Are you kidding me?

[KCattheStripe]

Why not just sign a better calibre player this summer? Why take on an extra year of a cruddy player just for a second round pick when you can just sign a higher calibre player this offseason?

I don't know.. Boston is not exactly a hot spot for free agents.  Plus, what's the sell gonna be?  Come win with a 35 year old Paul Pierce!  Rondo is great play maker, just don't look him in the eye, or he might throw a water bottle at you!  Rondo's bad rep has spread through the league, and someone remind why the hell we signed Pierce to that extension?  Sorry, but Boston has been not a desirable location, and the current situation is not any better.  Name the last free agent, in their prime, to come to Boston.

So we should pay some cruddy player 10 mil for another year so we can get a 2nd round pick and have the same issue of nobody wanting to come to Boston next summer as opposed to this one?

Who says it has to be one player making $10M per year in return for Ray? We could take, and give, multiple players, and some will have expiring contracts.  It's not like we'd have pay some scrub $10M again next season.  That wouldn't be very smart.  Oh and you didn't tell me the last FA in his prime to sign with the C's.    

I think we need to build through the draft, which is why I'm all about gobbling up picks.

I'll point out the last Cs Free Agent signing when you point out the kind of deal you wanted that was on the table for the Cs.

But I'm all for Danny using the assets we have to stockpile useful picks not back end 2nd rounders.

[LarBrd33]

I'm still in a state of shock to be perfectly honest.  WE have failed every single test this year. 0-9 against every single contending team (Dallas, OKC, Chicago, Miami, LA)... and consistently the reason is lack of size.  Outrebounded.  Dominated inside.  YOu can't compete with a team like this.  If you still think this team is "dang" good, you're in "dang" denial.

I'm still beside myself.  I can't believe we didn't do a single thing to improve our team in the short or long term.  Completely shocked.

I wish you would stop defining "contender" as teams that we haven't beaten just because it fits your narrative of how awful we are.  

Sorry...  Chicago, Miami, Dallas, Oklahoma and the Lakers... do you see another team as being a "contender"?  I thought it was pretty established that these were the top teams in the league these days. 

Every single time we have been tested... we've lost.

I guess when you're delusional enough to believe the Celtics are a contender... your list of "contenders" gets pretty big.

[LarBrd33]

What exactly were people expecting the Cs to do?

Honestly?  ANYTHING.  I don't care if we received a 2nd round pick (a high 2nd pick from playoff teams) in return for Ray.  Even if it means taking a player with another year left on his contract, since we're not gonna be good for a while.  It would give Ray a shot at another title and would make us a worse team this year, in order to move up the draft.  But no, let's just get NOTHING in return and get bounced, in embarrassing fashion, by the Heat in the first round.

Agree.  I was prepared for anything.  I was not prepared for nothing. 

I wish I could live in a fantasy world where this team is a "hot run" away from winning a title.  As if the 2012 Celtics are still the 2008 Celtics...   I love that people think you can just swap out 11 guys with random scrubs like Keyon Dooling and Greg Stinksma ... and as long as they are wearing Celtic green it's "still the same championship team... they just haven't flipped the switch yet"...  It's like these people don't recognize that Jermaine O'Neal was our 6th string big man last year, our starting center this year... and now we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for D-Leaguers to fill out our roster.  Delusional thinking. 

Maybe the Pistons have a shot at winning a title too... Ben Wallace is still there and all.   Never underestimate the heart of a champion, right guys?

[phonic1]

What exactly were people expecting the Cs to do?

Honestly?  ANYTHING.  I don't care if we received a 2nd round pick (a high 2nd pick from playoff teams) in return for Ray.  Even if it means taking a player with another year left on his contract, since we're not gonna be good for a while.  It would give Ray a shot at another title and would make us a worse team this year, in order to move up the draft.  But no, let's just get NOTHING in return and get bounced, in embarrassing fashion, by the Heat in the first round.

Agree.  I was prepared for anything.  I was not prepared for nothing. 

I wish I could live in a fantasy world where this team is a "hot run" away from winning a title.  As if the 2012 Celtics are still the 2008 Celtics...   I love that people think you can just swap out 11 guys with random scrubs like Keyon Dooling and Greg Stinksma ... and as long as they are wearing Celtic green it's "still the same championship team... they just haven't flipped the switch yet"...  It's like these people don't recognize that Jermaine O'Neal was our 6th string big man last year, our starting center this year... and now we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for D-Leaguers to fill out our roster.  Delusional thinking. 

Maybe the Pistons have a shot at winning a title too... Ben Wallace is still there and all.   Never underestimate the heart of a champion, right guys?

