll grant you that if Danny had traded Ray or all of the Big Three for some late first round draft picks, our future might be slightly brighter.  However, you--and others--are being dramatic and hyperbolic to call this a "debacle."  

I really think a lot of this overreaction is a byproduct of the crazy trade proposals people actually thought were possible.  It seems everyone and his brother thought that JO, Wilcox, and Dooling (and if we ABSOLUTELY have to, a second round pick!) would net us an impact player, now or down the line.  Consequently, when nothing came to fruition, there was major disappointment.  People need to wake up.  We weren't going to get the next cornerstones of the future for the Big Three at this stage of the game.  Now we need to stop pretending that if we traded the Big Three for late first round picks (or as some are suggesting, second round picks) we were assured to magically find the next Manu Ginoboli and Carlos Boozer.  

We also have no idea what Danny was actually being offered or what he actually has planned.  The Big Three all have substantial contracts.  How do we know that all of the first round picks that we imagine he was offered didn't also involve us taking back significant salary beyond this year that would have negatively impacted DA's plans.  We also don't know if Chris Kaman will be bought out within the next week and end up in Beantown, proving why Danny didn't make a deal.  

Finally, as I said before, I think money played a big part in all of this, and quite frankly I don't blame Wyc.  Wyc has been more than generous and willing to spend over his tenure here.  But here's what people need to reaize:

Boston has the HIGHEST payroll in the NBA at over 87 million dollars.  

Trading the Big Three would require us to take nearly as much money back as we give up, so that number wouldn't be going down by much no matter what we did.  Do people honestly expect Wyc to blow the team up, keep an 85+ million dollar payroll, lose out on ticket sales the rest of the season, lose out on playoff revenue, all in the name of some late first or second round picks and so our current first round pick could move up a few spots?  

I have no doubt in my mind Wyc would've bit the bullet and done it have the Celtics actually been offered a legitimate cornerstone for the future.  However, I don't think any of us can expect him to bit the bullet on so slight of an upgrade that is more likely to mean nothing 5 years from now than actually pan out.  

I say the status quo isn't good enough and some how that is being overly dramatic and debacle.  Right.  Cause I said that.

Unless you think this team as presently construed has a realistic shot at the title, you should be upset moves weren't made.  

The team either should have gone into full bore rebuilding and gotten whatever it could (which would have made the team worse this year and better positioned in the draft) or it should have packaged draft picks and filler for pieces to help make the team better.  


The status quo just delays the inevitable and without Howard on the market and with Williams not going to come here, there are no worthy free agents to utilize the cap space on.  Now there may be a trade or two the Celtics can use the cap space on, but they aren't going to get a real star in that space especially without assets to trade (which is why the extra pieces might come in handy).  

Say the Celtics did trade Allen to Indiana for a 1st (or a future 1st, which might actually be better).  I think that trade may have been possible given some of the reported comments and trades made (i.e they took on Barbosa and gave up a 2nd, I think Allen is worth more than barbosa and Bird said Ainge wanted both a player and pick, I got the impression just a pick may have been good enough).  Celtics take on no salary and get an asset that can be packaged in a future trade.  

Maybe New Jersey would have rather had Pierce than Gerald Wallace.  Maybe you get a draft pick from them (perhaps it has more protection than the Portland deal).  Celtics would have cut out some future salary and picked up another draft pick.  

Maybe you take on Blatche (who has a bad contract, but it isn't cap prohibitive) for O'Neal and get a pick from Washington as was rumored as being out there.  

The more assets you have the more flexibility you have to make moves.  After free agency starts if the team has cap room and either some new draftees or future picks, perhaps it can trade for an all star type player by taking on the salary and giving up some picks.  A Josh Smith type trade.  You can't do that if you don't have assets though.



