Today's Knicks game is why you don't trade Rajon Rondo

[Moranis]

18 pts 20 assists 17 boards...and only 4 TOs.  Fourth triple double of the season.  The only other player to ever have 15+ / 15+ /15+ triple double in the history of the NBA is Jason Kid (x2).

 I have no idea where you got this from, but it is absolutely not factual at all.

Most likely, it needs the qualifier of "since 1985-86", since that is how far the data on basketball-reference.com goes.  My own list of 10-20 games earlier in this thread needs the same qualifer.

November 20, 1993.  Shaq 24 points, 28 rebounds, 15 blocks.

[OmarSekou]

Not being intentionally dense at all. He can be a great passer and it can help you in the open court or steal a couple cheap buckets agame. He also takes tons of unnecessary risks with the ball and over passes that leads to turnovers.(great example his 2 on 1 with Ray vs a decaying barron davis today that was just a disaster) His passing is elite, but his passing does not win games at the highest level of competition because it isnt balanced out by the rest of his game.

Does that clarify my stance enough?

It's  unbalanced in his favor. His passing does win games at the highest level. He's a highly efficient risk taker. That's a huge reason why the Celtics have been so good in the Big 3 era. You saw the 1 pass he lost to Baron, but what's his conversion percentage on 2on1 fast breaks? I'm guessing it's pretty high. And while you focus on that turnover, there were at least 10 plays he made that very few other guys in the league could have that got us points. Those aren't cheap buckets. That's winning basketball.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Now ad in IF Rondo got the calls Derrick Rose gets...and why shouldn't he....it would be a lot diff...!!!

[OsirusCeltics]

Maybe it was just me, but I thought  Rondo took Jeremy Lin to School and showed him "can't do this ...my house!"

Rondo is the anti-thesis to Jeremy Lin
Rondo thrives in the full court, Lin thrives in the half court

  Lin has little idea how to play the point. There were at least 3-4 times where Rondo was guarding Amare or Melo on the block and Lin just went about his business with no recognition of the mismatch whatsoever.

All I saw in the 4th quarter when the game slowed down in the half-court was Rondo missing easy layups and mid-range shots, while the lead dwindled. And saw Lin playing the pick and roll perfectly and making shots when the Knicks needed it

[OsirusCeltics]

Look, lin is pretty good..but he is NO RONDO..so knock that talk off....please....

Well Lin is better in a HALF COURT SETTING

[BballTim]

Maybe it was just me, but I thought  Rondo took Jeremy Lin to School and showed him "can't do this ...my house!"

Rondo is the anti-thesis to Jeremy Lin
Rondo thrives in the full court, Lin thrives in the half court

  Lin has little idea how to play the point. There were at least 3-4 times where Rondo was guarding Amare or Melo on the block and Lin just went about his business with no recognition of the mismatch whatsoever.

All I saw in the 4th quarter when the game slowed down in the half-court was Rondo missing easy layups and mid-range shots, while the lead dwindled. And saw Lin playing the pick and roll perfectly and making shots when the Knicks needed it

  I'm sure that's all you saw, Lin was, what, 1-7 in overtime? I can see why that would escape your attention...

[BballTim]

Look, lin is pretty good..but he is NO RONDO..so knock that talk off....please....

Well Lin is better in a HALF COURT SETTING

  The guy had trouble completing passes in a HALF COURT SETTING. Not that something like that matters for a point guard...

[OsirusCeltics]

Look, lin is pretty good..but he is NO RONDO..so knock that talk off....please....

Well Lin is better in a HALF COURT SETTING

  The guy had trouble completing passes in a HALF COURT SETTING. Not that something like that matters for a point guard...

So what exactly does Rondo do in a half court setting?
Please don't be blinded by Rondo's full court prowess

[Carhole]

Rondo misses a ton of easy layups, almost all of his shots are open. The issue is the trend of it happening in all close games. And the fact that the trend is so established that other  teams defensive strategy is to completely cave off him in any reasonably close 4th quarter, and it works.

But the fact that he scored in OT out weighs the reality that everybody has seen enough video that it is an established strategy, you are right.

And if PP doesnt hit an off balance 3, OT never happens. Was he intentionally saving it for over time?

Shooting 60% at the rim is considered missing a ton of easy layups? Alright.

And I never said that Rondo doesn't have trouble scoring in the 4th...I think that's well established not only with him, but with the whole team. I just think it's ridiculous to put all the blame on one player.

Why when it is the one person handling the ball, who gets all of the credit when the teams offense runs well?

If Rondo is the "engine that makes the celtics go and its most important player" then who else gets the blame when the engine stalls out?

And percentages are subject to other circumstances. For instance he is actually not god awful on a percentage bases from 18ft but he is also the only player in the nba that gets to take those shots almost completely wide open. Yeah there is a difference shooting x percent on 18fters with time to take a dribble and step into it as opposed shooting x percent on the move, off a jab step, or off a curl with a player underneath you and not sagging into the lane to prevent angles for teammates

  I think you need to watch more basketball if you think Rondo's the only player in the league who takes wide open long jumpers.

Getting testy if that, i dont even know if i would call it a cheap shot" is your response.

Tons of other players do, but no "Hall of Famer to be" is intentionally defended that way to give the opposition the best chance of victory.

If you can show me the game film of that I would love to see it.

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

[OmarSekou]

Can't believe this has gotten to a comparison between Lin and Rondo. Lin isn't comparable to Rondo in the half court or open court.