Bravo.  Can you believe I've spent the last 5 years of my life torturing myself on the Celtic's ESPN message board?  I feel like I've escaped the asylum.  Oh the sanity!!  Maybe I'm not crazy after all.  After all.  After all.

[dlpin]

threads like these make me appreciate Ainge more.

So many people from the Joe Dumars school of thought, of doing anything for the sake of doing anything, of signing anybody for the sake of signing anybody...


No lottery team would have an interest in our veterans. And pretty much all the playoffs teams are over the cap, so we would have had to eat salary back to trade for a 1st rounder.


Even if without Howard as a free agent, cap space is always a valuable thing to have. Al Jefferson, Camby, Pau Gasol were all at one point traded for little more than cap space. So even if there are no marquee free agents available this year, cap space means we can trade for players or picks.

[Casperian]

No lottery team would have an interest in our veterans. And pretty much all the playoffs teams are over the cap, so we would have had to eat salary back to trade for a 1st rounder.

Remind me again why this is such a bad thing if you´re tanking next season, anyways.

Riding it out and using the cap space to sign second tier players is the "Joe Dumars approach" to rebuilding.

Even if without Howard as a free agent, cap space is always a valuable thing to have. Al Jefferson, Camby, Pau Gasol were all at one point traded for little more than cap space.

Even all three of them together couldn´t compete for a title, and Gasol netted two picks plus his younger brother Marc. You need top stars to win in the nba, and you won´t get them with cap space alone.

What have the Pacers done with all their precious cap space?

[Celtics18]

I'm still in a state of shock to be perfectly honest.  WE have failed every single test this year. 0-9 against every single contending team (Dallas, OKC, Chicago, Miami, LA)... and consistently the reason is lack of size.  Outrebounded.  Dominated inside.  YOu can't compete with a team like this.  If you still think this team is "dang" good, you're in "dang" denial.

I'm still beside myself.  I can't believe we didn't do a single thing to improve our team in the short or long term.  Completely shocked.

I wish you would stop defining "contender" as teams that we haven't beaten just because it fits your narrative of how awful we are.  

Sorry...  Chicago, Miami, Dallas, Oklahoma and the Lakers... do you see another team as being a "contender"?  I thought it was pretty established that these were the top teams in the league these days. 

Every single time we have been tested... we've lost.

I guess when you're delusional enough to believe the Celtics are a contender... your list of "contenders" gets pretty big.

No, actually my list of top contenders is only three deep.  After CHI, MIA, and OKC, I see a lot of parity in the league right now and wouldn't put the Lakers and the Mavs in a class above the rest.

The NBA champion will, if everything goes according to script (which we know it doesn't always in sports), most likely come from one of those top three teams.  If anyone can knock one of those top teams off, though, I like our chances as well as or better than anyone. 

I'm looking forward to seeing my Celtics give it a run.  That's all.  I don't consider myself delusional, just a fan who loves watching this team play and am looking forward to cheering for them for the rest of this season.

Thankfully, Danny gave me that chance.

[Jon]

What exactly were people expecting the Cs to do?

Honestly?  ANYTHING.  I don't care if we received a 2nd round pick (a high 2nd pick from playoff teams) in return for Ray.  Even if it means taking a player with another year left on his contract, since we're not gonna be good for a while.  It would give Ray a shot at another title and would make us a worse team this year, in order to move up the draft.  But no, let's just get NOTHING in return and get bounced, in embarrassing fashion, by the Heat in the first round.

Agree.  I was prepared for anything.  I was not prepared for nothing.  

I wish I could live in a fantasy world where this team is a "hot run" away from winning a title.  As if the 2012 Celtics are still the 2008 Celtics...   I love that people think you can just swap out 11 guys with random scrubs like Keyon Dooling and Greg Stinksma ... and as long as they are wearing Celtic green it's "still the same championship team... they just haven't flipped the switch yet"...  It's like these people don't recognize that Jermaine O'Neal was our 6th string big man last year, our starting center this year... and now we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for D-Leaguers to fill out our roster.  Delusional thinking.  

Maybe the Pistons have a shot at winning a title too... Ben Wallace is still there and all.   Never underestimate the heart of a champion, right guys?

Are you guys serious? A second round pick for Ray Allen?  That's just ridiculous.  

Again, do I agree there's little shot of a title this year? Absolutely.  Do I think "getting hot" will do for us?  Nope.  But here's what I do think:

1) If injuries can derail our past 3 seasons, I see no reason why it couldn't happen to one or more of thr legit contenders. And if Rose and LeBron get season ending injuries, we could come out of the east.