Or maybe you go the other way and try to win now by using the firsts, taking on future salary, etc.  Perhaps the team should have explored a trade for Okafor by using O'Neal (maybe even get a first out of it).  Maybe you trade O'Neal and a 1st for Stephen Jackson (add Johnson or Moore if necessary).  Maybe you package O'Neal, Dooling, and Johnson for Camby (throw in a first if needed).  Maybe you pick up Sessions from the Cavs for filler and the Clippers pick.  Or Jordan Hill from the Rockets.  And for the most part similar trades to those actually happened so I'm not just making stuff up.  

The problem I had with yesterday (and even the off season to a lesser extent) was that Boston seems happy with the status quo and the status quo in my eye is not a legit title contender and not a team on the way back up.  

But you're assuming all those things didn't happen.  Ainge has said repeatedly that a number of deals were very close, but ultimately he couldn't find anything that could make them better in the short term or long term. 

And you're acting like this precludes the possibility of making deals later.  Pierce can still be traded next year.  Ray and KG can still be signed and traded; be signed, play part of the season, and be traded at the next deadline; or can be left to expire, and we can take on salary in the space they leave in a future trade this summer. 

I would've liked a deal too.  I just don't know how you can blindly criticize DA when you don't know what he had on the table.  Just because something was rumored or you reason something to be the case, doesn't mean that it was on the table. 

[tyrone biggums]

This thread is pointless, we've turned into the most ungrateful fan base in sports. To the point where some posters actually regret the KG trade because of Big Al and Gerald Green has averaged 11 points a game since his return.

[soap07]

I can't believe Danny didn't get us any legitimate help! It doesn't matter that our assets aren't very highly valued and that low first round picks are usually not very valuable!

[RyNye]

I am really getting sick of some of the whining. Unless someone can prove that there was a good deal on the table that Ainge turned down, or that he couldn't pull off, then stop complaining about it.

[dlpin]

There are no good players in free agency except for Deron Williams and he won't come here.  The rest of the free agent class are role players and lesser starters.  Not players to build around, but guys that can put a contender over the top. 

The only way to use the cap space is to trade with teams that might have a disgruntled star.  The problem is, aside from cap space, Boston has very little in the way of actual assets to trade (aside from Rondo) so they would get outbid if the player was really that type of transcendent player (like Dwight).

Not only disgruntled stars. You can get players that are very good but not stars (al jefferson to utah, camby to clippers, for example) or you can use your cap space to help other teams make deals, getting picks back in exchange (the OKC model).

All are much, much better alternatives to giving up draft picks for jordan hill and the like.

[lepoooo]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

We couldn't find a single playoff team that could use Ray Allen?  What about Pietrus?  How about Bass?  Maybe even KG to the right team.  I figured after the Wilcox news (which is sad in itself that losing Chris Wilcox should have such a disastrous effect on a team) that we'd waive the white flag and desperately snatch up as many 1st/2nd round picks as possible.  This team doesn't have a center!  We barely have a PF!  This team doesn't have a lot of things!  Did Ainge p--- off all the GM's around the league or something? 

Worst part is, now we have to trot out the big 3 and whatever's left of this team, only to be semi-competitive and hurt our chances at a decent draft pick.  Greaaaaaat...

Huh? Wilcox goes down and you want to waive the white flag? Wilcox played a nice role for a short amount of time this season. His averages this season were 5.4 points, 4.4 rebounds in 17.2 minutese per game. Clearly his production can easily be replaced by.....anyone.

[MBunge]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

The Clippers just lost to the Suns when Nash and Hill didn't even play.  The Heat just lost to the Bulls when Rose didn't even play.  Is this Celtics team likely to win another title?  No.  But it wouldn't be the craziest thing to ever happen if they did.

Mike

[Celts Fan 92]

i aint even trippin off not trading any of the big 4 this year my beef is not gettin ANY type of size but if they're comfortable goin to the D-League pickin up an Earl barron type player thats on dem im still deflated by the lack of a move from yesterday

[Tai]

I'm arguing against imaginary arguments?      

Well, you do, and you´re not alone, considering I´ve had to read the same stuff on the front page.