Rondo is great because whenever he has the ball a defender has to think: is he going to drive or shoot? Then when he beats his man the next defender has to think: is he going to score or pass? Rondo is exceptional at making the right decision.

What teams do when they sag off Rondo in the 4th is they limit Rondo to shooting. He's about a 50-60% shooter of those open looks, which isn't good enough in tight games when every point matters.

[Carhole]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

He is a ton of fun to watch and incredibly unique but I would prefer he not be as much fun and be really good at icing games and creating opportunities for people when you have to have the points

[BballTim]

Rondo misses a ton of easy layups, almost all of his shots are open. The issue is the trend of it happening in all close games. And the fact that the trend is so established that other  teams defensive strategy is to completely cave off him in any reasonably close 4th quarter, and it works.

But the fact that he scored in OT out weighs the reality that everybody has seen enough video that it is an established strategy, you are right.

And if PP doesnt hit an off balance 3, OT never happens. Was he intentionally saving it for over time?

Shooting 60% at the rim is considered missing a ton of easy layups? Alright.

And I never said that Rondo doesn't have trouble scoring in the 4th...I think that's well established not only with him, but with the whole team. I just think it's ridiculous to put all the blame on one player.

Why when it is the one person handling the ball, who gets all of the credit when the teams offense runs well?

If Rondo is the "engine that makes the celtics go and its most important player" then who else gets the blame when the engine stalls out?

And percentages are subject to other circumstances. For instance he is actually not god awful on a percentage bases from 18ft but he is also the only player in the nba that gets to take those shots almost completely wide open. Yeah there is a difference shooting x percent on 18fters with time to take a dribble and step into it as opposed shooting x percent on the move, off a jab step, or off a curl with a player underneath you and not sagging into the lane to prevent angles for teammates

  I think you need to watch more basketball if you think Rondo's the only player in the league who takes wide open long jumpers.

Getting testy if that, i dont even know if i would call it a cheap shot" is your response.

Tons of other players do, but no "Hall of Famer to be" is intentionally defended that way to give the opposition the best chance of victory.

If you can show me the game film of that I would love to see it.

  Yes, I can't imagine anyone noticed your change from every player in the nba to future HOFers.

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

  Haha. I'd guess you weren't following the team in 2010, when we were leading in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals. If we can come that close, it's obviously possible.

[Carhole]

Rondo misses a ton of easy layups, almost all of his shots are open. The issue is the trend of it happening in all close games. And the fact that the trend is so established that other  teams defensive strategy is to completely cave off him in any reasonably close 4th quarter, and it works.

But the fact that he scored in OT out weighs the reality that everybody has seen enough video that it is an established strategy, you are right.

And if PP doesnt hit an off balance 3, OT never happens. Was he intentionally saving it for over time?

Shooting 60% at the rim is considered missing a ton of easy layups? Alright.

And I never said that Rondo doesn't have trouble scoring in the 4th...I think that's well established not only with him, but with the whole team. I just think it's ridiculous to put all the blame on one player.

Why when it is the one person handling the ball, who gets all of the credit when the teams offense runs well?

If Rondo is the "engine that makes the celtics go and its most important player" then who else gets the blame when the engine stalls out?

And percentages are subject to other circumstances. For instance he is actually not god awful on a percentage bases from 18ft but he is also the only player in the nba that gets to take those shots almost completely wide open. Yeah there is a difference shooting x percent on 18fters with time to take a dribble and step into it as opposed shooting x percent on the move, off a jab step, or off a curl with a player underneath you and not sagging into the lane to prevent angles for teammates

  I think you need to watch more basketball if you think Rondo's the only player in the league who takes wide open long jumpers.

Getting testy if that, i dont even know if i would call it a cheap shot" is your response.

Tons of other players do, but no "Hall of Famer to be" is intentionally defended that way to give the opposition the best chance of victory.

If you can show me the game film of that I would love to see it.

  Yes, I can't imagine anyone noticed your change from every player in the nba to future HOFers.

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

  Haha. I'd guess you weren't following the team in 2010, when we were leading in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals. If we can come that close, it's obviously possible.

1 - if your argument is that rondo is an above average NBA player than I will give that to you all day long. In fact he is a good nba player. But that isnt your arguement BBallRondo. You are on here trumpeting his greatness constantly. Great players are not the liability rondo has. Again no need to "notice" any changes I made. I am 100% consistent on my rondo position.

Secondly, Rondo was not the second best player on that team. PP and KG were that team. And by the way, did we win that game?

Or did a big lead slip away because after the first 3 qtrs they started doubling kg on the block and pp 40ft from the hoop after he bury the 3 from the top of the arch and let rondo sit out top dribbling the ball daring him to drive or score?

Good thing rondo could create all of those scoring opportunities and perfect passes when he wasnt even being covered and Kobe was gobbling up defensive boards like he was Elvin Hayes

[BballTim]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

  There are (from hoopdata) 26 point guards that have played in 20 or more games and average  30+ minutes a game. Rondo's 15th in TS% in that list. The average TS% for that group is 53.4, Rondo's at 52.4. He was over 54% in 08-09 and 09-10. Hardly horrible, far from grossly inefficient. I guess being a "fan boy" means having a realistic idea of how Rondo compares to other players.

[BballTim]

But that isnt your arguement BBallRondo.

  If we're attacking user names, it's fairly fitting that yours ends in "hole". If you want to talk basketball, let me know.