2) Is that far-fetched? Yep. But it's less far-fetched than believing a) we're going to get anything worthwhile at the end of the first round or b) trading Ray would cause us to slip far enough to actually get an impact player.

3) Finally consider Wyc. He has one of highest payrolls in the NBA. Do you really expect him to trade Ray for a second round pick, miss the playoffs and all the money that comes with that,  all so we lose a few more games and get the 12th pick in the draft instead of the 16th?  That's just unreasonable.

Keep in mind keeping Ray does have value too. If Ainge isn't going to make a big fee agent splash, he will likely extend Ray one year or sign and trade him. If that is the case, there might be more opportunities down the road to make deals.

[Moranis]

I totally don't understand what the OP and people of the same opinion are thinking.  What exactly is some late first round pick going to get us?  Nearly every late first round pick is either a role player or out of the league in under 5 years. 

To see more, see my post on the #22 pick in the Epic Fail Thread:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169120#msg1169120

Whatever small chance we have at winning a title this year, we have an even smaller chance of getting an impact player that late in the draft. 

Here is my 15 man team from players taken after 22 in the draft.

C - Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan, Nikola Peckovic
PF - Carlos Boozer, David Lee, Luis Scola
SF - Gerald Wallace, Nicholas Batum, Tayshaun Prince
SG - Manu Ginobli, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin
PG - Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Louis Williams

I think I could realistically compete for a title with that team even without the A+ superstar that you often need. 


Here are just a sampling of players that weren't good enough for my 3 deep depth chart

C - Samuel Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, Joel Anthony, Nenad Krstic, Omer Asik, ZaZa Pachulia
PF - Paul Millsap, Anderson Varejao, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Carl Landry, Mehmet Okur, Amir Johnson, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Taj Gibson, Andrew Blatche
SF - Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Kenneth Faried, Josh Howard, Kyle Korver, Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Marcus Thornton, Landry Fields, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen, Deshaun Stevenson, Marshon Brooks
PG - Maurice Williams, Mario Chalmers, Ramon Sessions, Jeremy Lin, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, Jarret Jack, Derek Fisher, Gilbert Arenas, Earl Watson

Probably not a contender from that group, but you could probably piece together a playoff team from that collection of players.

[RyNye]

To build on the above, it's been proven time and time again that just getting good draft picks does not necessarily a champion make.

It takes an overall smart management approach.

Honestly, for people saying that you NEED a high lottery pick, how do you explain the fact that there are teams that are consistently bad for years and years, like the Bobcats and the Clippers until recently? By your logic, these teams would become contenders immediately after a bad season, because that's how rebuilding works.

Yes, getting a superstar in the draft helps. But it takes smart management of assets and trades to put together a champion. Look at the last few NBA champions, how many of them got that team together through the draft? Dallas, LA, Boston, San Antonio ...

[Jon]

I totally don't understand what the OP and people of the same opinion are thinking.  What exactly is some late first round pick going to get us?  Nearly every late first round pick is either a role player or out of the league in under 5 years. 

To see more, see my post on the #22 pick in the Epic Fail Thread:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169120#msg1169120

Whatever small chance we have at winning a title this year, we have an even smaller chance of getting an impact player that late in the draft. 

Here is my 15 man team from players taken after 22 in the draft.

C - Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan, Nikola Peckovic
PF - Carlos Boozer, David Lee, Luis Scola
SF - Gerald Wallace, Nicholas Batum, Tayshaun Prince
SG - Manu Ginobli, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin
PG - Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Louis Williams

I think I could realistically compete for a title with that team even without the A+ superstar that you often need. 


Here are just a sampling of players that weren't good enough for my 3 deep depth chart

C - Samuel Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, Joel Anthony, Nenad Krstic, Omer Asik, ZaZa Pachulia
PF - Paul Millsap, Anderson Varejao, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Carl Landry, Mehmet Okur, Amir Johnson, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Taj Gibson, Andrew Blatche
SF - Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Kenneth Faried, Josh Howard, Kyle Korver, Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Marcus Thornton, Landry Fields, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen, Deshaun Stevenson, Marshon Brooks
PG - Maurice Williams, Mario Chalmers, Ramon Sessions, Jeremy Lin, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, Jarret Jack, Derek Fisher, Gilbert Arenas, Earl Watson

Probably not a contender from that group, but you could probably piece together a playoff team from that collection of players.

Yes. I am well aware that it happens. However those are very much the exceptions, not the rule. (I'd also argue that part of that wealth of talent came from a disparity in overseas scouting by some teams which had since closed...meaning if Manu or Parker were comIng out today, they wouldn't slip).