I haven´t read a single trade proposal of JO + Dooling for "Young superstar X" on this site, for example.

Just because some 12 year old kid who knows how to use a computer posts a stupid trade idea somewhere on the internet doesn´t mean that everyone who argues pro trades shares the same mindset.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169033#msg1169033

You said in the 3rd page of the "Epic Fail" topic that you were devastated. How do you say that and when someone says that people are acting like it's the end of the world, you claim that's an exaggeration?

The bottom line, a GM was ticked off talking to Danny. Danny didn't give away anyone for JUST anything/anyone. Why should he have?

The facts are the facts: We have two first round picks. We have two second round picks. I ran through how many picks each team has and which ones. Here's what I found.

Blazers: 4 (1st: 6, 11 2nd: 11, 14)
Cavaliers: 4 (1st: 8, 25 2nd: 2, 8
Celtics: 4 (1st: 18, 21 2nd: 15, 18)
Raptors: 3 (1st: 4 2nd: 4, 24)
Wizards: 3 (1st: 3 2nd: 3, 19)
Warriors: 3 (1st: 27 2nd: 6, 20)
Jazz: 3 (1st: 10, 13 2nd: 13)
Pistons: 3 (1st: 7 2nd: 7, 16)
Nuggets: 3 (1st: 17 2nd: 10, 17)
Sixers: 3 (1st: 22 2nd: 22, 23)
Magic: 2 (1st: 26 2nd: 26)
Bobcats: 2 (1st: 1  2nd: 1)
Hawks: 2 (1st: 20 2nd: 12)
Hornets: 2 (1st: 2, 14 2nd: None)
Kings: 2 (1st: 5 2nd: 5)
Nets: 2 (1st: 16 2nd: 28)
Mavericks: 2 (1st: 19 2nd: 25)
Rockets: 1 (1st: 9 2nd: None)
Suns: 1 (1st: 12 2nd: None)
Bucks: 1 (1st: 15 2nd: None)
Grizzlies: 1 (1st: 23 2nd: None)
Pacers: 1 (1st: 24 2nd: None)
Heat: 1 (1st: 28 2nd: None)
Thunder: 1 (1st: 29 2nd: None)
Bulls: 1 (1st: 30 2nd: None)
Knicks: 1 (1st: None 2nd: 9)
Clippers: 1(1st: None 2nd: 21)
Spurs: 1 (1st: None 2nd: 27)
Timberwolves: 1 (1st: None 2nd: 29)
Lakers 1 (1st: None 2nd: 30)

Teams with 4 Picks: 3
Teams with 3 Picks: 7
Teams with 2 Picks: 7
Teams with 1 Pick: 13

So, that's only 10 teams with at least 3 picks, and only 3 teams with 4 picks, and the Celtics are one of them.

That also means if we dumped even one of the Big 3 for a pick, we would have had the most picks in this coming draft. Are you gonna try to sell me the notion that something like that may have factored, even if only a little, into some teams not wanting to even give Danny picks, let alone a pick and a young player, for one of our Big 3?

Why trade for the sake of trading when we already have so many picks?

If the Celtics are not in a position to "rebuild", then who is? Are you still devastated that we're tied for the most picks in the coming draft?

[OmarSekou]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

I'm amazed that fans don't support this team. Why not just support the Heat or the Bulls or whoever is expected to win. I'll hang onto the hope that we can pull off a few upsets, get a few breaks, and find a way. If not we'll get treated to a few exciting and gritty performances from a scrappy veteran team.

It's not denial, it's just that giving up isn't an option. There's a reason they play the games. Nothing's decided until it's decided. The whole "if we don't win it's worthless" thing is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's an impossible standard. My only expectation is that we'll do our best. My goal is that we'll win, and if we do it will be special because I'll know that no one else believed in us. If we lose, it's on to next year.

What's the point of watching if you're expecting us to lose? I don't even get how that's fun.