All that aside, my point remains, for every one Carlos Boozer who slips there are 20 J. R. Giddens (and that is probably conservative). Is it really worth dealing Ray and all that comes with him (the money and fun of one last hoorah AND the fact they we still hold his rights this summer) for the outside shot we happen to get the next Manu Ginoboli when it is far more likely we get the next Marcus Banks?

And while all those player you list are good players, none are truly great. Hypothetically that team could get lucky like the '04 Pistons and eke out a title, but the fact remains that 95% of the time (it not more) in the NBA you need a transcendent player to win it all (Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG) and none of those guys are.

[MosheP]

If out of the lottery pics have so little value, maybe we should have used some - heck, even some 2nd rounders - to improve the roster this season! Just grab a guy like Kurt Thomas or Aaron Gray.

I wonder if the people trying to defend Ainge's debacle understand how inconsistent their argument is. It goes:

a) quality veteran players in expiring contracts didn't have market value anyway, not worth to trade them. Good job Danny!

then they turn around and

b) quality veteran veteran players in expiring contracts were too expensive, not worth to trade for them. Good job Danny!

[MosheP]

There were reports that teams were offering picks or young prospects for the Celtics veterans and that they would be traded if they would offer both.

Ainge didn't think it was worth to break up the team for late first rounders. Otherwise, he could have traded them.

[Moranis]

I totally don't understand what the OP and people of the same opinion are thinking.  What exactly is some late first round pick going to get us?  Nearly every late first round pick is either a role player or out of the league in under 5 years.  

To see more, see my post on the #22 pick in the Epic Fail Thread:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169120#msg1169120

Whatever small chance we have at winning a title this year, we have an even smaller chance of getting an impact player that late in the draft.  

Here is my 15 man team from players taken after 22 in the draft.

C - Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan, Nikola Peckovic
PF - Carlos Boozer, David Lee, Luis Scola
SF - Gerald Wallace, Nicholas Batum, Tayshaun Prince
SG - Manu Ginobli, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin
PG - Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Louis Williams

I think I could realistically compete for a title with that team even without the A+ superstar that you often need.  


Here are just a sampling of players that weren't good enough for my 3 deep depth chart

C - Samuel Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, Joel Anthony, Nenad Krstic, Omer Asik, ZaZa Pachulia
PF - Paul Millsap, Anderson Varejao, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Carl Landry, Mehmet Okur, Amir Johnson, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Taj Gibson, Andrew Blatche
SF - Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Kenneth Faried, Josh Howard, Kyle Korver, Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Marcus Thornton, Landry Fields, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen, Deshaun Stevenson, Marshon Brooks
PG - Maurice Williams, Mario Chalmers, Ramon Sessions, Jeremy Lin, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, Jarret Jack, Derek Fisher, Gilbert Arenas, Earl Watson

Probably not a contender from that group, but you could probably piece together a playoff team from that collection of players.

Yes. I am well aware that it happens. However those are very much the exceptions, not the rule. (I'd also argue that part of that wealth of talent came from a disparity in overseas scouting by some teams which had since closed...meaning if Manu or Parker were comIng out today, they wouldn't slip).

All that aside, my point remains, for every one Carlos Boozer who slips there are 20 J. R. Giddens (and that is probably conservative). Is it really worth dealing Ray and all that comes with him (the money and fun of one last hoorah AND the fact they we still hold his rights this summer) for the outside shot we happen to get the next Manu Ginoboli when it is far more likely we get the next Marcus Banks?

And while all those player you list are good players, none are truly great. Hypothetically that team could get lucky like the '04 Pistons and eke out a title, but the fact remains that 95% of the time (it not more) in the NBA you need a transcendent player to win it all (Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG) and none of those guys are.

True, they aren't, but you don't get those players unless you are bad.  Without making any trades, the Celtics aren't really bad and thus won't be in a position to take a transcendant player.  The Celtics should have either blown it up and got whatever they could (and sped up the rebuilding process) or they should have gone all in.  The status quo just means the team delays rebuilding and also doesn't fully capitalize on the finals years of the stars.  The Celtics needed to commit to a course of action, something they didn't do.  The status quo isn't good enough (and I have been saying this since last summer on this board so it isn't monday morning quarterbacking).

[Jon]

I totally don't understand what the OP and people of the same opinion are thinking.  What exactly is some late first round pick going to get us?  Nearly every late first round pick is either a role player or out of the league in under 5 years.  

To see more, see my post on the #22 pick in the Epic Fail Thread:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=54595.msg1169120#msg1169120

Whatever small chance we have at winning a title this year, we have an even smaller chance of getting an impact player that late in the draft.  

Here is my 15 man team from players taken after 22 in the draft.

C - Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan, Nikola Peckovic
PF - Carlos Boozer, David Lee, Luis Scola
SF - Gerald Wallace, Nicholas Batum, Tayshaun Prince
SG - Manu Ginobli, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin
PG - Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Louis Williams

I think I could realistically compete for a title with that team even without the A+ superstar that you often need.  


Here are just a sampling of players that weren't good enough for my 3 deep depth chart

C - Samuel Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, Joel Anthony, Nenad Krstic, Omer Asik, ZaZa Pachulia
PF - Paul Millsap, Anderson Varejao, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Carl Landry, Mehmet Okur, Amir Johnson, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Taj Gibson, Andrew Blatche
SF - Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Kenneth Faried, Josh Howard, Kyle Korver, Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Marcus Thornton, Landry Fields, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen, Deshaun Stevenson, Marshon Brooks
PG - Maurice Williams, Mario Chalmers, Ramon Sessions, Jeremy Lin, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, Jarret Jack, Derek Fisher, Gilbert Arenas, Earl Watson

Probably not a contender from that group, but you could probably piece together a playoff team from that collection of players.

Yes. I am well aware that it happens. However those are very much the exceptions, not the rule. (I'd also argue that part of that wealth of talent came from a disparity in overseas scouting by some teams which had since closed...meaning if Manu or Parker were comIng out today, they wouldn't slip).

All that aside, my point remains, for every one Carlos Boozer who slips there are 20 J. R. Giddens (and that is probably conservative). Is it really worth dealing Ray and all that comes with him (the money and fun of one last hoorah AND the fact they we still hold his rights this summer) for the outside shot we happen to get the next Manu Ginoboli when it is far more likely we get the next Marcus Banks?

And while all those player you list are good players, none are truly great. Hypothetically that team could get lucky like the '04 Pistons and eke out a title, but the fact remains that 95% of the time (it not more) in the NBA you need a transcendent player to win it all (Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG) and none of those guys are.

True, they aren't, but you don't get those players unless you are bad.  Without making any trades, the Celtics aren't really bad and thus won't be in a position to take a transcendant player.  The Celtics should have either blown it up and got whatever they could (and sped up the rebuilding process) or they should have gone all in.  The status quo just means the team delays rebuilding and also doesn't fully capitalize on the finals years of the stars.  The Celtics needed to commit to a course of action, something they didn't do.  The status quo isn't good enough (and I have been saying this since last summer on this board so it isn't monday morning quarterbacking).

I'll grant you that if Danny had traded Ray or all of the Big Three for some late first round draft picks, our future might be slightly brighter.  However, you--and others--are being dramatic and hyperbolic to call this a "debacle." 

I really think a lot of this overreaction is a byproduct of the crazy trade proposals people actually thought were possible.  It seems everyone and his brother thought that JO, Wilcox, and Dooling (and if we ABSOLUTELY have to, a second round pick!) would net us an impact player, now or down the line.  Consequently, when nothing came to fruition, there was major disappointment.  People need to wake up.  We weren't going to get the next cornerstones of the future for the Big Three at this stage of the game.  Now we need to stop pretending that if we traded the Big Three for late first round picks (or as some are suggesting, second round picks) we were assured to magically find the next Manu Ginoboli and Carlos Boozer. 

We also have no idea what Danny was actually being offered or what he actually has planned.  The Big Three all have substantial contracts.  How do we know that all of the first round picks that we imagine he was offered didn't also involve us taking back significant salary beyond this year that would have negatively impacted DA's plans.  We also don't know if Chris Kaman will be bought out within the next week and end up in Beantown, proving why Danny didn't make a deal. 

Finally, as I said before, I think money played a big part in all of this, and quite frankly I don't blame Wyc.  Wyc has been more than generous and willing to spend over his tenure here.  But here's what people need to reaize:

Boston has the HIGHEST payroll in the NBA at over 87 million dollars. 

Trading the Big Three would require us to take nearly as much money back as we give up, so that number wouldn't be going down by much no matter what we did.  Do people honestly expect Wyc to blow the team up, keep an 85+ million dollar payroll, lose out on ticket sales the rest of the season, lose out on playoff revenue, all in the name of some late first or second round picks and so our current first round pick could move up a few spots? 

I have no doubt in my mind Wyc would've bit the bullet and done it have the Celtics actually been offered a legitimate cornerstone for the future.  However, I don't think any of us can expect him to bit the bullet on so slight of an upgrade that is more likely to mean nothing 5 years from now than actually pan out.