[GreenFaith1819]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

I'm amazed that fans don't support this team. Why not just support the Heat or the Bulls or whoever is expected to win. I'll hang onto the hope that we can pull off a few upsets, get a few breaks, and find a way. If not we'll get treated to a few exciting and gritty performances from a scrappy veteran team.

It's not denial, it's just that giving up isn't an option. There's a reason they play the games. Nothing's decided until it's decided. The whole "if we don't win it's worthless" thing is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's an impossible standard. My only expectation is that we'll do our best. My goal is that we'll win, and if we do it will be special because I'll know that no one else believed in us. If we lose, it's on to next year.

What's the point of watching if you're expecting us to lose? I don't even get how that's fun.

I wonder how lepooo feels about our run in 09-10 Playoffs...

[tyrone biggums]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

I'm amazed that fans don't support this team. Why not just support the Heat or the Bulls or whoever is expected to win. I'll hang onto the hope that we can pull off a few upsets, get a few breaks, and find a way. If not we'll get treated to a few exciting and gritty performances from a scrappy veteran team.

It's not denial, it's just that giving up isn't an option. There's a reason they play the games. Nothing's decided until it's decided. The whole "if we don't win it's worthless" thing is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's an impossible standard. My only expectation is that we'll do our best. My goal is that we'll win, and if we do it will be special because I'll know that no one else believed in us. If we lose, it's on to next year.

What's the point of watching if you're expecting us to lose? I don't even get how that's fun.

Are you really surprised? If you've watched this board the past month you would have even seen posters lament the KG trade because we "gave up on G-Money too soon", not to mention the Big Al deal. You would have seen posters wanting to take on horrendous contracts for a late first rounder (which Phoenix and other teams used to sell anyways without the addition of the crap contract). People hate this team because they're old and slow and not fun to watch, but its not about how fun they are to watch its about the wins and losses. When fans openly start rooting for their team to lose then they aren't real fans. I've never once wanted this team to lose, even in 07 when they told Paul Pierce to stay home. I remember being one of the only people in the cheap seats when John Carroll was the interm head coach, I remember going to the games where ML Carr was coaching. I was a little kid during the glory years of the original Big 3. Just support the team!

[MosheP]

I am really amazed at how many fans still believe in the chances of this team to contend for a championship.

They were brutally destroyed by the Heat last year (ok, big men injuries + Rondo elbow did not help), how can you honestly believe that this team is gonna beat Miami, Chicago, Orlando/Indiana and then the West champion?

LOL.

Have you look at the roster? Seriously?

Sure, they can win 1 on the road in Miami, but they are gonna get destroyed in the 1st round, Kaman or no Kaman.

Most fans seem to be in full denial mode. Is it nostalgia? Or are you really blind? The Big 3 era is over, get over it.

I'm amazed that fans don't support this team. Why not just support the Heat or the Bulls or whoever is expected to win. I'll hang onto the hope that we can pull off a few upsets, get a few breaks, and find a way. If not we'll get treated to a few exciting and gritty performances from a scrappy veteran team.

It's not denial, it's just that giving up isn't an option. There's a reason they play the games. Nothing's decided until it's decided. The whole "if we don't win it's worthless" thing is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's an impossible standard. My only expectation is that we'll do our best. My goal is that we'll win, and if we do it will be special because I'll know that no one else believed in us. If we lose, it's on to next year.

What's the point of watching if you're expecting us to lose? I don't even get how that's fun.

Someone give this man a "I'm a better fan than you" diploma.

Where did lepooo say he wasn't supporting the team?

I don't know about him, but I don't have to convince myself the team can contend for a title to have fun watching games. I've had fun watching title teams and watching the 18 game losing streak games. And that has never prevented me from assessing the realistic chances of the team - I have no idea how some people are able to confuse "I don't think this team is going to win" with "I don't want this team to win". Then again, I certainly don't like to lecture others on their fanhood.

[Celtics4ever]

Maybe a gold star?